26 réponses à ce sujet

[TheLostwhisperer]

So pardon while my mind wondered down a rabbit hole.

How inbred are the Dalish elves?

[Master Warder Z_]

Presumably? 

 

Note this all speculation on part, but you have had the wandering clans since shortly after the fall of the Dales, and that was centuries before DA, so...quite a bit for the older clans i'd assume. I suppose you could exchange people, and take on new one's but that's rare, according to the elves themselves so...All in all, when you have a clan of a few dozen people or so just living for century after century together, i'd assume it would be getting pretty bad by this point.

 

But in truth, that's more of a long term issue then many would think about, and it's casual degradation of the genetic pool, it is as if its direct from parent to offspring and then offspring to offspring, its about like classical European nobility, cousins marrying cousins and all. It's just been happening for centuries.

[Eveangaline]

Well depends on how often they get new elves from other places, how big each clan is (keep in mind what we see in game is probably just a tiny representation. Same way the cities have barely any people in them), how often marriages happen in just one little clan (the clans meet up every few years, don't they?)

[LobselVith8]

So pardon while my mind wondered down a rabbit hole.

How inbred are the Dalish elves?

 

Considering that the clans get an influx of elves from the Alienage or the Circles who don't want to be part of the community (like Pol and Aneirin), and the exchange of different members when the clan meets for the annual Arlathvenn (like Merrill), I don't think that's an issue. As opposed to Tevinter, which seems to intentionally do that.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think the clans may exchange members from time to time.

[Master Warder Z_]

Considering that the clans get an influx of elves from the Alienage or the Circles who don't want to be part of the community (like Pol and Aneirin), and the exchange of different members when the clan meets for the annual Arlathvenn (like Merrill), I don't think that's an issue. As opposed to Tevinter, which seems to intentionally do that.

 

The City Elves, themselves admit that the occasional elf runs off to find the Dalish, and how they return.

 

Add in that escaped circle mages are tracked and killed by Templars usually as well, and that isn't a steady way to increase population either.

 

And the Arlathvenn at most takes place once a decade, it seems to sketch for periods when its even longer then that however, so ultimately you really can't cite much to disprove they aren't. 

 

Hence my notion that, they are, genetic material being passed around from the same clan for a few centuries results in it.

 

At least there aren't any Banjo's though, i don't think i could take it.

[dragonflight288]

So pardon while my mind wondered down a rabbit hole.

How inbred are the Dalish elves?

 

Probably a lot less than the Dwarven nobles. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Probably a lot less than the Dwarven nobles. 

 

I will agree with you there.

[Daerog]

It's not like their genetics are "normal" to start with. Being "very adaptive."

[teenparty]

I don't think inbreeding is as dangerous as it's made out to be. If you marry your double cousin, you don't really share that many genes. Every new member of the clan would bring a completely unique set of genes. Humans have historically lived in small, fairly isolated communities or as part of nomad groups.

 

For example: Most Native Americans aren't dimwits riddled with genetically transferable diseases. 

[Gervaise]

I think the clan in Masked Empire was around 50 members and this is probably the norm.      From what we have seen they seem to practice monogamy so whilst this wouldn't be ideal and there isn't genetic diversity that you would get in a larger gene pool, it probably is sufficient that you don't get very close in breeding, first cousins and the like.   It would have to be very carefully managed though.   Part of the reason for the 10 year get together is probably to swap in some new blood.

 

Then again, may be they do not have the same problem with genetic defects as occur in our world.   May be magic counteracts it in some way.    In breeding is only a bad thing because of increasing the likelihood of genetic defects; if there are no genetic defects to worry about then they do not have a problem.

[Master Warder Z_]

It's not like their genetics are "normal" to start with. Being "very adaptive."

 

Heh i like that. Its a good thing i think.

 

Being able to bring humans into the world despite being an elf.

[Gervaise]

Actually it occurs to me that may be the problem has manifested itself in having less and less mages to be Keepers.   A mage doesn't necessarily produce a mage child every time anyway.   If the majority of the clan are non mages, then the majority of their children probably are as well.   Occasionally you get the right mix of recessives to produce a mage child to non mage parents but it isn't enough to make up the shortfall.     Hence the most common swap between clans is of surplus mage children.

