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The tiresome Morrigan debate (spoiler)


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#26
Coldcall01

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MagiST wrote...

Women like Morrigan are dangerous in many ways. It's better to remember the lies that she told than the things that resemble love and friendship. All I can say is that there was no closure.


I think there is no (Morrigan) closure for a purpose, and its telling that Bioware have not added an end of game save mechanism as they did for ME. This all leads me to suspect that either a large expansion or DAO2 will pick up the Morrigan (archdemon child) storyline, and the reason Bioware did not do an end of game save is because the Morrigan story will be central to the next DAO.

#27
nYshak

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I consider the Epilogue save an endgame save. DAO2 could easily import a PC from there. I think the addon will do just that.

Modifié par nYshak, 25 janvier 2010 - 12:16 .


#28
Terra_Ex

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nYshak wrote...
There's so much you can read into her stating that finding her would be unwise. Maybe the child will be evil? Whatever the case, Morrigan can fall in love with the PC. Its kinda sad to come to the conclusion that The Awakening will most likely feature noting of Morrigan. In fact I'm conviced that if Bioware is going to continue Morrigans storyline they'll do so with DA 2 at the earliest. The hole god child thing just seems way to big for a DLC or an addon. No matter, once they do continue with it, they better make it so that I am able to import Aryk (my PC) and continue the romance or I'm gonna hate them for the rest of my life ;)



Seconded, my first playthrough was a similar experience to your own as far as Morrigan is concerned. I'm not sure they will let us continue on with the current Warden however (though I'd definitely prefer it), with the whole "origins" focus being constantly reiterated I'm fearful we'll have a new warden thrust upon us as the new PC in DA2 and the Warden's entanglement with Morrigan and Flemeth will forever go unresolved. Just some of my thoughts on the matter from posting on another forum:

Bioware seem to be insinuating that there will be more than one DLC
extending the main quest (the press release states the "first
expansion"), the first being Awakening - each presumably increasing the
level cap. My thoughts are that unless we get to bring the PC into DA2,
these DLCs could potentially end anticlimactically... to me, "n"
potential expansions culminating in Bioware ditching the main for DA2
seems kind of pointless. For me, the PC and Morrigan have unfinished
business, particularly those who romanced her, certainly not something
that can be finished up in an expansion, and not something that should
be passed onto a new, unrelated warden.

My thoughts mirror a lot of what I've read here:
http://gameinformer....an-opinion.aspx

tbh,
I hope that Dragon Age will take a leaf out of Mass Effect's book,
breaking up the saga into various arcs, with each one serving as the
climactic conclusion to that particular Warden's story - I know I
certainly don't feel like my PC is through facing the many challenges
Ferelden/Thedas has thrown at him. I guess I'm just a bit wary that once the
DLCs are over and done with, the possibility exists that we may end up
with a new PC, which I feel would be a cop out - could be worrying over
nothing though.

Personally I feel that the Warden is in a similar situation the the PC at the end of BG1--things have happened but his/her story is far from over. Bioware has crafted such an amazingly detailed game world here,
easily rivalling the hallowed Planescape Torment and BG series, with
Morrigan serving as one of the most interesting characters we've ever
interacted with in the gaming world, it'd be such a shame if Bioware
doesn't allow players to finish what they started, as it were - at the
moment all us poor Morrigan fans got was a firm kick in the teeth right
at the end. Its pretty interesting that a quick google search reveals plenty of fans feel similar.

Have to say though, the quality of the writing and character development was incredible, it literally puts everything I've played in recent years to shame- so gratifying to see Bioware returning to its roots and producing such an engrossing new ip. First major rpg in a long time where I've actually begun a second playthrough immediately after finishing it - takes a very special game for me to do that with my increasing limited free time :) Hell, even the reaction Morrigan's disappearance provokes from the fanbase is testament to her character development. Ah well, I'd best order David Gaider's books to tide me over till march...

#29
nYshak

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Thanks for the link, I enjoyed reading it.



I've yet to experience the alternative endings, but I tend to agree with the author and say that the Dark Promise ending might be the most interesting.



I can only repeat what I said before: I do hope BioWare will make it so that we're not forced to become a "New Grey Warden"-type of character for DAO2 without any connections to Morrigan. While certainly possible that would be - in my mind - the cheap way out.

#30
MaliceDelight

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@ Terra



I got shivers reading his analysis......probly cause thats everything i pretty much thought/hoped for. Its cool to see that so many other players feel the same way about the game.

#31
MaliceDelight

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Ok i was flipping through the fan art, and while this particular picture was a little too anime for my tastes, how emotional do you think you would have gotten if this happened in a cut scene during the game. Even if the two have completly different motives (pending your romance).

