79 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Me thinks you are bringing your hatred for religion in real life into teh forum

 

Let's not claim that people hate real world religion simply because some dislike the Chantry of Andraste specifically.

[Xilizhra]

Me thinks you are bringing your hatred for religion in real life into teh forum

In what way was that statement hateful?

[Gervaise]

There is nothing in the teaching of the Chantry that suggests the Maker is omnipotent.    He created the Fade and Thedas but that may be the extent of what he can do.   You could just as easily argue why didn't he stop them getting in?   Answer: because he couldn't.   The huge amount of lyrium and blood sacrifice simply tore a hole and allowed the Magisters to enter.   If he couldn't prevent it, he couldn't stop them retreating back through it.   Or may be the Fade sort of coughed them out.   

 

My own view is that all the beings that are called gods are simply different spirits, the Maker was the original one and the other sprang from him.  One thing the Chant say is that the Fade came first, which may be significant.

 

To be honest, the Chantry's dogma is all over the place with regard to the Maker and how he reacts with the world.    So I prefer to ignore them and work on my own version of Andrastrianism, just as my PCs do.    My first Inquisitor is going to be a cross over, starting from a city elf side and joining the Dalish, questioning everything.    At present I can't see why it is not possible to reconcile the two faiths, even if she has to keep it quiet from her fellow Dalish.      One thing I do know is that there are definitely spirits that interact with the world, all of them are perilous and some of them are outright nasty.    The Maker and the Creators come under the category of those that are willing to help, possibly with strings attached, together with other spirits that embody the "virtues" but you seem to have to put in a bit of effort to get them to notice you, as opposed to the more malign ones who seem to be just waiting for the chance to interact.    

 

Music seems the key.   Song attracted the Maker, lyrium sings, the old gods sing.   Powerful spirits just love a good tune.

[Statare]

My big thing with the Chantry view of the Maker is that there is increasing evidence that the Veil was created after the world (Yavanna in Silent Grove), dividing the physical and the spiritual. This is also reflected in the beliefs of the Elves and their view of the Beyond and their Immortality, and some things hinted at involving spirits/demons. You could even argue the Ancient Thaig in DA2 hints that prior to some time in the past the magical and physical realm were not entirely separate. 

 

According to the Chant, the Maker created the Fade first, and then the physical world. To me, it seems likely, if the Fade and the Physical World were separated at some point after a first creation, that the Maker is a delineating deity (he divides, he limits who has magic, and he makes mortals with finite lives, he is also a Death god ruling over the dead). This Maker never actually created anything but separated a composite into two parts (Physical and Spiritual, Life and Death). We know Fen'Harel separated two groups of Gods and devours the souls of the dead. Seems a little coincidental.

 

I think it is entirely possible there is a Maker-like deity, but he is not the Maker in the Chant. The Maker in the Chant seems more like a Death God than a Creator Deity.

[Spicen]

There is nothing in the teaching of the Chantry that suggests the Maker is omnipotent. He created the Fade and Thedas but that may be the extent of what he can do. You could just as easily argue why didn't he stop them getting in? Answer: because he couldn't. The huge amount of lyrium and blood sacrifice simply tore a hole and allowed the Magisters to enter. If he couldn't prevent it, he couldn't stop them retreating back through it. Or may be the Fade sort of coughed them out.

My own view is that all the beings that are called gods are simply different spirits, the Maker was the original one and the other sprang from him. One thing the Chant say is that the Fade came first, which may be significant.

To be honest, the Chantry's dogma is all over the place with regard to the Maker and how he reacts with the world. So I prefer to ignore them and work on my own version of Andrastrianism, just as my PCs do. My first Inquisitor is going to be a cross over, starting from a city elf side and joining the Dalish, questioning everything. At present I can't see why it is not possible to reconcile the two faiths, even if she has to keep it quiet from her fellow Dalish. One thing I do know is that there are definitely spirits that interact with the world, all of them are perilous and some of them are outright nasty. The Maker and the Creators come under the category of those that are willing to help, possibly with strings attached, together with other spirits that embody the "virtues" but you seem to have to put in a bit of effort to get them to notice you, as opposed to the more malign ones who seem to be just waiting for the chance to interact.

Music seems the key. Song attracted the Maker, lyrium sings, the old gods sing. Powerful spirits just love a good tune.

