475 réponses à ce sujet

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Gaspard all the way. Celene isn't nearly as good as she thinks she is and the plight of elves is a very small concerned compared to the survival of the entire world.

[rolson00]

Gaspard all the way. Celene isn't nearly as good as she thinks she is and the plight of elves is a very small concerned compared to the survival of the entire world.

Even the Duke said that he may need the Elves and the whole theme of the book is leading up to the elves being the ones to decide the fate of Orlias not the world so every where else is fine i guess

[Mistic]

Wait wait since when it was sadistic choice?

Harrowmont didn't had anything to offer no single positive thing when behlen not only was competent but also improved many things.

 

True, I agree that Bhelen was overall the best option for Orzammar, so maybe I should have chosen other word. Personally, though, he was a treacherous, manipulative bastard, a resentful tyrant, and if we didn't have the epilogues telling us the consequences of his rule, I'm sure that less people would have chosen him.

 

The idea was that each candidate in the Orlesian Civil War can have many apparent good points about something, and then very bad points about another thing, just like Bhelen and Harrowmont. So maybe asking for a candidate who is honest, nice, true to their word, peaceful in general yet not afraid of using the force to defend their country, a good diplomat, beloved by their subjects, a reformer, an equalist who will give more rights to the elves and the lower classes, etc. is too much.

[Palidane]

Wait wait since when it was sadistic choice?

Harrowmont didn't had anything to offer no single positive thing when behlen not only was competent but also improved many things.

Bhelens great as long as you don't mind the murder of anyone who disagrees with him. Totalitarian dictatorship for the win!

 

I saw Celene in a very different light before reading the book, and after finishing it support her all the way. In many ways I think she would be a better catalyst for improving the lives of city elves than Briala, who I cannot forgive for her actions at the end of the book. 

Wait, what did Briala do? Are you saying Celene, the women who killed thousands of elves because of a few sniggers in court cares more about the elves than Briala?

 

Have people even read the book?!, because this is not the first time I've seen this. 

 

Why would Gaspard give the elves rights and Celene take them away when in the book it was the complete opposite? Celene was the one trying to give elves more rights and Gaspard didn't care about them whatsoever.

Gaspard will give the city elves rights if they prove themselves. Like, say, in a massive reality-saving struggle. Celene will give them rights until she encounters opposition, and then abandon them.

[Ianamus]

 

Wait, what did Briala do? Are you saying Celene, the women who killed thousands of elves because of a few sniggers in court cares more about the elves than Briala?

 

I'm saying that she's far more able to make lasting changes to the lives of elves, since she actually has power. 

 

Briala refused a perfect opportunity to change the status-quo and work within the system to improve the lives of elves. More importantly she deliberately dragged out the war, which will cost hundreds if not thousands of human lives. 

[dragonflight288]

I went in not knowing much about either. 

 

After reading it, I don't support either of them. Gaspard sticks to his guns and seems competent, but he's also really set in his ways and has no problems with chevalier's butchering elves as a right of passage, especially since he's a chevalier himself. His honor simply gives him an excuse to be brutal and racist against elves. Celene, I thought I'd like, but not so much, especially her ordering a massacre of elves in Halamshiral, not because of the rebellion, not because of any crimes they may have committed, but because she wanted to save face in front of the nobility. 

 

No leader can ever, truly, claim they have clean hands save they do absolutely nothing, and that's probably worse than doing something, because doing nothing ultimately means letting others make decisions for you, or allowing gross injustices to take place under your nose. 

 

If anything, I support the elves even more, despite being a dwarf-man. If given a choice, I'll support elves before either Gaspard or Celene. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

True, I agree that Bhelen was overall the best option for Orzammar, so maybe I should have chosen other word. Personally, though, he was a treacherous, manipulative bastard, a resentful tyrant, and if we didn't have the epilogues telling us the consequences of his rule, I'm sure that less people would have chosen him.

 

The idea was that each candidate in the Orlesian Civil War can have many apparent good points about something, and then very bad points about another thing, just like Bhelen and Harrowmont. So maybe asking for a candidate who is honest, nice, true to their word, peaceful in general yet not afraid of using the force to defend their country, a good diplomat, beloved by their subjects, a reformer, an equalist who will give more rights to the elves and the lower classes, etc. is too much.

Well you say good things and bad things when it comes to Behlen there are bad things about him that you pointed that is right but he have a lot to offer as he is competent and progressive one , but now harrowmont lacks any positive traits i mean guy support abusive and suicidal system so he does bad things as well and what he offers? nothing guy is totally incompetent.

 

So pretty much you are already force to chose beetwen not nice guy with questionable methods of ruling it is like chose between loghain and archdemon (in fact here at least would be reason for fun to get ending where bad guy wins).

[TK514]

I'm saying that shes far more able to make lasting changes to the lives of elves, since she actually has power. 

 

Briala refused a perfect opportunity to change the status-quo and work with the system to improve the lives of elves and deliberately dragged out the war, which will cost hundreds if not thousands of human lives. 

