475 réponses à ce sujet

[Ianamus]

 

The rebellion being crushed was inevitable. Gaspard would not have hesitated, and neither would Anora. This is Medieval times, after all. That's how a ruler handles challenges to their rule. Celene, however, likes to think of herself as cultured, progressive, and above all the other "savage" rulers. But when push came to shove, she defaulted to fire and blood just like Gaspard would have, showing her true colors in the process. Her cultured identity is a facade, a deception. She'll maintain that persona until the second it becomes inconvenient, and then she'll resort to violence and force. She's just as bad as Gaspard.

 

How is putting down a criminal group/rebellion in the country you rule the same as trying to start a war with another country?

 

That's like saying the police and government using violence to remove dangerous criminals and violent protesters makes them just as bad as a warmongering dictator. 

 

 

I don't fault Celene for putting down the rebellion, or at least not only for that. But she had more options and, according to the Game, she fell in a trap like a naive newcomer.

 

Celene made the perfect choice Game-wise, she just made an abysmal choice military-wise.

[Mistic]

How is putting down a criminal group in the country you rule the same as trying to start war with enough country?

 

That's like saying the police and government using violence to kill dangerous criminals makes them just as bad as a warmongering dictator. 

 

I think the problem is the definition of "criminal" here. After all, after civil wars the winning side always paints their victory as the rightful one, saying the others were criminals/tyrants/terrorists/etc.

[dragonflight288]

I think the problem is the definition of "criminal" here. After all, after civil wars the winning side always paints their victory as the rightful one, saying the others were criminals/tyrants/terrorists/etc.

 

I wonder if the Inquisitor has the option to help the elves, and the elves get a homeland out of the deal, if players would still think the elves the criminals?

 

Food for thought. 

[Ianamus]

I think the problem is the definition of "criminal" here. After all, after civil wars the winning side always paints their victory as the rightful one, saying the others were criminals/tyrants/terrorists/etc.

 

I see the modern equivalent to be a group of violent protesters who kill and physically injure many of the local people in the area they are protesting in, as well as barricading off that part of the city. 

 

I certainly don't think the government going in and killing them/ using violence on them is equivalent to starting war a different country. If anything it's their duty. 

[LobselVith8]

I wonder if the Inquisitor has the option to help the elves, and the elves get a homeland out of the deal, if players would still think the elves the criminals?

 

Food for thought. 

 

Creators willing.

[Hellion Rex]

I wonder if the Inquisitor has the option to help the elves, and the elves get a homeland out of the deal, if players would still think the elves the criminals?

 

Food for thought. 

Meh, I'm still undecided on how to address it, if there is indeed such a third option. My Human Mage won't have a stake in the Elven Situation, so I'll have to deal with it as it comes.

[Mistic]

I see the modern equivalent to be a group of violent protesters who kill and physically injure many of the local people in the area they are protesting in, as well as barricading off that part of the city. 

 

I certainly don't think the government going in and killing them/ using violence on them is equivalent to starting war a different country. If anything it's their duty. 

 

It depends on what happens next. Many countries were born because of insurrection, after all.

[dragonflight288]

Meh, I'm still undecided on how to address it, if there is indeed such a third option. My Human Mage won't have a stake in the Elven Situation, so I'll have to deal with it as it comes.

 

*shrug* Fair enough.

 

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion of Gaspard and Celene and do you think your human mage would have a stake in supporting either of them?

[Hellion Rex]

*shrug* Fair enough.

 

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion of Gaspard and Celene and do you think your human mage would have a stake in supporting either of them?

Lol, that's a good question. To be honest, I loved the hell out of both characters. I liked Celene's attempts at cultural reform, although what she did to Briala's parents was so damn cold. I sincerely appreciated Gaspard's honesty and his adherence to the Chevalier Code. Out of the two...I actually think I like Gaspard more. That being said, my mage will support whichever character can give me the best deal in helping out the Inquisition. Whoever gives me the best resources, soldiers, and the like will have my support, regardless of the politics.

[ButterRum]

Okay, did anyone find the Celene/Briala relationship creepy and borderline abusive? The power dynamics were very contrasting for the two. Briala is Celene's elven handmaiden, and Celene is the Empress. Celene, for the most part of the relationship save for the final pages, had the upper hand in the relationship and could abuse and manipulate Briala to any extent. She kinda did when she killed Briala's parents and then got into a relationship with her.