Link here: http://aimostudio.co...iganpcwynne.jpg

EDIT: The name of the picture is "Don't you die on me"

Modifié par MaliceDelight, 25 janvier 2010 - 11:56 .


#32
MaliceDelight

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Well fellas i played a little tonight before im off to bed and i was sure i was onto something with dialog i got, but bioware made the other option just as confusing lol.

Something along the lines of:
Warden: Where are we going with this
Morrigan: Did you expect we'd be living on a farm, you paint the shed, i'll bake the bread?

Possible answer 1:
Well if you dont want any of those things, nevermind.
Morrigan: I didn't say that exactally its just...Nevermind, i grow tired of this, lets discuss this another time.

Possibility 2:
Whats so wrong with that?
Morrigan: Are you serious "chuckles". You must be joking (along with a few other things) But also shows her weird confusion and inability to reveal anything.

This is all before killing flemeth.

Modifié par MaliceDelight, 26 janvier 2010 - 09:09 .


#33
Xandurpein

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If you listen to Morrigan's early speeches, like the descriptions of her childhood, there is a recurring theme to it all. She wants to be independent. Survival, as taught by Flemeth, is to not be dependent on other people. In Flemeth world emotion is always second to necessity. Other people are there to be used. Flemeth is teaching Morrigan to shun emotional contact and treat people like something to be used, even as Flemeth is raising Morrigan herself as a daughter for many years, knowing that ultimately she will consume Morrigan to renew herself.



Few things in the world can be more frightening to Morrigan, then the discovery that she might become emotionally dependent on another being and of course she goes into total denial. If she didn't deny it, she would be forced to break it off, and she don't want to.

#34
blademaster7

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As much as I don't want to believe it, I truly feel any reunion with The Warden and Morrigan would be even more heartbreaking than before. If you guys are hoping for a happy ending with your PC and Morrigan kissing in front of the sunset then you're gonna be dissapointed.

Let's just assume that she doesn't want the baby for her selfish ambitions, even though this isn't the most likely scenario.

She keeps dismissing you every time you bring up anything about your relationship. In the end she tells you that the ritual is important to her and that she's is happy to save your life after everything meant to her. You did everything for her, you even showed her a side of herself she didn't know existed,  but she still has to leave and she doesn't want to be followed insisting that it must be done and this is how it should be.


If you say "thank you for everything" during the Final Battle she says that she could have done a lot more for you if it was a different time and you were different people. She also says: "I will always remember you my love". There is something huge here. She makes her feelings clear about you, and she obviously desires to be with you... but for some reason she can't.

Warden: If that's what you really want.
Morrigan. : It is. What happens now happens because destiny demands it. I am... sorry, but this is how it must be.

So even if her intentions with the baby are pure, it is made perfectly clear that you can't be with her. Not even the strongest love in the word would bring you together.

And all this is a positive way of looking it. The negative version is the one where people believe she will posses the child so she can be the next Flemeth. It ends up in a tragedy I tell you, no matter what.

Modifié par blademaster7, 26 janvier 2010 - 11:02 .


#35
nYshak

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Might be, might be not. You said yourself, that the PC showed her a side of her she did not know herself. Of course it might all end in bitter tragedy. But as things stand right now, for all we know it may as well end the other way around. I'm unwilling to put forth probabilities of either scenario, I`m just saying that right now, everything might happen.

#36
Master Shiori

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MaliceDelight wrote...

I've read a whole bunch of posts about morrigans plan and flemeths motives, and while that all makes complete sense, i can shed the fact that morrigan can actually love your main character, unlike many people say.

I guess my biggest point is that:
 
Im on my second play through and have found so much stuff i didn't realize before i could do/talk to. Now im a sap and i keep thinking if i play the game and romance morrigan that i will get a happy ending, of that im not sure why. Regardless, I have a pretty high rating with her now and have did things in my tent :wub:, but have not talked about love (cuase after you make it to 'love' or whatever you get to, the dialog isn't as fun). Well anyhow, i went to Redcliffe village last night, chose to help the people. I helped the woman in the chantry find her brother, and then i gave Bella in the tavern 500 silver to start a new life. Now, when i gave the money i persuaded morrigan that it was ok, and she rolled with it without any indication of disfavor. However, when i requested a kiss from both of them for helping, morrigan scowled and made some very rude comments about my pecks on the cheek.

Now, if morrigan didn't love/like your character, why all the pretty vivid jealousy? Could she simply not just laugh and call my character an idiot or something sarcastic like she does with alistair ?