 

After all in Tevinter they are specifically breeding to produce mages and even there they are still willing to welcome mages into the ranks of nobility from non-mage sources.   There was a time in the past when mages were not allowed to be in government but ruled from behind the scenes.    If there were only producing mages in the nobility, this would not have been possible, so there must always be a proportion of non-mages being born to mage parents even though they have been breeding selectively for magical ability for centuries.

[Roamingmachine]

So pardon while my mind wondered down a rabbit hole.

How inbred are the Dalish elves?

A lot less than human nobles.

[LobselVith8]

The City Elves, themselves admit that the occasional elf runs off to find the Dalish, and how they return.

 

Lanaya, Aneirin, Pol, and the former Circle mage mentioned by Ariane didn't return. There's no telling how many elves have left the Alienage or the Circle indefinitely to stay with the Dalish, but there's clearly a precedence of success.

 

Add in that escaped circle mages are tracked and killed by Templars usually as well, and that isn't a steady way to increase population either.

 

We have no actual data (not from the codex entries, the World of Thedas, or even the developers) as to how often the elven Circle mages are able to successfully evade the templars and join the Dalish; we do know that it's possible, however.

 

And the Arlathvenn at most takes place once a decade, it seems to sketch for periods when its even longer then that however, so ultimately you really can't cite much to disprove they aren't. 

 

The gathering of the clans takes place roughly every ten years, with most of the clans in attendance; it's why Ariane recognizes the Dalish Warden-Commander. That's a sufficient enough period of time for clan members to go to different clans for genetic diversity among the People.

 

Hence my notion that, they are, genetic material being passed around from the same clan for a few centuries results in it.

 

At least there aren't any Banjo's though, i don't think i could take it.

 

I don't share your pessimism on the matter, as you can clearly tell.

[Master Warder Z_]

Lanaya, Aneirin, Pol, and the former Circle mage mentioned by Ariane didn't return. There's no telling how many elves have left the Alienage or the Circle indefinitely to stay with the Dalish, but there's clearly a precedence of success.

 

 

We have no actual data (not from the codex entries, the World of Thedas, or even the developers) as to how often the elven Circle mages are able to successfully evade the templars and join the Dalish; we do know that it's possible, however.

 

 

The gathering of the clans takes place roughly every ten years, with most of the clans in attendance; it's why Ariane recognizes the Dalish Warden-Commander. That's a sufficient enough period of time for clan members to go to different clans for genetic diversity among the People.

 

 

I don't share your pessimism on the matter, as you can clearly tell.

 

Lanaya, didn't escape anything, so i wouldn't toss her into the  equation of incoming blood considering her situation is unique, furthermore i don't see suitors lining up for her, so is genetic viability even an outcome here? No offense to Pol, but i wouldn't want any one that stupid breeding and Aneirin isn't Dalish, so i don't think considering him a success story is much of one, considering he left near as soon as he was able.

 

Possible in one case thus far, two if you count the word of some Dalish girl who needs something from you. What we do know is, the Templar Order is fairly good at tracking down and killing escaped members of the circle.

 

Assuming, that they do indeed trade members between each other, but even if that is the case, another one or two women among an clan of fifty or so isn't going to improve diversity that much.

 

Pessimism? You mean Logic? 

[LobselVith8]

Lanaya, didn't escape anything, so i wouldn't toss her into the  equation of incoming blood considering her situation is unique, furthermore i don't see suitors lining up for her, so is genetic viability even an outcome here? No offense to Pol, but i wouldn't want any one that stupid breeding and Aneirin isn't Dalish, so i don't think considering him a success story is much of one, considering he left near as soon as he was able.

 

Lanaya escaped the human bandits who enslaved her with Zathrian's help (as he massacred them all), and she choose to remain with the Dalish instead of going into one of the Alienages. Aneirin is out on his own amongst nature (although he likes to stay close to the clan), but he embraced the Creators and Dalish culture; he is as Dalish as Merrill. And I don't see anyone expressing any disdain for Lanaya, so I don't see why you're even suggesting that no one would want to get romantically involved with her.

 

Possible in one case thus far, two if you count the word of some Dalish girl who needs something from you. What we do know is, the Templar Order is fairly good at tracking down and killing escaped members of the circle.

 

In other words, there's no evidence that elven Circle mages barely make it to the clans.

