772 réponses à ce sujet

[AshenEndymion]

But what if one of their demands was that they be treated like every other law abiding citizen? 

 

My question would be: Which laws?

 

In Tevinter, mages are treated as law abiding citizens.  The law being, "if you are a mage, anyone without magic is subservient to you.  And those with magic might be subservient to you if they aren't as powerful as you."  I'm not really interested in living in a Thedas with that law....  At least not if I'm not a mage.

 

What's even worse is that Tevinter mages first got "equal rights", and used those "equal rights" to return themselves into the overlords over the non-magically inclined.  The very idea that such a thing wouldn't happen in the rest of Thedas is crazy.

[PsychoBlonde]

What in the world does "deserve" have to do with it?  Freedom isn't something you EARN.  It's something you either have a right to, or you don't.

[Aaleel]

It has prevented Uldreds and other Would-Be Magisters for the past 900 years. One moderately sucessfull rebellion in all that time is a very good track record.

 

The Hero of Ferelden is a Warden; they're not kept in the Circles.

And yes, the freedoms of every single one you mentioned should be restricted. Because they are all dangerous. Because they can be possessed. Possible good character does not change these facts; until we can perfectly determine which mages will threaten the security and freedoms of normal people and which won't, I think we should apply restrictions to all of them much like every other citizen has his or her freedoms restricted for the safety of those around.

 

Normal children can't, by themselves, do what Connor did. A sword or a bow are not as dangerous as magic.

 

Also, they're not locked up in the Circles day and night for the rest of their lives. Bethany was allowed to leave to attend a party. You just have to prove you're trustworthy enough.

 

Let' see, if the OGB was taken to Orlais' Circle, he'd live in Emperor Drakon's former palace and receive top notch education usually reserved to nobles and he'd be kept from hurting himself and others so... sure, why not?

In fact, being sent to the Circle is an upgrade for every mage that wasn't born a noble.

 

You realize you cited an exception while at the same time saying there should be no exceptions?  Which is it?

[MisterJB]

You realize you cited an exception while at the same time saying there should be no exceptions?  Which is it?

 

I didn't cite an exception. We have many instances of mages being allowed to leave the Circle temporarely.

Irving, Wynne, Ines, Bethany, Rhis, Adrian, Finn.

You just have to prove you are trustworthy.
 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Was this a joke?  Non mages never waged war for no other reason than to conquer land costing who knows how many lives?  Non mages didn't engage in slave trade, or pack a group of people into slums like sardines, and use them as servants?  Non mages don't abuse mages and oppress them in circles?

 

There are bad mages, but let's not sit here and act like non-mages are saints.  Non-mages have all the power so honestly that makes them more dangerous if anything.

It is still fighting for order it is just order vs order in the end of both is stability for their own societies.When i said that non-mages can't be slavers it doesn't rly matter as i said it isn't about crimes or hurting individual it is about destruction that mages cause. 

 

It isn't about evil or good mages or even morality "good" or "evil" (not mention it is matter of opinion) mage can end as abomination or cause disaster.In the end every mage is walking bomb regardless of morality.

[PsychoBlonde]

 

What's even worse is that Tevinter mages first got "equal rights", and used those "equal rights" to return themselves into the overlords over the non-magically inclined.  The very idea that such a thing wouldn't happen in the rest of Thedas is crazy.

Maybe, maybe not.  No one in Thedas has a conceptual idea of "equal rights".  No one.  Anywhere.  So there haven't been any examples of places where mages are regarded as equally free AND equally responsible.

 

Magic and the concept of nobility where some are more equal than others don't work well.  But you could say that about ANY source of power.   Prior to the Enlightenment in the real world there was never-ending warfare and destruction and intriguing and slavery pretty much EVERYWHERE.

So, yeah, you can't have mage freedom in a vacuum where nobody's really free and the concepts that create freedom don't even exist.  But, then again, you can't really have freedom for ANYONE in that situation.  It's just a mess of competing interests and constant backstabbing.  Which also means that there's no solid evidence that mages are actually worse than anyone else.

[lil yonce]

I didn't cite an exception. We have many instances of mages being allowed to leave the Circle temporarely.

Irving, Wynne, Ines, Bethany, Rhis, Adrian, Finn.

You just have to prove you are trustworthy.
 

None of them advocate for the current version of the Circle and either hid from it or undermine it with the exception of Finn who doesn't provide an opinion IIRC. I don't think their getting leave or trustworthiness means that the Circle works well as is.

[MisterJB]

What's even worse is that Tevinter mages first got "equal rights", and used those "equal rights" to return themselves into the overlords over the non-magically inclined.  The very idea that such a thing wouldn't happen in the rest of Thedas is crazy.

Well said.

Mages have an inherent advantage over other people and it is naive to believe they won't use it to get ahead which will, in time, lead to mages controlling the infrastructure of society. It is inevitable if they are given equal rights.

