91 réponses à ce sujet

[Amfortas]

I personally play with tactics disabled since I like having full control, but I think it's a good idea, even if it goes against my definition of fun. The more possible ways to enjoy the game the better.

I have a hard time believing this could work with friendly fire on however.

[spacediscosaurus]

I have a hard time believing this could work with friendly fire on however.

 

Not any worse than how the tactics work with friendly fire already.

 

I personally don't put any moves that cause friendly fire in tactics. My tactics are mostly for sustains and who to target next. Everything else I activate and place manually. I just wish that the currently selected character would also follow the tactics of who to target next, so that I don't have to constantly watch them to make sure they're not just standing still. I have better things to focus on.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Infinity Engine games are meant to be front-loaded with difficulty, and after a specific point in the game (with sufficient planning) the rest of the game is very easy. DA:O had this problem, but it was mainly because some very overpowered skills were gated behind prerequisite stats and levels. DA:2, despite its shortcomings, had an arguably superior challenge progression, with the game actually getting harder as you progress instead of easier.

I prefer the older design. The game should get easier as a reward for having built your party well.

Punishing me for advancing through the game is entirely the wrong way to go.

l'm a bit confused by this. Are you asking for more control over the party, or less?

More. But that includes being able to enable tactics as I see fit.

I'll also take the time to remind you that, if you are in complete control of a character, the responsibility for the behavior of he character is yours as well, and giving you the option to release control of all characters is the only state in which game behavior is based solely on decisions the game makes for you (through tactics).

If I have the camera focused on one character to determine, for example, whether the attack animations take too long for his tactics to work effectively, I must (with the current design) have some other party member selected. My attention isn't on that character, however.

I want more options to control the party.

Could you elaborate on this a bit?

The DA2 difficulty levels were described as such:

Casual - control one character
Normal - control one character optimally
Hard - control the whole party
Nightmare - control the whole party optimally

That gives the player a good idea of the level of engagement each setting is expected to require. Now, I would only be deselecting everyone occasionally (I wouldn't want to play the whole game that way, just as no one plays the whole game with all of the party members selected, but that's still something we're allowed to do), but depending how well I think my tactics work and how willing I am to intervene, that informs my choice of difficulty.

I almost always play on Hard, because I do control the whole party, but I RP it, and the characters don't always make good decisions.

[Pateu]

Yeah... this would be quite cool and easy to do, since you already have tactics for your character.

[TurretSyndrome]

Not any worse than how the tactics work with friendly fire already.

 

I personally don't put any moves that cause friendly fire in tactics. My tactics are mostly for sustains and who to target next. Everything else I activate and place manually. I just wish that the currently selected character would also follow the tactics of who to target next, so that I don't have to constantly watch them to make sure they're not just standing still. I have better things to focus on.

 

Hmmm... I'm the opposite. I try to perfect the AI tactics in such a way that they are self sufficient for the most part. I spend a lot of time trying to get the AI to use their abilities at the right time, even switch between sustained effects. I even remember getting Anders to perfectly switch between Vengeance and Spirit Healer. Setting up complex commands for the characters through Tactics was one of few things I deeply enjoyed doing in DA 2.

 

While I was doing this, I noticed how amazingly fast AI can be at executing these commands. We, as players, might not notice some things on screen like sudden explosions from traps, fireballs and other spells, but AI do, and they respond almost immediately. It would be a waste if we could not be allowed to make use of AI on our own character.

 

 

I have a hard time believing this could work with friendly fire on however.

 

It's tricky. You need a good bit of knowledge on how to utilize Tactics the best way. Here's a combination I love:

Fenris surrounded by atleast three enemies -> Stonewall

Varric sees a cluster of three enemies(enemies around Fenris are seen as cluster) -> Bursting Arrow

 

Basically, every time Varric sees Fenris being surrounded by three enemies, he targets that area for bursting arrow while Fenris activates Stonewall and waits for the Bursting Arrow. It's simple but works amazingly well. I have seen these two execute these talents in this order 90% of the time. 

[Ophir147]

I prefer the older design. The game should get easier as a reward for having built your party well.

Punishing me for advancing through the game is entirely the wrong way to go.

 

Challenge is not and has never been punishment, and the game is easier if you have built your party well. This rewards the same kind of forward thinking that DA:O and Bioware legacy games encourage while also presenting a noticeable challenge curve that keeps people who enjoy the combat entertained.

 

With that, I'm probably going to bow out of the discussion because I realize I have probably spent a lot more time chatting about this topic than my actual interest in it warrants. 

 

I'll just say what I said in the beginning and say that I still think that this is a silly thing to want, but I am not worried in the least that this will ever be an option (beyond mods) in part because of partial development for consoles, but mostly because it just seems backwards to the idea of the series as it has been presented thus far.

 

On the off chance that this is actually implemented, it probably wouldn't bother me much as I usually control the entire party and, as long as it isn't something annoying like deselecting the entire party every time I accidentally left or right click on the ground I could easily ignore it. As long as the combat stays challenging and dynamic at higher difficulties I won't shed any tears about a new method of playing(..?) the game being added.

[The Night Haunter]

Not a high priority for me since I love controlling 'me'. But I certainly would't object to it being included, and might use it from time to time. When I got bored in FF12 I'd turn on auto tactics and watch tv while running through a dungeon, lol.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Challenge is not and has never been punishment

It certainly isn't a reward.

