772 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

"Fear makes men more dangerous than magic ever could" by advocating the genocide you are the cause of all the mages problems they would be too scared to learn about magic and therefor the consequence of it, It is fear and desperation that drive them to demons, if you treat others with respect and kindness they will show you it too and they wouldn't "explode"

Ehh someone lives in utopian world...

That you threat others with respect and kindness doesn't mean they will return it or it will solve all problems...

World is much more complex than that not mention it is dark fantasy.

And then as i said morality doesn't matter here because demon can possess every mage from nicest person you have ever seen to puppy kicking mage.

[Sylanaar]

Ehh someone lives in utopian world...

That you threat others with respect and kindness doesn't mean they will return it or it will solve all problems...

World is much more complex than that not mention it is dark fantasy.

And then as i said morality doesn't matter here because demon can possess every mage from nicest person you have ever seen to puppy kicking mage.

Demons could also posses non-mages...dark fantasy doesn't mean everyone is evil ,Morality is important otherwise we end up with people like you.

[MisterJB]

"Fear makes men more dangerous than magic ever could" by advocating the genocide you are the cause of all the mages problems they would be too scared to learn about magic and therefor the consequence of it, It is fear and desperation that drive them to demons, if you treat others with respect and kindness they will show you it too and they wouldn't "explode"

 

That is naive. I'm not about to advocate the mass killing of mages but many people treated with respect and kindness turn upon their benefactors.

It is even more frequent when we aren't simply referring to individuals but groups as a whole.

 

Fear may lead to people lashing out and raising mobs against mages but it wasn't fear that created thr Magisters. There needs to be a middle ground and the Circle is it.
 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Demons could also posses non-mages...dark fantasy doesn't mean everyone is evil ,Morality is important otherwise we end up with people like you.

As far such cases were only when demon was already in "real" world or was forced by mage there is no single case where non-mage was possessed by demon while that was still in the fade.

 

Perhaps not but it pretty much means that hugging other peoples won't solve problems or make them nice. 

 

Besides what do you mean peoples like me im fine individual and i wasn't even in jail.

[Sylanaar]

That is naive. I'm not about to advocate the mass killing of mages but many people treated with respect and kindness turn upon their benefactors.

It is even more frequent when we aren't simply referring to individuals but groups as a whole.

 

Fear may lead to people lashing out and raising mobs against mages but it wasn't fear that created thr Magisters. There needs to be a middle ground and the Circle is it.
 

Its not naive to think that being kind can help, expecting people to all agree with you is...that why the circle is my solution albeit in a independent school type system where they can see their families and such, i also believe nonmages should be able to study there.

[aTigerslunch]

Yep, if I was having the mage powers, I wouldnt be aggressive to anyone. I have restraint.... more so than my dad actually believed, along with everyone else that seen what I been through. My patience is more than even couple priests cant believe I have.

 

If that says anything..... and I know I am not the only one.... sorta.. most people around me seem too surprised by it.

 

Not every mage is dangerous and unstable. That would be saying, everyone is dangerous and unstable, cause they are normal human/elf/qunari till they manifest magic.  Thereby saying everyone is unstable, remember, they are "normal" till the point they manifest magic. Normal = unstable in this instance then.

[aTigerslunch]

 uh.... yeah. ok.. the little girl isnt a mage, runs into a demon that appears as a cat, which if the Warden allows the escape of said demon, inhabits a human girl. Not a mage. Yep, no history written of someone normal being possessed exists........ that little girl wasnt alive I guess then.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 uh.... yeah. ok.. the little girl isnt a mage, runs into a demon that appears as a cat, which if the Warden allows the escape of said demon, inhabits a human girl. Not a mage. Yep, no history written of someone normal being possessed exists........ that little girl wasnt alive I guess then.

We don't know if little girl wasn't mage or was we don't have any informations on that she may or not be mage but in fact it still fits to thing i have said before demon was already in "real" world summoned by mage.

[DarthLaxian]

or should they always have supervision?

I see points on both sides, magic is dangerous, such as just 1 untrained child having the possibility of destroying a village by himself or Tevinter mages being allowed to police themselves only to retake power but i also see that the circles can be open to abuses by particularly unpleasant templars who sometimes push mages into doing stupid things like using blood magic which then turns the population against magic even more.

Id prefer a middle ground, something like the Ferelden circle where Irving & Gregagoir had a mostly even relationship based on respect rather then Kirkwall where the rank of First Enchanter mostly ment nothing & the templars were seemingly free to do anything they wanted causing more more anger & resentment.

I support the circle still existing, a more even & fair version like Ferelden world be best IMO if DA:I allows it. Your thoughts?

 

 

Even relationship?

 

No, one was constantly pushed to use deceit to show his side of things (and he didn't have much wiggle room either!) and the other was a zealot (yes: one with a cool head - at least compared to others) who was sure in his power...yes, they respected each other - but they didn't like the other!

 

To answer your question:

 

Yes, they deserve freedom (no one deserves being locked up because he was born...), the freedom to police themselves (with the towns and cities having templars to defend the "mundanes")...just make the circles mandatory (till someone has learned control and let them leave afterwards...a lot of mages might not want to pursue magic at all other than learning to control (and hide) it and live normal productive lives, maybe inherit from their parents (which mages can't currently), learn a trade etc.)...

 

Yes, control (over ones magic) needs to be learned, but anything else should be voluntary!

 

greetings LAX

ps: Locking someone up without due cause (fear is not due cause and a child being unable to control magic isn't either...can't expect a child to know how!) is against everything I believe in (like slavery...with the exception of killers and rapists, they should work to atone for their crimes - unless the family wants them dead (I am in favour of capital punishment for certain crimes))

[Xandurpein]

Does mages deserve freedom? Of course they do. Can they have it? Only some of them. It's not just about the fear that mages have capabilities that they can use to control or harm people. That can be regulated in the law to some extent. It's the fact that mages can become abominations too. Only mages that can be adequately trained so the risk they become abominations can be minimized can be free, I think. Not because the others deserve to be locked up or made tranquil, but because society will demand it. People are people. If mages are thought to be a grave danger to society, because of the risk that they become abominations are too great, then mages will be shunned and excluded from society, regardless of if they are free or not.

Imagine that in our enlightened society, we can isolate a gene linked to excessive violence, and can say that anyone carrying the gene runs a 25% chance of becoming a homocidal maniac. Would people just accept that this, and demand they have a right to be free, or would they demand that these people be supervised?

That doesn't mean that I think it's brilliant to have an organization like the Chantry overseeing the mages. On the contrary. Neither do I think it's fair, but I don't think fairness is the big issue.

[MissMagi]

Every non-Andrastean nation in Thedas has mages in positions of power. Tevinter-Magisters, Dales-Keepers, Chasind-Shamans, Rivain-Seers. The systems may not be the same but the mages are always leaders.

It seems that without the Circle, society inevitably turns into a magocracy.

Is there something fundamentally wrong with mages having some power? While Tevinter may severely restrict the rights of it's mundanes, this is not the case anywhere else that we know of. Rivaini seers are respected members of the community who serve a function that only mages can (communicating with spirits)- they are not the rulers of the land. They pledge allegiance to Rivain's queen and look after the welfare of the community in general. Also, before the Chantry decided their Circle had to be annulled, it was the Andrastian nobles who allowed them their freedom- provided they assist the templars when required. The Chasind are lead by their shamans, but I don't see any problem with this. They are said to lead largely peaceful lives. The Dalish mostly just want to be left alone. The clans choose their Keepers to lead because they respect them and it is tradition. They still consider themselves equals. You may remember this exchange between Master IIen and two of his apprentices:

"Master, what's wrong?"

"Nothing, da'len. Pack those tools. We're leaving."

"But the Keeper didn't say..."

"Just do it. We're leaving. Whether the clan is or not is up to them."

[TheKomandorShepard]

Is there something fundamentally wrong with mages having some power? While Tevinter may severely restrict the rights of it's mundanes, this is not the case anywhere else that we know of. Rivaini seers are respected members of the community who serve a function that only mages can (communicating with spirits)- they are not the rulers of the land. They pledge allegiance to Rivain's queen and look after the welfare of the community in general. Also, before the Chantry decided their Circle had to be annulled, it was the Andrastian nobles who allowed them their freedom- provided they assist the templars when required. The Chasind are lead by their shamans, but I don't see any problem with this. They are said to lead largely peaceful lives. The Dalish mostly just want to be left alone. The clans choose their Keepers to lead because they respect them and it is tradition. They still consider themselves equals. You may remember this exchange between Master IIen and two of his apprentices:

"Master, what's wrong?"

"Nothing, d'alen. Pack those tools. We're leaving."

"But the Keeper didn't say..."

"Just do it. We're leaving. Whether the clan is or not is up to them."

Everything nice and fine on the picture but in reality not so much.Why it is bad and where is difference between mage authority and non-mage authority?Well let's start that:

1.In first place mage authority possess not only political but also personal power so such authority can pull might makes right and do what they like to others when no one can stop them.In case of personal power non-mage authority is smiliar to other peoples and when such authority lose own peoples they are defenseless. 

2.Mages are walking bombs and masters in causing disasters you talk how pretty things are in Rivian and among dalish elves but as far we know that isn't in case.As far 4 of 5 dalish clans had mages that caused a lot of trouble and mess and 1 dalish clan deals with 2-3 mages what we can't even compare large of number mages to deal with.Then seers become abomnations pretty much great way to cause even more disasters and problems.

[MisterJB]

Is there something fundamentally wrong with mages having some power? While Tevinter may severely restrict the rights of it's mundanes, this is not the case anywhere else that we know of.

Not if you're a mage. Most normal people in Thedas would prefer to run their own societies, it's why they rebelled from Tevinter in the first place.

Benevolent oligarchies are still oligarchies. And ultimately, they are mantained with the wellbeing of those who are in charge in mind, not those beneath them.

A good example of this is mage ruled Rivain. It may not be as opressive as Tevinter but there people are taught that Abominations are natural disasters and thus the best people can do is bunker down and wait for it to pass.

Meanwhile, in non-mage ruled Ferelden, people are taught that Abominations are caused by the acts of mages and demons that thus they bear a responsability to prevent them from happening because they can be avoided.

 

Evidently, Rivain's cultured is steered towards not turning people against their mage rulers even if this leaves them defenseless before Abominations.

 

Hence why it's important that non-mages rule their own societies. Besides the fact that they are the ones who bult those societies and thus they are the ones who should decide their fate, not mages.

 

Rivaini seers are respected members of the community who serve a function that only mages can (communicating with spirits)- they are not the rulers of the land. They pledge allegiance to Rivain's queen and look after the welfare of the community in general.

 

"All decisions involving the wellfare of most Rivaini communities rest solely with the eldest women. The most senior of these women are called seers, who freely practice magic."

 

A quote from "The World of Thedas." Seers are rulers, make no mistake.
Magisters would also say they are only looking out for the welfare of the community.

 

The Chasind are lead by their shamans, but I don't see any problem with this. They are said to lead largely peaceful lives.

If there is no problem with mages ruling over normal people, why would you oppose when it is normals who rule over rmages?

 

 

 The Dalish mostly just want to be left alone. The clans choose their Keepers to lead because they respect them and it is tradition. They still consider themselves equals. You may remember this exchange between Master IIen and two of his apprentices:

"Master, what's wrong?"

"Nothing, d'alen. Pack those tools. We're leaving."

"But the Keeper didn't say..."

"Just do it. We're leaving. Whether the clan is or not is up to them."

The Casteless are also a tradition.

It is probably no coincidence that the elves who see magic in a positive light also live under an authoritarian magocracy.

And yes, it is an authoritarian magocracy. That exchange proves it. The Keeper was making bad calls after bad calls for no reason other than that she couldn't bear to be parted from Merril and there was nothing the elves could do to circunvemt the Keeper or remove her from her position.

All they could do was abandon the clan.

 

Have we ever seen a Keeper ever having his/her decisions overturned by a vote or something else from the others members of the clan? No.

[Lulupab]

The thing is Thedas is a magical world and there will always be magical problems that only magic can fix.

 

The logic is simple, a mage has knowledge about both magic and mundane problems and therefore can find a way to fix both. "White Thedas" relies on circles to fix problems associated with magic but don't you think if the rulers were mages themselves it would be so much easier? Its not all about power, Mage rulers are simply so much more efficient than none-mage ones. This is more true about nomadic people such as Rivain and the Dalish.

[MisterJB]

The thing is Thedas is a magical world and there will always be magical problems that only magic can fix.

 

The logic is simple, a mage has knowledge about both magic and mundane problems and therefore can find a way to fix both. "White Thedas" relies on circles to fix problems associated with magic but don't you think if the rulers were mages themselves it would be so much easier? Its not all about power, Mage rulers are simply so much more efficient than none-mage ones. This is more true about nomadic people such as Rivain and the Dalish.

If there is danger of an epidemic, the government calls for doctors to give opinions, they aren't named prime-ministers on the spot.

Magic is 100% irrelevant regarding the capability to rule; it is a tool that allows one to usurp power but it does not make one more qualified to make decisions for the good of societies.

[Lulupab]

If there is danger of an epidemic, the government calls for doctors to give opinions, they aren't named prime-ministers on the spot.

Magic is 100% irrelevant regarding the capability to rule; it is a tool that allows one to usurp power but it does not make one more qualified to make decisions for the good of societies.

 

Bold part: It actually does in nomadic societies or even warrior societies. The strongest/most efficient person is always the leader in such societies and in Thedas' case that's the mages. If its a big "civilized" society then I agree, being a mage does not make that much of a difference.

 

The whole magocracy thing is conspiracy theory.

[TheKomandorShepard]

To be honest dalish ruling system isn't very different than most Thedas have majority have little to say about what decisions s/he makes closest thing to that were ferelden and orzammar where nobles vote but even then far from majority.

 

 

 

The thing is Thedas is a magical world and there will always be magical problems that only magic can fix.

 

The logic is simple, a mage has knowledge about both magic and mundane problems and therefore can find a way to fix both. "White Thedas" relies on circles to fix problems associated with magic but don't you think if the rulers were mages themselves it would be so much easier? Its not all about power, Mage rulers are simply so much more efficient than none-mage ones. This is more true about nomadic people such as Rivain and the Dalish.

magical problems that mages in 99 % cases cause. In fact only problem with magical nautre that isn't caused by mages would be weak veil because of carnage problem that mages can't fix anyway and mostly mages are one who tore or weaken veil.

[Lulupab]

To be honest dalish ruling system isn't very different than most Thedas have majority have little to say about what decisions s/he makes closest thing to that were ferelden and orzammar where nobles vote but even then far from majority.

 

 

 

magical problems that mages in 99 % cases cause. In fact only problem with magical nautre that isn't caused by mages would be weak veil because of carnage problem that mages can't fix anyway and mostly mages are one who tore or weaken veil.

 

That's the nature of the world and Thedas as well. Killers are stopped by other killers or at least people who are trained to kill. Magic is property of Thedas not the people because they have no way of changing it if they are living in that world. Also there have been major veil tears in every single war, particularly battlefields, that happened in thedas regardless of presence of mages. Brecilian Forest is one such a place, battles tore the veil not mages and now the strongest of mages cannot mend it.

 

Thedas has Lyrium.

 

Thedas has Dragons.

 

Blood has magical properties in Thedas.

 

And the list goes on... its not just the mages.

 

Thedas is a magical world. Deal with it.

[TheKomandorShepard]

That's the nature of the world and Thedas as well. Killers are stopped by other killers or at least people who are trained to kill. Magic is property of Thedas not the people because they have no way of changing it if they are living in that world. Also there have been major veil tears in every single war, particularly battlefields, that happened in thedas regardless of presence of mages. Brecilian Forest is one such a place, battles tore the veil not mages and now the strongest of mages cannot mend it.

 

Thedas has Lyrium.

 

Thedas has Dragons.

 

Blood has magical properties in Thedas.

 

And the list goes on... its not just the mages.

 

Thedas is a magical world. Deal with it.

Eee nope don't try add problems that don't exist or push them on non-mages where mages were to blame.

First Brecilian Forest was place where stronlgy magical forces met on the battlefield pretty much im not suprised that resulted in weak veil.

As far only 1 place where veil was weak that we saw and that was caused non-mages was elven orphanage.If battle was enough cause problems with veil pretty much entire thedas would be already overrun by demons hell even darkspawn that are super brutal didn't do that in denerim or other places. 

 

Lyrium don't cause magical problems as far i know not counting red lyrium that is now and somehow i doubt that i would need mages to deal with it...

 

And what is with dragons?They may be magical or not (for me they are rather fantasy creatures) but pretty sure that mages weren't one who hunted them down almost to extinction in fact it was other way mages were one who worshiped them.

 

So what sure it may have but if you aren't mage or rather blood mage you won't do much with that next... 

 

So no mages still are those who in 99 % cases cause magical problems.

[The Baconer]

Qunari doesn't really pose a threat to the commoners of Thedas though. At least not beyond that their lords will conscript them into fighting.

 

Other than, you know, being forced to relinquish their own religious beliefs at the threat of "re-education".

[lil yonce]

Not if you're a mage. Most normal people in Thedas would prefer to run their own societies, it's why they rebelled from Tevinter in the first place.

Benevolent oligarchies are still oligarchies. And ultimately, they are mantained with the wellbeing of those who are in charge in mind, not those beneath them.

A good example of this is mage ruled Rivain. It may not be as opressive as Tevinter but there people are taught that Abominations are natural disasters and thus the best people can do is bunker down and wait for it to pass.

Meanwhile, in non-mage ruled Ferelden, people are taught that Abominations are caused by the acts of mages and demons that thus they bear a responsability to prevent them from happening because they can be avoided.

 

Evidently, Rivain's cultured is steered towards not turning people against their mage rulers even if this leaves them defenseless before Abominations.

 

Hence why it's important that non-mages rule their own societies. Besides the fact that they are the ones who bult those societies and thus they are the ones who should decide their fate, not mages.

 

 

"All decisions involving the wellfare of most Rivaini communities rest solely with the eldest women. The most senior of these women are called seers, who freely practice magic."

 

A quote from "The World of Thedas." Seers are rulers, make no mistake.
Magisters would also say they are only looking out for the welfare of the community.

 

If there is no problem with mages ruling over normal people, why would you oppose when it is normals who rule over rmages?

I think the better distinction is mage and non-mage or mage and mundane. Mage and "normals" has a terrible implication behind it.

 

Mages and non-mages live in the same societies, so the argument that non-mages want to "run their own societies" - societies are not exclusive to them and never have been. And no one wants to be lorded over - more even representation in institutions of power and influence is the most correct course and not cutting one group out of all real decision making.

 

There is no indication that Rivain is oppressed by its seers. They only exist in the most rural and traditional parts of the country, and they work with non-mage matriarchal leadership and subordinates. And the capital is run by an Andrastian nobility, so no I wouldn't say that Rivain is oppressed by mages or at all close to it.

 

I don't think circumstance can be disregarded when discussing abominations. After training, it doesn't seem that most mages, even living under the many stresses and displeasures of the circle, "fall prey" to demons. They take up with them of their own accord, and that we've seen the most abominations in circles, provoked by or related to circle conditions, demonstrates that the current circle is no solution to abominations.

[MisterJB]

Bold part: It actually does in nomadic societies or even warrior societies. The strongest/most efficient person is always the leader in such societies and in Thedas' case that's the mages. If its a big "civilized" society then I agree, being a mage does not make that much of a difference.

 

The whole magocracy thing is conspiracy theory.

 

Ok, let' take a look at the Sabrae Clan. The clan just spent seven years in proximity of the center of Templar power in the East; keep mind that clans spend months, at most, near small villages; this is the equivalent of spending seven years near Denerim. After all this time, some elves have ideas on how to ensure the security and survival of the clan.

 

Keeper Marethari, a mage: Keep waiting around for Merril to change her mind. If this fail, become host for demon.

 

Ilen, a non-mage: Pack our **** and go.

 

Now, who is the most eficient leader in this case?
 

[The Baconer]

Benevolent oligarchies are still oligarchies. And ultimately, they are mantained with the wellbeing of those who are in charge in mind, not those beneath them.

 

And what government in Thedas does not operate in this fashion, aside from the Qunari and the Dalish?

[LobselVith8]

To be honest dalish ruling system isn't very different than most Thedas have majority have little to say about what decisions s/he makes closest thing to that were ferelden and orzammar where nobles vote but even then far from majority.

 

I think it's difference in respect to how, if there are multiple candidates, you have to prove you're capable of handling the responsibilities of serving the People as their Keeper; Lanaya competed with several others for the position of First, after all, which makes it unique to most known societies in the Andrastian kingdoms that rule by merit of 'noble blood', like the Orlesian Empire and Ferelden.

 

magical problems that mages in 99 % cases cause. In fact only problem with magical nautre that isn't caused by mages would be weak veil because of carnage problem that mages can't fix anyway and mostly mages are one who tore or weaken veil.

 

I don't think you can quantify that with any sincerity, as there are no known statistics addressing this; a place with a thin veil, like the Brecillian Forest, is problematic due to the amount of death that transpired in the area, not because of mages per say, and spirits can enter trees, animals, and even people without the aid of mages.