[TheKomandorShepard]

chop

Eee tell me please then what thing that i said is wrong? But i don't expect much from person that was aruging with me that knows better what i have said than me and twisting my words for own convenience accusing me of something I did not say.

[Aaleel]

I didn't cite an exception. We have many instances of mages being allowed to leave the Circle temporarely.

Irving, Wynne, Ines, Bethany, Rhis, Adrian, Finn.

You just have to prove you are trustworthy.
 

 

You said Wardens aren't kept in circles, that's an exception.  That's my question, if the Warden was a mage, after he/she saved Ferelden should they have been locked up?

 

So now we've moved the goal posts, if the mage proves trustworthy?  I thought they were all a danger and should be locked up regardless.

[MissMagi]

My question would be: Which laws?

 

In Tevinter, mages are treated as law abiding citizens.  The law being, "if you are a mage, anyone without magic is subservient to you.  And those with magic might be subservient to you if they aren't as powerful as you."  I'm not really interested in living in a Thedas with that law....  At least not if I'm not a mage.

 

What's even worse is that Tevinter mages first got "equal rights", and used those "equal rights" to return themselves into the overlords over the non-magically inclined.  The very idea that such a thing wouldn't happen in the rest of Thedas is crazy.

Tevinter is just one nation in Thedas, and not even the most powerful one. It shouldn't be assumed that giving mages equal rights will inevitably lead to a situation like theirs. 

[TK514]

I didn't cite an exception. We have many instances of mages being allowed to leave the Circle temporarely.

Irving, Wynne, Ines, Bethany, Rhis, Adrian, Finn.

You just have to prove you are trustworthy.
 

 

And Wilhelm, who was allowed to live outside the Circle permanently (and who enjoyed terrorizing the villagers in Honnleath)

 

None of them advocate for the current version of the Circle and either hid from it or undermine it with the exception of Finn who doesn't provide an opinion IIRC. I don't think their getting leave or trustworthiness means that the Circle works well as is.

 

Wynne argues that the current Circle is necessary, and is instrumental in preventing Fiona's first vote on Mage separation from passing.

 

Edit:  And Bethany has nothing bad to say about the Circle itself.  She is relieved to be there.  The worst she says is that some of the Templars are potentially bad, but that they are generally kept in check by those who are not.

 

You said Wardens aren't kept in circles, that's an exception.  That's my question, if the Warden was a mage, after he/she saved Ferelden should they have been locked up?

 

So now we've moved the goal posts, if the mage proves trustworthy?  I thought they were all a danger and should be locked up regardless.

 

Warden mages aren't a specific exception because Wardens in general are THE exception.  Murderer, thief, regicide, mage, all are forgiven by the Joining.  Wardens break the rules, so they can't be used as examples either way.

 

Tevinter is just one nation in Thedas, and not even the most powerful one. It shouldn't be assumed that giving mages equal rights will inevitably lead to a situation like theirs. 

 

Debatable.  Were they not locked in a death grip with the Qunari, they very well could be the most powerful nation in Thedas.  As it is, they're at least as powerful as Orlais.

[MisterJB]

You said Wardens aren't kept in circles, that's an exception.  That's my question, if the Warden was a mage, after he/she saved Ferelden should they have been locked up?

Ah, true. Well, mage Wardens are kept in check by their non-mage Warden companions and the Taint.

 

So now we've moved the goal posts, if the mage proves trustworthy?  I thought they were all a danger and should be locked up regardless.

I haven't. Every mage should spend their lives in the Circle.

However, mages can be given leave to travel the outside world for varied reasons if they prove themselves trustworthy. Finn was allowed leave to fulfill a pet project, Irving to save a possessed child, Rhis just to visit Val-Royeaux.

Of course, they are expected to return to the Circle after they are done much like your or me would return home after a day of work. They aren't allowed to make a life outside of the Circle nor should they be.

It's too dangerous to the security and freedom of non-mage people.

[MisterJB]

Tevinter is just one nation in Thedas, and not even the most powerful one. It shouldn't be assumed that giving mages equal rights will inevitably lead to a situation like theirs. 

Every non-Andrastean nation in Thedas has mages in positions of power. Tevinter-Magisters, Dales-Keepers, Chasind-Shamans, Rivain-Seers. The systems may not be the same but the mages are always leaders.

It seems that without the Circle, society inevitably turns into a magocracy.

[AshenEndymion]

 

Tevinter is just one nation in Thedas, and not even the most powerful one. It shouldn't be assumed that giving mages equal rights will inevitably lead to a situation like theirs. 

 

Tevinter, Dalish, Rivain.  The three "nations" that allow their mages autonomy, and in all three the mages are in a "supervisory" role over the non-mages.  Rivian is the least extreme of the three, though, because those with magic are treated more like spiritual leaders than anything else.  And I don't think that It really matters that the Dalish have been brainwashed into thinking that it's "tradition" for the mages to rule them...

 

I appreciate the situation the mages are in.  If I were a mage, I'd probably be pissed and on-board with the whole "I deserve to be treated as any 'normal' person" shtick.  But from the random peasant's standpoint, they only have a shot of murdering the lord that mistreats them if that lord is not a mage...  Nobody here honestly thinks the city-elf is saving Shiala from a mage version of Vaughan Kendalls, do they?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Spell check is your friend. Use it.

Well im still waiting you posted facepalm now you should explain what is wrong with my post about mages... unless it was put there just to look cool...

[Aaleel]

Warden mages aren't a specific exception because Wardens in general are THE exception.  Murderer, thief, regicide, mage, all are forgiven by the Joining.  Wardens break the rules, so they can't be used as examples either way.
 

 

I most definitely can use them as an example.  Go back and read the entire conversation.  I'm being told that it's not about morality, not about right or wrong, not about if the person is a criminal or not.  People are saying that mages should be locked up just because they could one day harm people.  Basically they're a ticking time bomb that needs to be kept locked away for everyones' protection.

 

So yeah, I can ask this question.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I most definitely can use them as an example.  Go back and read the entire conversation.  I'm being told that it's not about morality, not about right or wrong, not about if the person is a criminal or not.  People are saying that mages should be locked up just because they could one day harm people.  Basically they're a ticking time bomb that needs to be kept locked away for everyones' protection.

 

So yeah, I can ask this question.

Well it was me who was saying that not him (so don't blame him) and i don't necessarily support mage wardens.

[Aaleel]

Ah, true. Well, mage Wardens are kept in check by their non-mage Warden companions and the Taint.

 

I haven't. Every mage should spend their lives in the Circle.

However, mages can be given leave to travel the outside world for varied reasons if they prove themselves trustworthy. Finn was allowed leave to fulfill a pet project, Irving to save a possessed child, Rhis just to visit Val-Royeaux.

Of course, they are expected to return to the Circle after they are done much like your or me would return home after a day of work. They aren't allowed to make a life outside of the Circle nor should they be.

It's too dangerous to the security and freedom of non-mage people.

 

So mages that have done more to help keep people safe and benefit non-mages than most non-mages have should be locked up because they're dangerous to non mages?  This is the line of thought I don't get.

 

There are plenty of non-mages that are criminals and done foul acts, but under this line of thought this person who has proven to be a criminal is less of a threat than a person who has never come close to committing a crime and in some cases has saved non mage lives or kept them safe.  Just doesn't make any sense to me.

[TK514]

I most definitely can use them as an example.  Go back and read the entire conversation.  I'm being told that it's not about morality, not about right or wrong, not about if the person is a criminal or not.  People are saying that mages should be locked up just because they could one day harm people.  Basically they're a ticking time bomb that needs to be kept locked away for everyones' protection.

 

So yeah, I can ask this question.

 

And Wardens are an exception to everything.  No crime, no status, no flaw is too great that the Joining does not wipe it away.  Most major crimes in Thedas end in execution of the convicted for the good of society.  Forget being locked up.  Yet the Joining frees them from almost all accountability.  Mages are treated no differently than anyone else in that respect.

 

So, again, Wardens are a general exception, mage Wardens are not a specific one.

[TheKomandorShepard]

So mages that have done more to help keep people safe and benefit non-mages than most non-mages have should be locked up because they're dangerous to non mages?  This is the line of thought I don't get.

 

There are plenty of non-mages that are criminals and done foul acts, but under this line of thought this person who has proven to be a criminal is less of a threat than a person who has never come close to committing a crime and in some cases has saved non mage lives or kept them safe.  Just doesn't make any sense to me.

Ok lets ask that how do you know which mage will cause disaster or will turn into abomnation? You can't even to larger extent than with normal humans.Now lets tell we have serial killer he will hurt at best dozens peoples (and he/she would need be really successful).Now one mage is greater threat than non-mage criminal and don't even need to be criminal to be threat.It is like gun and nuclear bomb you don't treat them same way despite that both can be dangerous question is how dangerous they are.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Ah, the "Mages are walking nuclear weapons" argument. It's been a while. 

[Aaleel]

And Wardens are an exception to everything.  No crime, no status, no flaw is too great that the Joining does not wipe it away.  Most major crimes in Thedas end in execution of the convicted for the good of society.  Forget being locked up.  Yet the Joining frees them from almost all accountability.  Mages are treated no differently than anyone else in that respect.

 

So, again, Wardens are a general exception, mage Wardens are not a specific one.

 

All of that is irrelevant to my question.  Someone said that regardless of what good acts a mage has done they don't deserve their freedom.  All I'm asking is if this person thinks his mage Warden, Hawke, Inquisitor, or the hero of Ferelden in general if a mage should be locked up as a threat.  The rules that apply to Wardens are irrelevant to whether this person thinks they should be locked up.