 

Assuming, that they do indeed trade members between each other, but even if that is the case, another one or two women among an clan of fifty or so isn't going to improve diversity that much.

 

Merrill is a precedent that the clans exchange members.

 

Pessimism? You mean Logic? 

 

You're pretty much speculating on the matter. Your imagination doesn't equate to actual facts.

[Zana]

Well, first we need to define the population size.  I highly doubt that the clans we see in DAO/DA2 show all members of the clan.  I suspect each clan is roughly 50-100 people, so inbreeding would not become a problem for several hundred years.  New blood from the runaway city elves can likely sustain reasonable genetic diversity almost indefinitely.

 

I suspect smaller alienages have far bigger inbreeding problems than Dalish elves do.  At least living conditions for the Dalish are reasonable, they have some new blood and no problems with losing births to elf-human pairings.  In DAO, Denerim's alienage seems to be in a fairly dismal state - betrothals at a very young age, declining numbers, etc.  And this is in the largest city in Ferelden.  Smaller cities will likely have even bigger issues.

 

And yes, human and dwarven nobility will likely have a lot more inbreeding issues!

[Master Warder Z_]

Lanaya escaped the human bandits who enslaved her with Zathrian's help (as he massacred them all), and she choose to remain with the Dalish instead of going into one of the Alienages. Aneirin is out on his own amongst nature (although he likes to stay close to the clan), but he embraced the Creators and Dalish culture; he is as Dalish as Merrill. And I don't see anyone expressing any disdain for Lanaya, so I don't see why you're even suggesting that no one would want to get romantically involved with her.

 

 

In other words, there's no evidence that elven Circle mages barely make it to the clans.

 

 

Merrill is a precedent that the clans exchange members.

 

 

You're pretty much speculating on the matter. Your imagination doesn't equate to actual facts.

 

Aneirnin plainly stated his time with the Dalish had ended, he isn't Dalish because he doesn't consider himself one. And Lanaya not being courted is exactly the point, if you cannot use genetic diversity, then why even cite it as being there?

 

In other words, there is no real evidence of them successfully escaping the circle, except in one case in which a rogue third party intervened. So yes, There is much to say on that, the Templars are effective at killing renegade mages, so excepting new fertile members from them is a long shot at best.

 

Merril is a prescident on a lot, but in this case, like Lanaya is merely untapped potential diversity, not of this is lending much credit to your argument.

 

I acknowledged it was speculation, But that said, Speculation can be logical; And i don't recall equating my logic with fact, that was something you crammed in there yourself to attempt to make your argument look better.

[Eveangaline]

Well, first we need to define the population size.  I highly doubt that the clans we see in DAO/DA2 show all members of the clan.  I suspect each clan is roughly 50-100 people, so inbreeding would not become a problem for several hundred years.  New blood from the runaway city elves can likely sustain reasonable genetic diversity almost indefinitely.

 

I suspect smaller alienages have far bigger inbreeding problems than Dalish elves do.  At least living conditions for the Dalish are reasonable, they have some new blood and no problems with losing births to elf-human pairings.  In DAO, Denerim's alienage seems to be in a fairly dismal state - betrothals at a very young age, declining numbers, etc.  And this is in the largest city in Ferelden.  Smaller cities will likely have even bigger issues.

 

And yes, human and dwarven nobility will likely have a lot more inbreeding issues!

 

The alianages have a system of betrothals specifically to fight inbreeding, they get betrothed to people from other alianages.

 

Dalish seem to let you pick who you marry, bu they probably trade people around at the meetups every few years so people have more options that aren't closely related.

 

 

 

Also, relating to the other conversation, why do we Assume Lanaya won't marry in the dalish because she doesn't mention seeing anyone to our warden? I mean for all we know she's already married. Or even if she does spend the rest of her days free of romance why is one person not having a kid change the fact that most elves who join the dalish for good probably will marry in the dalish?

[LobselVith8]

Aneirnin plainly stated his time with the Dalish had ended, he isn't Dalish because he doesn't consider himself one. And Lanaya not being courted is exactly the point, if you cannot use genetic diversity, then why even cite it as being there?

 

Aneirin doesn't say he doesn't consider himself one, he simply prefers to be out amongst nature, but even then he still likes to keep close to Zathrian's clan; he even uses 'gods' at one point. As for Lanaya, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

In other words, there is no real evidence of them successfully escaping the circle, except in one case in which a rogue third party intervened. So yes, There is much to say on that, the Templars are effective at killing renegade mages, so excepting new fertile members from them is a long shot at best.

 

I addressed there was a precedence for elven Circle mages making it to the clans, I never pretended to know how successful this was throughout the centuries because there's simply no information calculating how many attempts have been made, or how successful those attempts have been.

 

I acknowledged it was speculation, But that said, Speculation can be logical; And i don't recall equating my logic with fact, that was something you crammed in there yourself to attempt to make your argument look better.

 

You said it was logic when I pointed out your post was pessimistic, and I addressed that response and the connotation of your reply to me.

[Master Warder Z_]

Aneirin doesn't say he doesn't consider himself one, he simply prefers to be out amongst nature, but even then he still likes to keep close to Zathrian's clan; he even uses 'gods' at one point. As for Lanaya, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

 

I addressed there was a precedence for elven Circle mages making it to the clans, I never pretended to know how successful this was throughout the centuries because there's simply no information calculating how many attempts have been made, or how successful those attempts have been.

 

 

You said it was logic when I pointed out your post was pessimistic, and I addressed that response and the connotation of your reply to me.

 

he will explain that he feels neither being part of the Circle nor the Dalish, instead, he likes to be alone in the forest. He can also heal the party's wounds.

http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Aneirin

 

Because my speculation is logical, i looked at the picture logically, i achieved what i did by going over the lore, and assuming variables and going over what little is known on the subject and ultimately came to the conclusion genetic diversity among stagnant population isn't sustainable , you labeling it pessimism and then later claiming it to be my imagination does not make it a connotation.

 

Beyond that i think we are done here. 

[LobselVith8]

he will explain that he feels neither being part of the Circle nor the Dalish, instead, he likes to be alone in the forest. He can also heal the party's wounds.

http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Aneirin

 

Aneirin's actual dialogue from Origins states that he doesn't feel he belongs with the clan or the Circle; that doesn't make him any less Dalish than Merrill when it's clear he's still culturally Dalish, particularly as he identifies the Creators as his gods and not the Maker.

 

Because my speculation is logical, i looked at the picture logically, i achieved what i did by going over the lore, and assuming variables and going over what little is known on the subject and ultimately came to the conclusion genetic diversity among stagnant population isn't sustainable , you labeling it pessimism and then later claiming it to be my imagination does not make it a connotation.

 

Beyond that i think we are done here. 

 

Your speculation is based on conjecture about how many times exchanges among the clan happen and how few Circle mages make it to the clans; it's also why I address your speculation as pessimism.

[Master Warder Z_]

Aneirin's actual dialogue from Origins states that he doesn't feel he belongs with the clan or the Circle; that doesn't make him any less Dalish than Merrill when it's clear he's still culturally Dalish, particularly as he identifies the Creators as his gods and not the Maker.

 

 

Your speculation is based on conjecture about how many times exchanges among the clan happen and how few Circle mages make it to the clans; it's also why I address your speculation as pessimism.

 

._. His actual dialogue indicate what i said from the beginning, He doesn't identify as Dalish and him stating "Gods" in plural rather then singular doesn't mean much, holding to a particular pantheon doesn't make you culturally anything. Spirituality isn't culture.

 

So basically your opinion, on something and an incorrect labeling and usage of the word connotation, good to know.

 

Also belief in low odds is baseless pessimism? its the support of mathematical averaging.

[LobselVith8]

._. His actual dialogue indicate what i said from the beginning, He doesn't identify as Dalish and him stating "Gods" in plural rather then singular doesn't mean much, holding to a particular pantheon doesn't make you culturally anything. Spirituality isn't culture.

 

Aneirin says he doesn't feel as though he belongs with the clan, not that he doesn't see himself as Dalish. His word usage also indicates a Dalish mindset as he believes in the Creators, which demonstrates he's still culturally Dalish. It's no different with Merrill, who is still Dalish despite feeling that she doesn't belong with the Sabrae Clan anymore.

 

Also belief in low odds is baseless pessimism? its the support of mathematical averaging.

 

When the mathematical calculations are based on numbers you came up straight from your imagination, I'll call it pessimism.