 

I don't disagree that Briala's an ass, but Celene being better for the elves?  This is the woman who everyone in the room admits would renege on her promises the moment they became troublesome to keep.  Who kept making promises about change to Briala the entire book, and backing away from them when it was expedient to do so.  Who said that she maybe might make elven lives better at some point in the nebulous future, while dreaming about how to make them her permanent expendable Eluvian army.

 

Why anyone would trust Celene to keep her word on anything is beyond me.

[Ianamus]

I don't disagree that Briala's an ass, but Celene being better for the elves?  This is the woman who everyone in the room admits would renege on her promises the moment they became troublesome to keep.  Who kept making promises about change to Briala the entire book, and backing away from them when it was expedient to do so.  Who said that she maybe might make elven lives better at some point in the nebulous future, while dreaming about how to make them her permanent expendable Eluvian army.

 

Why anyone would trust Celene to keep her word on anything is beyond me.

 

She was going to make Briala a lady, and considering the culture of Orlias that would have been a big thing. 

 

As for keeping her word, I was wondering that when when reading the book but we get a POV of her and she actually seems pretty set on doing it. How she would react when the Nobles turned is a different matter, but the intent seemed genuine from her perspective. 

 

Not to mention offering the Dales to the elves if they helped her. And again, her POV implied she genuinely meant that as well. 

 

I only think Celenes better because she actually has the power to make changes. Briala has the Eluvians, but 0 political influence or power beyond them. 

[Mistic]

Have people even read the book?!, because this is not the first time I've seen this. 

 

Why would Gaspard give the elves rights and Celene take them away when in the book it was the complete opposite? Celene was the one trying to give elves more rights and Gaspard didn't care about them whatsoever.

 

Actually, yes, I read the book. I've just quoted a bit of it earlier.

 

The thing is, Gaspard doesn't have many reasons to help them. However, we have good reasons to think that if he happened to find a reason to do it, he would keep it against any opposition, even if it weakens him.

 

Also, as you said, Gaspard doesn't care about them, in one way or another. As TME showed us, he's as likely to pay people to make fun of Celene's elve-loving tendencies as to help an elf to rebuild his warehouse in the slums. "Right now, I'd rather they see the man who helped rebuild the warehouse the empress's people burned down. I might need them later".

 

Truth be told, I don't expect Gaspard helping the elves at all, but who knows.

 

EDIT: I almost forgot! He also didn't kill or wasn't responsible of the deaths of any elf in the book that I can remember, unlike a certain elf-loving Empress, a half-elf chevalier, a City Elf activist and a (fake) Dalish mage.

[dragonflight288]

She was going to make Briala a lady, and considering the culture of Orlias that would have been a big thing. 

 

As for keeping her word, I was wondering that when when reading the book but we get a POV of her and she actually seems pretty set on doing it. 

 

Not to mention offering the Dales to the elves if they helped her. And again, her POV implied she genuinely meant that as well. 

 

I only think Celenes better because she actually has the power to make changes. Briala has the Eluvians, but 0 political influence or power beyond them. 

 

Until it became politically inconvenient for her. 

[TK514]

She was going to make Briala a lady, and considering the culture of Orlias that would have been a big thing. 

 

As for keeping her word, I was wondering that when when reading the book but we get a POV of her and she actually seems pretty set on doing it. 

 

Not to mention offering the Dales to the elves if they helped her. And again, her POV implied she genuinely meant that as well. 

 

That's the point.  She's really good about meaning things...at the moment she says them.  Not so much later on, when it is no longer convenient.

[The Baconer]

Gaspard will give the city elves rights if they prove themselves. Like, say, in a massive reality-saving struggle. Celene will give them rights until she encounters opposition, and then abandon them.

 

Scum. Both of them and their lot. I'll have naught to offer them but the pyre.

[Ianamus]

That's the point.  She's really good about meaning things...at the moment she says them.  Not so much later on, when it is no longer convenient.

 

When my Inquisition is offering to help her it will be very convenient.

 

I'd rather approach the one with genuine interest in helping them and the political influence to do so with that offer. 

[TK514]

When my Inquisition is offering to help her it will be very convenient.

 

I'd rather approach the one with genuine interest in helping them and the political influence to do so with that offer. 

 

And then the moment your inquisition is no longer necessary, neither are the things she promised you.

[dragonflight288]

When my Inquisition is offering to help her it will be very convenient.

 

I'd rather approach the one with genuine interest in helping them and the political influence to do so with that offer. 

 

*shrug* We'll see. 

 

It may be possible people may change their minds based on what happens in Inquisition, and the game models and voice actors bringing said characters to life may also subtly influence people's choices as well. 

 

At present, I don't like either Celene or Gaspard. 

[Ianamus]

And then the moment your inquisition is no longer necessary, neither are the things she promised you.

 

She was more than willing to help the elves up until the point when it almost led to her being deposed, so I doubt she'd drop the rights she promised them at the drop of a hat. Particuarly when Orlais will be incredibly weakened by the war and the demonic invasion, and the Inquisition is still the largest power and military in southern Thedas. 

[Palidane]

Yeah, the elves are stuck between a rock, a lunatic, and a shaky place, to stretch the metaphor. Gaspard doesn't like them, but will respect them if they prove their worth. Celene claims to support them, but actions speak louder than words, and her actions have said enough. Briala, of course, is likely to get them all killed.

[Palidane]

She was more than willing to help the elves up until the point when it almost led to her being deposed, so I doubt she'd drop the rights she promised them at the drop of a hat. Particuarly when orlais will be incredibly weakened by the war and the demonic invasion, and the Inquisition is still the largest power and military in southern Thedas. 

If by "almost deposed" you mean "one snarky play and a few bought off professors", then yeah, Celene was on death's door.

[dragonflight288]

Yeah, the elves are stuck between a rock, a lunatic, and a shaky place, to stretch the metaphor. Gaspard doesn't like them, but will respect them if they prove their worth. Celene claims to support them, but actions speak louder than words, and her actions have said enough. Briala, of course, is likely to get them all killed.

 

....

 

Unless Celene and Gaspard kill each other first.

 

.......with some aid from the Inquisitor of course. 

[dragonflight288]

EDIT: double post.  

Modifié par dragonflight288, 04 août 2014 - 09:47 .

[Mistic]

It may be possible people may change their minds based on what happens in Inquisition, and the game models and voice actors bringing said characters to life may also subtly influence people's choices as well.

 

I think you're right. We're talking a lot about political theory and "what if"s here, but I'm pretty sure once the game is out players will start having biased reactions depending on the candidate's personality. "They are rude", "they were trying to give me orders", "they called me a thief", "they led me into a trap", "they didn't defend me at this specific moment", "they wanted that castle for themselves", etc.

 

You know, like how many people dislike the Dalish more because they were rude to them than because other, more serious reasons.

[Ianamus]

If by "almost deposed" you mean "one snarky play and a few bought off professors", then yeah, Celene was on death's door.

 

As soon as Gaspard has more supporters than Celene she may as well say goodbye to the Throne, and considering Gaspard outright told the public she was sleeping with an elf... I think the book clearly indicated that it was the final nail in her coffin. Even Briala admitted that she understood why Celene did it entirely, and she's about as pro-elf and knowledgeable about Orlesian politics as it gets. 

 

And these elves were revolting, killing humans and barricading off the city. It's not like she went and burnt down an innocent elven village that was just minding its own business.

[Palidane]

You know, like how many people dislike the Dalish more because they were rude to them than because other, more serious reasons.

Agreed. Sometimes I feel like Bioware fans think civilizations consist of three people. Mass Effect 3 was a great example. I wonder how many times the Quarians got genocided because Han'Gerrel was a bit of a dick.

 

As soon as Gaspard has more supporters than Celene she may as well say goodbye to the Throne, and considering Gaspard outright told the public she was sleeping with an elf... I think the book clearly indicated that it was the final nail in her coffin. Even Briala admitted she understood why Celene did it entirely, and she's about as pro-elf and knowledgeable about Orlesian politics as it gets. 

 

And these elves were revolting, killing humans and barricading off the city. It's not like she went and burnt down an innocent elven town that wasjust minding its own business.

The rebellion being crushed was inevitable. Gaspard would not have hesitated, and neither would Anora. This is Medieval times, after all. That's how a ruler handles challenges to their rule. Celene, however, likes to think of herself as cultured, progressive, and above all the other "savage" rulers. But when push came to shove, she defaulted to fire and blood just like Gaspard would have, showing her true colors in the process. Her cultured identity is a facade, a deception. She'll maintain that persona until the second it becomes inconvenient, and then she'll resort to violence and force. She's just as bad as Gaspard.

 

Actually no, she's worse. At least Gaspard is honest about being a brute.

[Mistic]

The rebellion being crushed was inevitable. Gaspard would not have hesitated, and neither would Anora. This is Medieval times, after all. That's how a ruler handles challenges to their rule. Celene, however, likes to think of herself as cultured, progressive, and above all the other "savage" rulers. But when push came to shove, she defaulted to fire and blood just like Gaspard would have, showing her true colors in the process.

 

You know, it's at these times when I ask myself if people remember Awakening. Especifically, the Peasant Revolution quest.

 

Behold, you're now the feudal lord in Amaranthine, and your poorest subjects, instead of rejoicing, are (logically) afraid because of lack of food/lack of security/tyranny (depending on previous choices). The quest either ends in you persuading them peacefully, intimidating them, fulfilling their demands or in a bath of blood. And even if you tried the peaceful route, the epilogue tells us that the peasants felt more determined and started rioting more often, in the end having to be put down brutally. And that was our Warden.

 

I don't fault Celene for putting down the rebellion, or at least not only for that. But she had more options and, according to the Game, she fell in a trap like a naive newcomer.