 

Your boss doesn't say to you, "Great job.  As a reward, I'm going to cut your salary to make your life that much more of a struggle."

[JWvonGoethe]

I use a mix of pause and play and tactics, but I totally support this as a feature and would probably use it on a playthrough if it was included. Honestly if there was there was a custom designed "Sylvius Mode" featuring all of his/her many suggestions then I'd love to give it a shot.

[Wulfram]

It certainly isn't a reward.

 

Your boss doesn't say to you, "Great job.  As a reward, I'm going to cut your salary to make your life that much more of a struggle."

 

But your boss might give you a promotion to a more challenging role, if you do a good job.  You don't leave your best employees stacking shelves because it's nice and easy for them.

[Amfortas]

You may not know (I've never heard anyone but myself mention it), but DA has "combat behaviors" that govern how your character responds to things like AoE attacks. While it would be better to be able to set these things (things like pre-emptively attacking an enemy, or running after them if they flee, or fleeing an AoE zone) specifically and individually, there's still enough power to be able to set your characters to avoid AoE attacks, which would account for friendly fire.

 

To be honest, since I've never been interested in tactics I haven't experienced these things, but can the AI be programed to properly use a cone of cold without freezing your team mates? does it refrain from using winter's gasp if there's an ally beside the enemy? does it make sure there are no allies on the way before using archer's lance?

 

It certainly isn't a reward.

 

Your boss doesn't say to you, "Great job.  As a reward, I'm going to cut your salary to make your life that much more of a struggle."

 

The fact that some challenges are unpleasant doesn't mean that of all them have to be so.

[TurretSyndrome]

To be honest, since I've never been interested in tactics I haven't experienced these things, but can the AI be programed to properly use a cone of cold without freezing your team mates? does it refrain from using winter's gasp if there's an ally beside the enemy? does it make sure there are no allies on the way before using archer's lance?

 

AI can only sense and "move away" from the AoE attacks which are DoT. The AI can't predict or "see" an attack like "Archer's Lance" coming its way like a player can. It is one of the limitations of AI Tactics.

[Sylvius the Mad]

But your boss might give you a promotion to a more challenging role, if you do a good job. You don't leave your best employees stacking shelves because it's nice and easy for them.

More interesting, perhaps. I don't see how challenging, in and of itself, is positive.

A promotion tends to come with higher pay and greater autonomy. Those I would certainly count as rewards.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AI can only sense and "move away" from the AoE attacks which are DoT. The AI can't predict or "see" an attack like "Archer's Lance" coming its way like a player can. It is one of the limitations of AI Tactics.

Why not? If the evidence of the impending AoE actually exists in the game, the enemies can be scripted to react to it.

[TurretSyndrome]

I think Turret is saying that's the way things ARE, not that it's the way they should be (it's a limit of the AI tactics previous games had, not a limit of AI tactics in general). Just guessing though.

 

Yeah, that's what I meant(which is why I wrote Tactics with a T). I think it would be nice if at least the friendly AI can do this. For example, Fenris moves away from the region where Archer's Lance will hit. It would make them seem less idiotic.

 

I don't know about enemies though. Imagine an enemy reacting to your AoE and immediately moving away with whatever kind of talent he's got to move away from that area as quickly as possible(like a mage using that teleport or a warrior using dodge roll). I don't think it would be fair.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It does bring in the issue of human response time. And I'm not sure there's an easy resolution, outside of simply #DealWithIt*.

Auto-pause options.

Auto-pause deals with the issue of human response time quite well.

[TurretSyndrome]

Auto-pause options.

Auto-pause deals with the issue of human response time quite well.

 

Don't forget that bullet time mechanic which further suppresses the problem. So you won't need to pause but still get the breathing room. You know what would be nice? A slider for the slow-time button. Real time <--------> Pause. Would be great.

[Deflagratio]

More interesting, perhaps. I don't see how challenging, in and of itself, is positive.

A promotion tends to come with higher pay and greater autonomy. Those I would certainly count as rewards.

 

Challenge is really the only fuel for growth. The opportunity to have that challenge to grow yourself off of is a positive effect that doesn't exist without the challenge itself. Pushing thresholds is a guiding principle between physical conditioning and mental conditioning.

 

I'm not sure if this ticks all your semantic boxes, but it's the best I can think of right now.

[Sylvius the Mad]

What about my asterisk?

You and I might be able to discount them, but Bioware can't.

Edit: Well, won't, I should say.

If they cared about the issue of human response time, they wouldn't be action players.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Challenge is really the only fuel for growth. The opportunity to have that challenge to grow yourself off of is a positive effect that doesn't exist without the challenge itself. Pushing thresholds is a guiding principle between physical conditioning and mental conditioning.

I'm not sure if this ticks all your semantic boxes, but it's the best I can think of right now.

Even if what you say is true, and even if we assume that every player wants to grow, they might not want to grow in that way.

I find my roleplaying to be mentally challenging, but having punishing combat on top of that would just get in the way.

And I enjoy getting rewarded for my efforts. Extra challenge seems like punishment more tha reward. This is also the basis for my objection to scaled content.