Briala really believed Celene would help the elven cause, and she was shocked when Celene ordered the killing of many elves. So, it's not like Briala was fully aware of Celene's manipulations -- though she was suspicious -- throughout the relationship until she discovered Celene had killed her parents.

Celene's number one is being Empress to Orlais most of all, while Briala was second. It's not abusive to put your lover second to your work, but the power dynamics between the two were troubling at least, and the narration in the book definitely made notes of it. She took Briala for granted and made excuses anytime she did something wrong to Briala, and would try to kiss and makeup later. So was the relationship between Celene, the Empress of Orlais, and Briala, her elven handmaiden (and spymaster), an abusive relationship?

Regardless, their relationship makes for a good fictional read, and I wouldn't mind seeing them get back together just to enjoy their f'd-upness.

[Hellion Rex]

Okay, did anyone find the Celene/Briala relationship creepy and borderline abusive? The power dynamics were very contrasting for the two. Briala is Celene's elven handmaiden, and Celene is the Empress. Celene, for the most part of the relationship save for the final pages, had the upper hand in the relationship and could abuse and manipulate Briala to any extent. She kinda did when she killed Briala's parents and then got into a relationship with her.

Abusive, no. I thought their relationship was fine till we learned what Celene did to Briala's parents. I think it was a relationship built on a lie, but definitely not abusive.

[TK514]

Okay, did anyone find the Celene/Briala relationship creepy and borderline abusive? The power dynamics were very contrasting for the two. Briala is Celene's elven handmaiden, and Celene is the Empress. Celene, for the most part of the relationship save for the final pages, had the upper hand in the relationship and could abuse and manipulate Briala to any extent. She kinda did when she killed Briala's parents and then got into a relationship with her.

Briala really believed Celene would help the elven cause, and she was shocked when Celene ordered the killing of many elves. So, it's not like Briala was fully aware of Celene's manipulations -- though she was suspicious -- throughout the relationship until she discovered Celene had killed her parents.

Celene's number one is being Empress to Orlais most of all, while Briala was second. It's not abusive to put your lover second to your work, but the power dynamics between the two were troubling at least, and the narration in the book definitely made notes of it. She took Briala for granted and made excuses anytime she did something wrong to Briala, and would try to kiss and makeup later. So was the relationship between Celene, the Empress of Orlais, and Briala, her elven handmaiden (and spymaster), an abusive relationship?

Regardless, their relationship makes for a good fictional read, and I wouldn't mind seeing them get back together just to enjoy their f'd-upness.

 

I thought Celene was seriously overdependent on Briala, emotionally.  Can't sleep without her elven body pillow.  Can't get her day started without her elf there.  Can't do this without Briala, can't do that.  Up to and including refusing to take the step of a political marriage that would have stripped Gaspard of his support and stopped any thoughts of Civil War in their tracks.  All because she was incapable of giving up her special Briala time.

 

Them breaking up was the best thing for her.

[ButterRum]

Okay, Celene wasn't actively abusive to Briala, and she didn't physically abuse her, but the contrasting power dynamics were there. Also, the narrative when Celene would look upon Briala and notice what a "beautiful creature" she was. I don't know if Celene considered Briala her equal counterpart, and the way Celene referred to the elves didn't help much.

I wonder if Briala wanted out the relationship and posed a threat to outing Celene's relationship with an elf, would Celene order Briala dead?

I thought Celene was seriously overdependent on Briala, emotionally. Can't sleep without her elven body pillow. Can't get her day started without her elf there. Can't do this without Briala, can't do that. Up to and including refusing to take the step of a political marriage that would have stripped Gaspard of his support and stopped any thoughts of Civil War in their tracks. All because she was incapable of giving up her special Briala time.

Them breaking up was the best thing for her.

Is it really fair to criticize Celene for being pampered by her handmaiden? All royalty relies on servants to get their day started.

Are you talking about the political marriage between Gaspard and Celene? She didn't want to share power with someone she didn't trust, no less her cousin whose wife killed her parents.

[LobselVith8]

Okay, Celene wasn't actively abusive to Briala, and she didn't physically abuse her, but the contrasting power dynamics were there. Also, the narrative when Celene would look upon Briala and notice what a "beautiful creature" she was. I don't know if Celene considered Briala her equal counterpart, and the way Celene referred to the elves didn't help much.

 

You're not the first person to bring up the power dynamics of elven/human relationships; I think some players brought up Cousland and Iona in the Fenris thread and discussed how it came across to them, due to the significant rift of power and authority a human has in contrast to an elf. It can enter awkward territory. Given the line you referenced, I can see how you would question Celene's views; I think her reaction to the burning of Halamshiral, in comparison to the human village that had been sacked, addresses a difference in how she views elves in comparison to humans.

 

I wonder if Briala wanted out the relationship and posed a threat to outing Celene's relationship with an elf, would Celene order Briala dead?

 

Given what was done to Halamshiral, I think Celene is capable of doing anything to secure her position to the throne.

[Hellion Rex]

Given what was done to Halamshiral, I think Celene is capable of doing anything to secure her position to the throne.

Those were completely unknown elves, not people that Celene knew, much less cared for. So Halamshiral can't really compare as an example for if Celene would be willing to kill Briala.

[LobselVith8]

Those were completely unknown elves, not people that Celene knew, much less cared for. So Halamshiral can't really compare as an example for if Celene would be willing to kill Briala.

 

Would it have been better if I pointed out that, given how Celene murdered Briala's parents, I don't think she's incapable of killing people she personally knows?

[TK514]

Okay, Celene wasn't actively abusive to Briala, and she didn't physically abuse her, but the contrasting power dynamics were there. Also, the narrative when Celene would look upon Briala and notice what a "beautiful creature" she was. I don't know if Celene considered Briala her equal counterpart, and the way Celene referred to the elves didn't help much.

I wonder if Briala wanted out the relationship and posed a threat to outing Celene's relationship with an elf, would Celene order Briala dead?

Is it really fair to criticize Celene for being pampered by her handmaiden? All royalty relies on servants to get their day started.

Are you talking about the political marriage between Gaspard and Celene? She didn't want to share power with someone she didn't trust, no less her cousin whose wife killed her parents.

 

Celene had specific handmaidens to get her ready in the morning.  Such that Celene and Briala had to wake up, have their little morning ritual, and the Briala had to sneak out before the actual staff showed up.  No, this was completely different.

 

Phrases like "The only time her mind gave her respite was when Briala slept beside her", "But to lose my midnight visits from you?  I think the price too high" and "None but Briala would ever know about that first cup of tea, or a few stolen moments with the woman who let her sleep at night".

 

And not Gaspard.  Duke Remache.

 

She even admits to herself that refusing to marry because of Briala is a mistake, and yet she does it anyway.

 

Pretty much the entire conversation they have after the Ball in Chapter 2.

[TheJediSaint]

I thought Celene was seriously overdependent on Briala, emotionally.  Can't sleep without her elven body pillow.  Can't get her day started without her elf there.  Can't do this without Briala, can't do that.  Up to and including refusing to take the step of a political marriage that would have stripped Gaspard of his support and stopped any thoughts of Civil War in their tracks.  All because she was incapable of giving up her special Briala time.

 

Them breaking up was the best thing for her.

 

Not an example of a healthy relationship.  That's for sure.

[TK514]

You're not the first person to bring up the power dynamics of elven/human relationships; I think some players brought up Cousland and Iona in the Fenris thread and discussed how it came across to them, due to the significant rift of power and authority a human has in contrast to an elf. It can enter awkward territory. Given the line you referenced, I can see how you would question Celene's views; I think her reaction to the burning of Halamshiral, in comparison to the human village that had been sacked, addresses a difference in how she views elves in comparison to humans.

 

 

Given what was done to Halamshiral, I think Celene is capable of doing anything to secure her position to the throne.

 

 

Would it have been better if I pointed out that, given how Celene murdered Briala's parents, I don't think she's incapable of killing people she personally knows?

 

Killing Briala?  No, not in the time frame of TME.  Imprisoning and attempting to woo back, yes.

 

After Briala starts murdering Orlesian citizens, either actively or indirectly through her attempted manipulations of the Civil War?  Who knows.  If Briala's actions become public knowledge, she's probably due a visit from the headsman regardless of what Celene would personally prefer.

[ButterRum]

You're not the first person to bring up the power dynamics of elven/human relationships; I think some players brought up Cousland and Iona in the Fenris thread and discussed how it came across to them, due to the significant rift of power and authority a human has in contrast to an elf. It can enter awkward territory. Given the line you referenced, I can see how you would question Celene's views; I think her reaction to the burning of Halamshiral, in comparison to the human village that had been sacked, addresses a difference in how she views elves in comparison to humans.