Your thoughts?

-Malice-

:ph34r: (little ninja face)


Morrigan will not openly admit that she loves your character until the last part of the game. As you develop your relationship she will gradualy move away from "it's just fun" towards "I care for you" and finally to the point where she admits to being in love with you.

Just keep in mind that she has never been with somebody who genuinely cared for her without asking for anything in return and as you go on through the game she'll have some pretty strong conflicts between what she feels and what she's been taught.

Ultimately, she'll have to choose between duty and happiness and it will be a bittersweet choice for both of you.
However, that doesn't change her feelings towards your character or make the emotional payoff of the romance any less.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 26 janvier 2010 - 12:30 .


#37
blademaster7

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Aren't we all wishing for a good ending with her story? I don't like it anymore than anyone else that romanced her at some point but that's the impression I got. That is why she is such a successful character.

She's your typical mysterious evil girl. You are starting to get to know her and you eventually see her softer side, she starts having feelings for you and at some parts of her dialogue you get the impression that she may just be trying to protect you. You discover an actual person with emotions behind the mask of the "evil witch". In the end though it still ends bad. You learned so much about her and yet you still know very little. So many questions unanswered.



A happily ever after ending will warm our hearts but if that was to happen in the epilogue then it would have killed the character.

#38
nYshak

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True, blademaster7. And that is the reason why DA:O does not end happily with a PC romancing Morrigan. But that does not mean it has to stay that way in a sequel. To be honest what I liked about Morrigan was that - in contrast to Leliana - she isn't as much cliché. Leliana may have a dark past and whatnot but she always struck me as the typical girly girl who likes shoes and pets and make up and bla bla blah.



In hoping for a happy ending with Morrigan I'm actually hoping that BioWare will step away from another cliché here. "The mysterious evil girl" while fun, has been done over and over again. The fact that there is more to her is what makes Morrigan so interesting I think. It would be sad to see BioWare reduce Morrigan to another irredeemable femme fatale along the road. I don't know, just my 2 cents.

#39
Xandurpein

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I think that the fact that Morrigan's story ends in tragedy is essential to her story. It would ruin the whole story if she suddenly did a 180 turn and said it would be fine.

On top of that I think it is great in a much larger context. Up until Morrigan you had pretty much gotten used to getting the girl, and finding the right words aren't really that hard. From now on, you will always have the nagging fear that in this new game maybe it'll end up badly, like with Morrigan, and that'll actually make it much more worth while in my opinion.

I have never been as involved in any RPG romance as first time I played BG2 and did Viconia's romance. It's not this is the best written romance, it's just that back then I had no idea if I would end up getting her or not with my good character. The uncertainty adds so much.

#40
Terra_Ex

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MaliceDelight wrote...

Something along the lines of:
Warden: Where are we going with this
Morrigan: Did you expect we'd be living on a farm, you paint the shed, i'll bake the bread?

Possible answer 1:
Well if you dont want any of those things, nevermind.
Morrigan: I didn't say that exactally its just...Nevermind, i grow tired of this, lets discuss this another time.

Possibility 2:
Whats so wrong with that?
Morrigan: Are you serious "chuckles". You must be joking (along with a few other things) But also shows her weird confusion and inability to reveal anything.

Don't think I encountered that one - I had something along the lines of that first line for the Warden but cannot remember that conversation - I'll be on the lookout in a future playthrough.


If you say "thank you for everything" during the Final Battle she says that she could have done a lot more for you if it was a different time and you were different people. She also says: "I will always remember you my love". There is something huge here. She makes her feelings clear about you, and she obviously desires to be with you... but for some reason she can't.

Hmmm... for me, its more a case of every character in the game in my playthrough had at least some measure of closure, Morrigan's departure is more akin to your partner getting up and leaving you in the middle of the night for reasons unknown, never to be seen again - as a plot device, well played (if its going to be built upon in the future), but for players it's a double edged sword. If we look back at BG2:SoA, at the time, iirc one could take each of the original romances as having run its logical course to its final conclusion by the end of the game, which is what I think you're getting at here, yet these were still developed further in the later expansion.

blademaster7 wrote...
"Aren't we all wishing for a good ending with her story?"

Yes and no... moreso, wishing for "an" ending as I alluded to earlier.

blademaster7 wrote...
"She's your typical mysterious evil girl. You are starting to get to know her and you eventually see her softer side, she starts having feelings for you and at some parts of her dialogue you get the impression that she may just be trying to protect you. You discover an actual person with emotions behind the mask of the "evil witch". In the end though it still ends bad. You learned so much about her and yet you still know very little. So many questions unanswered."