+1.I agree about the elven creators bbeing spirits. as for the music, its not the key, lyriums is the key. Remember what the red lyrium did to meredith. it seems the song is a bit like indoctrination of the reapers

[Spicen]

My big thing with the Chantry view of the Maker is that there is increasing evidence that the Veil was created after the world (Yavanna in Silent Grove), dividing the physical and the spiritual. This is also reflected in the beliefs of the Elves and their view of the Beyond and their Immortality, and some things hinted at involving spirits/demons. You could even argue the Ancient Thaig in DA2 hints that prior to some time in the past the magical and physical realm were not entirely separate.

According to the Chant, the Maker created the Fade first, and then the physical world. To me, it seems likely, if the Fade and the Physical World were separated at some point after a first creation, that the Maker is a delineating deity (he divides, he limits who has magic, and he makes mortals with finite lives, he is also a Death god ruling over the dead). This Maker never actually created anything but separated a composite into two parts (Physical and Spiritual, Life and Death). We know Fen'Harel separated two groups of Gods and devours the souls of the dead. Seems a little coincidental.

I think it is entirely possible there is a Maker-like deity, but he is not the Maker in the Chant. The Maker in the Chant seems more like a Death God than a Creator Deity.

There isnt much info about the maker from the game. I remember someone in the forum saying that gaider wont touch the topic

[Spicen]

Let's not claim that people hate real world religion simply because some dislike the Chantry of Andraste specifically.

'religion is a sum of those who follow it'
- no andraste or chantry.

[Samahl]

'religion is a sum of those who follow it'
- no andraste or chantry.

 

How is that in any way indicative of hate?

[Spicen]

How is that in any way indicative of hate?

i dont want to reply that question as it cud lead the thread off topic.
Short answer: read her posts in the thread, you will get a taste.+ I said she was 'trying' to do it. + Religion is more than its followers, she was clearly treating it with distaste(indirectly insulting the God in it). That is as far as i go

[LobselVith8]

i dont want to reply that question as it cud lead the thread off topic.
Short answer: read her posts in the thread, you will get a taste.+ I said she was 'trying' to do it. + Religion is more than its followers, she was clearly treating it with distaste(indirectly insulting the God in it). That is as far as i go

 

Which indicates you think Xil dislikes the Chantry of Andraste and the people who follow the Andrastian faith, but her possible view on a fictional religion has no relevance regarding how she feels about religions in the real world. Some people certainly don't like the Andrastian Chantry or the attitudes of many of the people who follow it, whether it's the derogatory views held towards elves or the denigration of magic and mages, but that has no association with how they feel about real religions that don't include the historical subjugation of elves or the oppression of mages.

[Gervaise]

With regard to the Veil and what Yavanna says, what is the source of her information?    If it was a spirit, is her information any more reliable than that of Andraste?    Did it come from the dragons?    Is it perhaps an incomplete memory, such as Solas obtains from sleeping in a particular place?    All she seems to say is that there was a time before the Veil, which is true because there was just the Fade and no material world.    Dragons ruled the skies?    Well the old gods take the form of dragons so it may just refer to the time when the old gods roamed free.   The old gods were also thought to dwell in the Golden City by the Tevinter Magisters, which is why they tried to get there.    So from what I have read, there is nothing in Silent Grove that actually contradicts the idea that the Fade came first, then the physical world and then the Veil was created to divide the two.   

 

It may be there was a period when there was no Veil between them and that the elves were possibly the first material beings and for the short time there was no divide between the realms, they were immortal and magical, losing these properties when the Veil came into being.    Then humans came after.   One of the odd things about the Chant of Light is that it really only refers to humans, as though it was only referring to human history.   I did wonder if elves were spirits that somehow gradually become more material but in the process forgot their origins.   This would account for why they were initially immortal and magical but contact with the material world of humans eroded such things, why they found themselves cut off from their gods and why they can only perpetuate themselves with another of their own species, never with any other material race.  

[Heimdall]

There isnt much info about the maker from the game. I remember someone in the forum saying that gaider wont touch the topic

I think he said that they will never reveal the full nature of the Maker

[Spicen]

include the historical subjugation of elves or the oppression of mages.

The chantry saved the mages from the original mage hunters who later became the templars. After what the teventirs did, the mages were lucky the chantry showed mercy. Make no mistake i supported the mages in da2 but the chantry had nothing to do with the templars. elthina was old so she cudnt stop meredith. meredith's coup was her own making, the chantry had nothing to do with it.
Ofcourse the chantry in orlais has dirt on them. the politicians use it to further their ambitions. Ok this can be blamed. And the exalted march on the dales can be blamed but not mage oppresion

[Spicen]

I think he said that they will never reveal the full nature of the Maker

sth like that. Thing is we wont really find out about a lot about the maker unless it(a god has no gender btw) gets a fan club.

[Gervaise]

I tend to refer to the Maker as he because of the fact that Andraste was meant to be his bride.    However, you are probably right, although "it" does seem so impersonal but then the Maker is a bit of an impersonal god unless you happen to be Andraste.    As long as you simply think of the Maker as the origin of things and not getting involved particularly with events, then I think there is no problem in not knowing anything more.   That is what faith is all about.    People can believe that the Maker is aiding them or not whatever the truth actually is.     However, there is a point in saying "If you believe in the Maker, why don't you do as he taught in Chant of Light?"  

 

I think the ordinary folk of Thedas are probably far more devout than the nobility, much as in our world.   This is why criticising faith in the Maker on the basis of the believers is not necessarily fair.    The majority of believers are the little guys on the street, who draw great comfort from their faith and do their best to follow it according to what they have been told or understood when listening to the Chant itself.    The Chantry mothers in the villages are also people of simple faith and do their best to help their flock, as evidenced by the one in Redcliffe.     As always it is the people in positions of power that tend not to be good examples of their faith and really only pay it lip service.     This is why it is nonsense saying the Chantry has lost its power.    It has lost control over the mages and Templars but the ordinary people will still be faithful.  

[Xilizhra]

I think the ordinary folk of Thedas are probably far more devout than the nobility, much as in our world.   This is why criticising faith in the Maker on the basis of the believers is not necessarily fair.    The majority of believers are the little guys on the street, who draw great comfort from their faith and do their best to follow it according to what they have been told or understood when listening to the Chant itself.    The Chantry mothers in the villages are also people of simple faith and do their best to help their flock, as evidenced by the one in Redcliffe.     As always it is the people in positions of power that tend not to be good examples of their faith and really only pay it lip service.     This is why it is nonsense saying the Chantry has lost its power.    It has lost control over the mages and Templars but the ordinary people will still be faithful.  

And what's wrong with criticizing them when they engage in mob violence and the like, owing strongly to their faith? This happened in both DA2 and Asunder, and has been spoken of quite a few times elsewhere.

[Spicen]

And what's wrong with criticizing them when they engage in mob violence and the like, owing strongly to their faith? This happened in both DA2 and Asunder, and has been spoken of quite a few times elsewhere.

Dont know about asunder but in da2 it was the templars not the chantry who were to blame. Petrice is an example of extremism. Extremists r present everywhere

[Chari]

I wish people would distinguish between what is actually in the Chant and the interpretation the Chantry puts on it. I stressed I like the morality of the Chant. By this I mean not harming those weaker than yourself just because you can, using magic for the good of society, etc. It makes me fume that the Chantry claims to follow the Chant of Light and yet the Chantry never seems to publically condemn nobles who commit atrocities and abuse their power but concentrates entirely on the activities of mages.

The Chant of Light is a collection of different sayings written down by her followers after Andraste's death and they do actually differ quite markedly at times. Some read like sayings and proverbs whereas others seem more lyrical and poetic, yet all are meant to have come from Andraste. The moment I was told in DAO that some bits had been dropped from the Chant due to political expediency (Shartan), it immediately made me wonder whether it was all genuine sayings of Andraste and what other bits might have been lost over the years. The original Inquisition was running around hunting mages, cults and heretics in the years between her death and the creation of the Chantry, so may be they edited it to suit their convenience.

I fail to see why Shartan wasn't a help to the elves. It was his initiative that led them to throw in their lot with Andraste's crusade. He died trying to defend her but her surviving followers did honour the agreement to give the elves a homeland. Without him as such a high profile disciple, would anyone have bothered about providing the elves with a homeland? I very much doubt it. After all they gave them very little assistance getting there. It was basically, we've honoured our agreement, the rest is up to you.

Also Shartan was not a mage. He and his people had suffered for years at the hands of mages. Was it so inexplicable that he would follow a religion that criticised their excesses? The Chant of Light does not condemn magic, it condemns the abuse of magic. It was the Inquisition and then the Chantry, 200 years after his death, that vilified magic and called it a curse. The Chant of Light specifically states that it is a gift of the Maker. "Vile and corrupt are they who have taken his gift and used it against his children." It is a condemnation of the Tevinter Magisters, not mages as a whole. The way in which the Dalish have viewed magic is entirely compatible with the Chant of Light.

As for the Maker abandoning humanity, well what about the Creators abandoning the elves in their hour of need, twice? The Dalish have come up with a convenient excuse for the failure assist Arlathan, they were tricked and locked away. Then they contradict themselves by saying that those elves who made it to the end of the Long March were rewarded by the Creators with a homeland. How did the Creators do that if they are locked away and unable to act? They also teach that if the elves remember what it is to be true elves, the Creators will return. Hard to do that if you are locked away. Then apparently after giving them this homeland and the elves faithfully adopting the old ways, even to the extent of antagonising their human neighbours, the Creators apparently let them lose it again.

The Chantry teach if everyone adopts the Chant of Light then the Maker will return. There doesn't seem much difference there, except that the Chantry have hamstringed us by removing versus from the Chant, so may be the Maker will not recognise the adoption of a truncated Chant. However, looking back to the time of Andraste, if the elves believed their gods were locked away and unable to act, why not adopt the faith of a god whose earthly representative had such success, particularly when they were opposing your oppressors and promised you a homeland? There was some definite agreement and debt of honour between Andraste and Shartan. That is why he is such an embarrassment to the Chantry.

Shartan was a significant historical figure. Honest Chantry scholars admit that without him intervening with his elven followers, Andraste and Maferath might well have lost the Battle of the Valarian Fields, in which case there would be no Chantry or Orlais and Tevinter would still be riding high. (I realise that some people think this would be a good thing because they think Tevinter is wonderful, slavery, blood magic sacrifices and all). Without his initiative and subsequent promises that he obtained regarding his people, the elves would never have been given the Dales. It is even possible to argue that had the elves adopted the faith of Shartan they would never have lost it again. Certainly if they had maintained better relations with their human neighbours they might not have made themselves such a target.

To be honest, I'm hoping Solas is going to be able to throw some light on all of this. That gap between the death of Shartan and the fall of the Dales, during which the Dalish culture was established is a period I would like to learn a great deal more. If I can learn more about Shartan himself, so much the better.

You make sense and speak wisely
Though I doubt Solas can say much, he is not dalish

[Xilizhra]

Dont know about asunder but in da2 it was the templars not the chantry who were to blame. Petrice is an example of extremism. Extremists r present everywhere

Petrice had plenty of followers.

[Chari]

Petrice had plenty of followers.

Who were quite tired and afraid of giant oxmen part of which became aggressive talvashoth, putting lives at danger. I'm pretty sure most of simple folk can't tell a difference between qunari and talvashoth as well

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I think he said that they will never reveal the full nature of the Maker

Yep. They are leaving the Maker purposefully ambiguous. 

[Xilizhra]

Who were quite tired and afraid of giant oxmen part of which became aggressive talvashoth, putting lives at danger. I'm pretty sure most of simple folk can't tell a difference between qunari and talvashoth as well

Petrice never spoke of the Tal-Vashoth at all; everything she and hers said was about the qunari being heathens.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Who were quite tired and afraid of giant oxmen part of which became aggressive talvashoth, putting lives at danger. I'm pretty sure most of simple folk can't tell a difference between qunari and talvashoth as well

Well, since our Vashoth Inquisitor will only be recognized as such by Qunari and not the other races, that seems accurate. 

[Chari]

Petrice never spoke of the Tal-Vashoth at all; everything she and hers said was about the qunari being heathens.

I doubt she could tell a difference and even if she could, it still technically would be Arishok's fault in her opinion, since it is his soldiers who went rogue and attacked the bas

[Icy Magebane]

Petrice never spoke of the Tal-Vashoth at all; everything she and hers said was about the qunari being heathens.

The Tal'vashoth were strictly raiders in DA2... word would have spread to the people of the city, and they probably didn't distinguish between them and the Qunari.  The Arishok could have told them that the two groups were not related, but he didn't bother to explain anything to anyone.  Thus, it is reasonable that most commoners were afraid of anything resembling a Qunari.