Given what was done to Halamshiral, I think Celene is capable of doing anything to secure her position to the throne.

It's not just the elf vs human dynamics, but also that Celene is the empress and in a huge power position. If you're the POTUS and sleeping with your lesser intern, that could also open to potential abuse. I mean, it's not ethical to do something like that, though it's obvious Celene and Briala were aware of that.

But the book showed that Briala was dangerous and capable of thinking for herself, so I'm glad that the book didn't make her totally helpless.

Celene had specific handmaidens to get her ready in the morning. Such that Celene and Briala had to wake up, have their little morning ritual, and the Briala had to sneak out before the actual staff showed up. No, this was completely different.

Phrases like "The only time her mind gave her respite was when Briala slept beside her", "But to lose my midnight visits from you? I think the price too high" and "None but Briala would ever know about that first cup of tea, or a few stolen moments with the woman who let her sleep at night".

And not Gaspard. Duke Remache.

She even admits to herself that refusing to marry because of Briala is a mistake, and yet she does it anyway.

Pretty much the entire conversation they have after the Ball in Chapter 2.

Oh, wow, the wikia says it's Gaspard, but I also read the book and forgot who it was.

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Celene_I

http://dragonage.wik...pard_de_Chalons

Is it wrong?

[TK514]

It's not just the elf vs human dynamics, but also that Celene is the empress and in a huge power position. If you're the POTUS and sleeping with your lesser intern, that could also open to potential abuse. I mean, it's not ethical to do something like that, though it's obvious Celene and Briala were aware of that.

But the book showed that Briala was dangerous and capable of thinking for herself, so I'm glad that the book didn't make her totally helpless.

Oh, wow, the wikia says it's Gaspard, but I also read the book, and double checked wikia before mentioning it.

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Celene_I

http://dragonage.wik...pard_de_Chalons

Is it wrong?

 

At the point in the book Celene and Briala are having the conversation about political marriage, Gaspard hasn't made his offer.  That's later during the hunt.  And had she accepted Remache's suit, Gaspard would have lost one of his most powerful supporters.

[Hellion Rex]

Would it have been better if I pointed out that, given how Celene murdered Briala's parents, I don't think she's incapable of killing people she personally knows?

But were any of those people her lover? No, so again, those people don't count.

[dragonflight288]

But were any of those people her lover? No, so again, those people don't count.

 

She had to know that Briala would definitely NOT approve of that action, but she did it anyway. 

 

And it wasn't for legitimate reasons like quelling a rebellion or punishing law breakers. She did it simply because she wanted to silence the naysayers. Because it was politically expedient. 

 

She let her relationship with Briala get in the way of marrying, but she also had Briala's parents killed. 

 

I think she's a cold, calculating woman who simply got too used to being on top and isn't used to the organized, and tenacious resistance Gaspard gives her. 

[MisterJB]

She had to know that Briala would definitely NOT approve of that action, but she did it anyway. 

 

And it wasn't for legitimate reasons like quelling a rebellion or punishing law breakers. She did it simply because she wanted to silence the naysayers. Because it was politically expedient. 

 

She let her relationship with Briala get in the way of marrying, but she also had Briala's parents killed. 

 

I think she's a cold, calculating woman who simply got too used to being on top and isn't used to the organized, and tenacious resistance Gaspard gives her. 

Seems to me you're talking about two different events here.

Celene killed Briala's parents in order to prove to Lady Mantillon that she deserved her support; had she failed to prove her worth, Gaspard or other pretender to the throne would have killed Celene.

It was a matter of survival.

[TK514]

She had to know that Briala would definitely NOT approve of that action, but she did it anyway. 

 

And it wasn't for legitimate reasons like quelling a rebellion or punishing law breakers. She did it simply because she wanted to silence the naysayers. Because it was politically expedient. 

 

She let her relationship with Briala get in the way of marrying, but she also had Briala's parents killed. 

 

I think she's a cold, calculating woman who simply got too used to being on top and isn't used to the organized, and tenacious resistance Gaspard gives her. 

 

 

Seems to me you're talking about two different events here.

Celene killed Briala's parents in order to prove to Lady Mantillon that she deserved her support; had she failed to prove her worth, Gaspard or other pretender to the throne would have killed Celene.

It was a matter of survival.

 

And she notably did not turn around and kill Briala then and there, when it would have been easy and expedient to do so.  Instead, she helps Briala 'escape the assassins'.