Well, this is what I'm getting at, player's who romanced  herare in a
fantastic position as far as potential dialogue is concerned. There
is so much that could be done with her character, but for now its only
confirmed that she will return - what form this reappearance will take
is not yet clear. Of all the characters I've witnessed - there is still definitely scope for further development across the board in a future game, though naturally things would have to be mixed up by throwing in some new characters and discarding/sidelining some of the old. I think the BG series was succesful because we followed one character through his/her exploits until their adventures reached their ultimate conclusion. With many unresolved questions still to be answered across the board, I'm hoping to retain control of my current PC for at least the next core entry to the series. In Dragon Age, we're not playing a a god-child, though what potential changes the darkspawn blood may elicit in the Warden are currently unknown and naturally something I'd like to see explored in future journeys. Morrigan has helped the main character escape death for now - what if we're playing as a character who'd do anything to try and avoid his death sentence - again, something that can really only be explored by a continuation of the current PC.

nYshak wrote...
"True, blademaster7. And that is the reason why DA:O does not end happily with a PC romancing Morrigan. But that does not mean it has to stay that way in a sequel. To be honest what I liked about Morrigan was that - in contrast to Leliana - she isn't as much cliché. Leliana may have a dark past and whatnot but she always struck me as the typical girly girl who likes shoes and pets and make up and bla bla blah."


Leliana reminded me of Imoen somewhat.

I honestly don't know which way its gonna go - on the one hand I vaguely remember reading somewhere that we'd be able to take our character from DA:O forward through a series of games. I'm going to go off a bit of a tangent here, but bear with me.
 
The ending texts states that this was not the last that Ferelden hears of the MC - is this refering solely to DLC endeavours - are we to take the "true expansion" DLCs as Tales of the Sword Coast-esque filler episodes till the main plot resumes... we don't know - has Bioware even decided yet? On the other hand some are of the opinion that the next game should focus on a completely new MC. I note that both the MC's future exploits and Morrigan+child's fate are BOTH marked with "...for now" which hopefully bodes well.

Wikipedia says that Dragon Age was renamed to DA:Origins in 2008, does this mean that players select their "origin" in DA:O and then deal with differing responses throughout a series of games - or are we to create a character anew with each installment - to my knowledge, we don't know yet. I'm seeing quotes that seem to be pulling in all different directions with regards to DA as a franchise:

"Trilogies have not become a requirement at BioWare. "Dragon Age: Origins," their long announced return to the studio's classic "Baldur's Gate" roots, does not have a story arc that spans a specific number of games."
Do we take this to mean each game will be completely separate,  that we have separate arcs that focus on different characters/time periods, or that different arcs may run for an as yet undetermined number of games. Sorry to go somewhat off the core topic, but I felt its fairly relevant to the discussion at hand.

Xandurpein wrote...
I think that the fact that Morrigan's
story ends in tragedy is essential to her story. It would ruin the whole
story if she suddenly did a 180 turn and said it would be fine.
On
top of that I think it is great in a much larger context. Up until
Morrigan you had pretty much gotten used to getting the girl, and
finding the right words aren't really that hard. From now on, you will
always have the nagging fear that in this new game maybe it'll end up
badly, like with Morrigan, and that'll actually make it much more worth
while in my opinion.

I have never been as involved in any RPG romance
as first time I played BG2 and did Viconia's romance. It's not this is
the best written romance, it's just that back then I had no idea if I
would end up getting her or not with my good character. The uncertainty
adds so much.

Oh absolutely, I completely agree on both points, but we're at the point where we can enjoy speculating over the possibilities, twists like this in a game are rare and do promote healthy debate & are good for getting people talking about the game and the potential for the series.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 26 janvier 2010 - 05:26 .


#41
Gtdef

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I'm pretty sure that Bioware designed Morrigan to eventually fall in love with the Warden. Even the epilogue hints at this, saying that "there was a night that he was sure she was thinking of him but the ring said no more". I doubt that Bioware was trying to mislead us. While I don't know much about Dragon Age lore and I can't really understand what she is hoping to achieve, I think that Morrigan's purpose and burden was for good.



After all it's clear to me that Morrigan is not an evil character. A machiavellian one for sure but not evil in the usual rpg sense. She was kept in the dark and it is pretty safe to assume that she was raised for a single purpose, to complete the ritual, and later to be possessed by Flemeth. Now that Flemeth is out of the picture (at least in my playthrough), I'm pretty confident that letting her complete the ritual was the right thing to do.

#42
blademaster7

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Have no doubt that we will see Morrigan play some part in the sequel. Hopefuly we will get our answers then.

A canon ending on this storyline is very likely. Bioware may tell us that Morrigan ended up with a child no matter what.


I'll tell you now what I DON'T want to see in a sequel. I don't wanna start up the game and be prompt into a new character creation screen. After so many hours with your story you end up with so many questions
unanswered. I wouldn't like it one bit if my Warden is reduced to just a codex entry... a footnote in Morrigan's story, just another man that was manipulated by the Witch of the Wilds.

It's not just Morrigan's child, it is also YOUR child. If it ends up being a threat to Thedas then you are to blame as much as Morrigan. And I believe it's similar for female characters. It was your decision to make that night regarding the ritual.

It won't feel the same confronting her or the child as a new character. I won't even bother play... yes this game got into me that much

Modifié par blademaster7, 26 janvier 2010 - 05:14 .


#43
-Mozza-

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I have not read most replies but do not feel my questions deserves a whole new topic. I have only played the game once and did the ritual, I am going to play again and sacrifice myself this time my question; To make sure I die does that mean my character can not sleep with morrigan at all? Or can I sleep with her but just not before the archdemon battle?

#44
nYshak

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If you want to die, you have to:



- refuse Morrigans offer: the dark ritual before the final battle

- refuse Alistair/Loghain to kill the Archdemon



there. You're dead. Game over :)



I wouldn't like it one bit if my Warden is reduced to just a codex entry... a footnote in Morrigan's story, just another man that was manipulated by the Witch of the Wilds.




Could not have said it better myself. That is exactly how I feel. I'd love to see a somewhat "happy" ending to the Morrigan storyline, but I could live with it all ending in tragedy. But *I* as in "my character" wants to be part of it!

#45
darkmax1974

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I'm beginning to understand the truth about the dark ritual.... It is not complex at all. All it does is exponentially increase the rate of success for inpregnating Morrigan herself!! lol...



Morrigan is a very well written character, especially so when she is along side a 2D player character.

#46
Xandurpein

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I have said it before, and I'll say it again. I would be an awesome twist if there is a sequel somewhere down the line where the player is playing Morrigan's child. It could have so many interesting twists and revelations. Only remains to find out how to avoid a serious case of Oedipus complex...

#47
darkmax1974

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i hate playing god-child. Takes the fun out of everything.

#48
MaliceDelight

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blademaster7 wrote...

Have no doubt that we will see Morrigan play some part in the sequel. Hopefuly we will get our answers then.

A canon ending on this storyline is very likely. Bioware may tell us that Morrigan ended up with a child no matter what.


I'll tell you now what I DON'T want to see in a sequel. I don't wanna start up the game and be prompt into a new character creation screen. After so many hours with your story you end up with so many questions
unanswered. I wouldn't like it one bit if my Warden is reduced to just a codex entry... a footnote in Morrigan's story, just another man that was manipulated by the Witch of the Wilds.

It's not just Morrigan's child, it is also YOUR child. If it ends up being a threat to Thedas then you are to blame as much as Morrigan. And I believe it's similar for female characters. It was your decision to make that night regarding the ritual.

It won't feel the same confronting her or the child as a new character. I won't even bother play... yes this game got into me that much


I 100% agree. However, right now this is pure speculation. I do realise that to make a game thats sophisticated enough to adhear to all the choices we made would be one hell of a task.

I would like to see bioware continue with my pc cause as far as im concerned my story isn't finished, there was no "The End", if you make a movie....lets take "Fast and the furious" just because they did this.....how mad were you when the pulled a "to be continued" and then in fast and the furious 2 (the worst movie in the franchise) they replaced just about all of the main characters....and it wasn't even a close tie in story line!

I guess in summary, blademaster. If they want to continue the story and like you said, make me just a side note in the history, i probly will have little drive to play it or purchase it. I'll just use my imagination and keep telling myself everything worked out ok haha.

#49
Metalunatic

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Xandurpein wrote...

I have said it before, and I'll say it again. I would be an awesome twist if there is a sequel somewhere down the line where the player is playing Morrigan's child.


No. Way. I'll keep my old character, thank you.

Modifié par Metalunatic, 26 janvier 2010 - 08:06 .


#50
MaliceDelight

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Metalunatic wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I have said it before, and I'll say it again. I would be an awesome twist if there is a sequel somewhere down the line where the player is playing Morrigan's child.


No. Way. I'll keep my old character, thank you.


I totally agree, if i wanted to play a game like that i'd play prototype : D
(i do realise hes no god child, but man can he fling an SUV) :ph34r: