772 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

Let's not forget that Ferelden is also run by an oligarchy, namely it's nobles. I think that practically it's near impossible to mix the two types of oligarchy. Either you have a mage oligarchy ruling or you have a traditional feudal nobility, based on lineage. None of them are really acceptable, by modern standards though.

[LobselVith8]

Ok, let' take a look at the Sabrae Clan. The clan just spent seven years in proximity of the center of Templar power in the East; keep mind that clans spend months, at most, near small villages; this is the equivalent of spending seven years near Denerim. After all this time, some elves have ideas on how to ensure the security and survival of the clan.

 

Keeper Marethari, a mage: Keep waiting around for Merril to change her mind. If this fail, become host for demon.

 

Ilen, a non-mage: Pack our **** and go.

 

Now, who is the most eficient leader in this case?

 

Ilen is a hahren, and therefore a person with authority within the clan; whether or not he knowingly opposed Marethari's decision is never addressed, or if he did and was simply overruled by the other hahren who didn't dispute the decision. Unfortunately, the internal workings of the hahren of the Sabrae Clan and the decision to remain at Sundermount were never delved into, aside from Merrill pointing out to Marethari that it was asinine.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I think it's difference in respect to how, if there are multiple candidates, you have to prove you're capable of handling the responsibilities of serving the People as their Keeper; Lanaya competed with several others for the position of First, after all, which makes it unique to most known societies in the Andrastian kingdoms that rule by merit of 'noble blood', like the Orlesian Empire and Ferelden.

 

 

I don't think you can quantify that with any sincerity, as there are no known statistics addressing this; a place with a thin veil, like the Brecillian Forest, is problematic due to the amount of death that transpired in the area, not because of mages per say, and spirits can enter trees, animals, and even people without the aid of mages.

Still rest have little to say about that and their decision and only mages instead nobles can candidate reminds me little orzammar situation with king.

 

I can as far judge that by frequency of that caused by mages and that caused by non-mages as far we saw at least few cases where mages did it and only 1 where non-mages did it.Using magic weakens veil as we were shown in asunder where it went quickly.

 

As i said spirits can enter trees ,animals and non-mages but only if demon/spirit is already in "real" world.  

[MisterJB]

I think the better distinction is mage and non-mage or mage and mundane. Mage and "normals" has a terrible implication behind it.

And yet, "non-mage" or "mundane" also have terrible implications. Why should the people of Thedas be defined by mages and in comparison to mages.

If I must choose between the three, I prefer "normal".

 

Mages and non-mages live in the same societies so the argument that non-mages want to "run their own societies" - societies are not exclusive to them and never have been.

Why not? Most societies in Thedas were created as a result of and a response to Tevinter's policies of opression to those not magically inclined. They sought to reduce the control and influence magic would have over their lives and, to this purpose, they built societies capable of resisting Tevinter and its mage lords.

Therefore, why shouldn't they be free to exclude mages from most of society if they wish?

 

And no one wants to be lorded over -

We agree on that, at least.

 

more even representation in institutions of power and influence is the most correct course and not cutting one group out of all real decision making.

A dangerous suggestion when one of the groups that wishes for representation is capable of mind controlling the others.

Magic is an advantage that will be used by mages to promote their self interests against those of normals until they, inevitably, hold the reins of power and infrastructure.

It is better if mages remain isolated within their own societies where they can rule over their own people only.

 

There is no indication that Rivain is oppressed by its seers. They only exist in the most rural and traditional parts of the country, and they work with non-mage matriarchal leadership and subordinates. And the capital is run by an Andrastian nobility, so no I wouldn't say that Rivain is oppressed by mages or at all close to it.

We don't know much about Rivain so, it's hard to say what happens there and what doesn't.

We do know that Seers rule in the more traditional areas of the country while the Chantry and Qun fight over the minds of the rest. We also know that the rules on magic are more relazed there with most female mages being creatures like Wynne but also Anders.

This, of course, showcases how magic influence has endangered the people; the number of deaths that this normally results in is impossible to say until we have more information.

Regardless, the simple fact mages rule in the more non-Andrastean areas of the country serves as a warning to other Andrastean lands. As you said, no one wants to be lorded over.

 

I don't think circumstance can be disregarded when discussing abominations. After training, it doesn't seem that most mages, even living under the many stresses and displeasures of the circle, "fall prey" to demons. They take up with them of their own accord, and that we've seen the most abominations in circles, provoked by or related to circle conditions, demonstrates that the current circle is no solution to abominations.

It'd be nearly impossible to prove that Circle mages who turned into Abominations were due to Circle conditions. After all, I can just as easily claim that it was due to their inherent weakness, that they would have become Abominations anyway and thus all the Circle was weed them out in a place where they didn't harm other people.

 

Still, what is undeniable is that we have seen Circle mages turn into Abominations. However, while this indicates that the Circle doesn't have a 100% sucess rate, who's to say that there wouldn't be more Abominations without it?

Templars are not the sole source of suffering in Thedas. Who can assure Thedosians that mages won't be driven to blood magic or demons by hunger or thievery or simple greed?

For instance, Thrask's daugther. What would have happened hadn't Hawke been there? And what would have happened had Uldred not been in the Circle when he became an Abomination?

 

Perhaps you are right and I am wrong and there are mages who wouldn't have become Abominations were it not for the Circle. However, one thing is for sure, if mages become Abominations in the Circles or around Templars, the civillian casualties will be greatly diminished.

And if blood mages bother to hide their activities it's because they know the Templars would come for them.

[LobselVith8]

Still rest have little to say about that and their decision and only mages instead nobles can candidate reminds me little orzammar situation with king.

 

Felicia Day said she was told by the developers that there were Keepers who weren't mages.

 

I can as far judge that by frequency of that caused by mages and that caused by non-mages as far we saw at least few cases where mages did it and only 1 where non-mages did it.Using magic weakens veil as we were shown in asunder where it went quickly.

 

The veil is weakened as a result of a substantial amount of death in one concentrated area; it doesn't require mage intervention at all. We're also not privy to how many areas are similar to the Brecillian Forest in the whole of Thedas.

 

As i said spirits can enter trees ,animals and non-mages but only if demon/spirit is already in "real" world.  

 

Which is possible where the veil is thin.

[Vilegrim]

Why even ask if entire 2 game didn't managed to convince you what is answer that what mages do in dai should be enough to tell that no they don't deserve their freedom because even now they cause enough trouble and destruction.

 

 

less than the Chantry manages by far...

[AshenEndymion]

less than the Chantry manages by far...

 

The slaves in Tevinter would disagree.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Felicia Day said she was told by the developers that there were Keepers who weren't mages.

 

 

The veil is weakened as a result of a substantial amount of death in one concentrated area; it doesn't require mage intervention at all. We're also not privy to how many areas are similar to the Brecillian Forest in the whole of Thedas.

 

 

Which is possible where the veil is thin.

 

1.If that is in case it was either in crisis situations where keeper and first died and they couldn't be replaced or it is in case with only some clans.

 

2.Yep i know that but as i said situation in Brecillian Forest was situation that mages caused and it rather takes tremendous amound of death and suffering otherwise places like denerim or val royeaux would have a lot problems with veil not mention Thedas.It seems magic is much faster way to torn veil as we see with avernus it didn't took very long.

 

 

less than the Chantry manages by far...

LoL not at all even simple blight tops everything that chantry did since their existence and that is from guy that isn't big chantry fan.

   

[LobselVith8]

The slaves in Tevinter would disagree.

 

The mage and non-mage slaves of the Imperium could certainly voice their displeasure at the Imperium and the Imperial Chantry, but we are all aware that horrific acts have ensued because of the Andrastian Chantry and the Chantry controlled Circles. In fact, the historical Aldenon the Wise (who helped forge modern a united Ferelden from warring teyrnirs with Calenhad) opposed the Circles when he exclaimed, “A civilization cannot be civil if it condones the slavery of another. And that is what this Circle is! But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to live, love, and die as they choose. The Circles will break - if it be one year, a decade, a century, or beyond. Tyrants always fall, and the downtrodden always strive for freedom!”

[lil yonce]

And yet, "non-mage" or "mundane" also have terrible implications. Why should the people of Thedas be defined by mages and in comparison to mages.

 

If I must choose between the three, I prefer "normal".

There is no bad implication behind mage and non-mage. Its akin to something like resident and non-resident. Its a simple distinction of identity in context. Mages and "normals" implies that mages that don't belong in the world, that they're a strange aberration to be fixed or ignored. Its dehumanizing.

 

Why not? Most societies in Thedas were created as a result of and a response to Tevinter's policies of opression to those not magically inclined. They sought to reduce the control and influence magic would have over their lives and, to this purpose, they built societies capable of resisting Tevinter and its mage lords.

Therefore, why shouldn't they be free to exclude mages from most of society if they wish?

I don't know of any proof in the lore that supports Tevinter as the only human society in Thedas before some kind of non-mage break off. WoT details eleven human tribes with their own cultures, language, and beliefs in Thedas before Tevinter as an empire even came into existence, and there were likely many more than that around. All of human society was not a response to Tevinter.

 

A dangerous suggestion when one of the groups that wishes for representation is capable of mind controlling the others.

Magic is an advantage that will be used by mages to promote their self interests against those of normals until they, inevitably, hold the reins of power and infrastructure.

It is better if mages remain isolated within their own societies where they can rule over their own people only.

So much paranoia. We haven't seen or heard of one case of mind control yet, and you can't cut one group out of decision making - certainly not when it mostly or solely affects them. Magic is a commodity and using it as leverage to support itself and its interests is exactly what the Circle should do. Mages aren't going to control all of society. Magic is not a solution to all of society's problems and southern Thedas doesn't have a culture supportive of unrestricted magic use. Mages will never be so thoroughly ingratiated in the ruling class as to hijack it and any magic used or promoted by the circle will be under heavy regulation.

 

We don't know much about Rivain so, it's hard to say what happens there and what doesn't.

We do know that Seers rule in the more traditional areas of the country while the Chantry and Qun fight over the minds of the rest. We also know that the rules on magic are more relazed there with most female mages being creatures like Wynne but also Anders.

This, of course, showcases how magic influence has endangered the people; the number of deaths that this normally results in is impossible to say until we have more information.

We do know that seers work with non-mage leaders and subordinates. WoT calls seers the most senior authorities of traditional Rivaini culture, it doesn't say that non-mages have no authority or voice in this society. And the traditional societies very much appear to like their culture and want to keep it in tact despite attempts by the Chantry to convert them.

 

It'd be nearly impossible to prove that Circle mages who turned into Abominations were due to Circle conditions. After all, I can just as easily claim that it was due to their inherent weakness, that they would have become Abominations anyway and thus all the Circle was weed them out in a place where they didn't harm other people.

The circle in Ferelden had hordes of abominations after Uldred's plan - his plan being a direct response to the injustices of the Circle. Failed Harrowings, which seem rather regular, ensure abominations in the circle. You can't discuss abominations without discussing why most of them occur. The majority of them are related to circle operation.

 

Still, what is undeniable is that we have seen Circle mages turn into Abominations. However, while this indicates that the Circle doesn't have a 100% sucess rate, who's to say that there wouldn't be more Abominations without it?

Templars are not the sole source of suffering in Thedas. Who can assure Thedosians that mages won't be driven to blood magic or demons by hunger or thievery or simple greed?

For instance, Thrask's daugther. What would have happened hadn't Hawke been there? And what would have happened had Uldred not been in the Circle when he became an Abomination?

The point is, trained mages on the whole, even living in stressful and rather dehumanizing conditions, don't go abomination out of the blue. They don't go abomination because life is hard. These mages turn abomination in extreme circumstances. There hasn't been anything to really demonstrate that trained mages can't live freer lives.

 

EDIT: Punctuation.

Modifié par lil yonce, 04 août 2014 - 10:41 .

[TEWR]

Wowsers! There is a whole bunch of people here with gameplay-story segregation problems..

 

Hopefully the segregation of the two will be addressed in Inquisition. I'll be pretty pissed off if we still have drunken Abominations, to say nothing of the other things that fall under that category.

[MisterJB]

The slaves in Tevinter would disagree.

Fenris disagrees a lot.

He describes Kirkwall as a free place, he prays at the Chantry, he informs the guard on slaver holdouts, etc. And unless Hawke convinces him otherwise, he'll fight to defend Kirkwall twice.

[MisterJB]

And to make sure no one causes trouble, station Templars throughout towns.

They are already stationed throughhout towns.

Lothering, Denerim, Kirkwall, Amaranthine, Val-Royeaux. They all had Chantries with Templars stationed on them.

It's not enough because there's no such thing as telephones that allow them to be informed rapidly of a magic related problem or cars that permit them to arrive before too many people die.

Hence the Circles. Place the mages away from people they can hurt and surround them with Templars ready to respond to anything.

[Xilizhra]

And yet, "non-mage" or "mundane" also have terrible implications. Why should the people of Thedas be defined by mages and in comparison to mages.

If I must choose between the three, I prefer "normal".

They're not, unless we're specifically talking about magic.

 

 

Fenris disagrees a lot.

He describes Kirkwall as a free place, he prays at the Chantry, he informs the guard on slaver holdouts, etc. And unless Hawke convinces him otherwise, he'll fight to defend Kirkwall twice.

Slaver holdouts? To what do you refer?

Also, lulz at "defend Kirkwall."

[TEWR]

It's not enough because there's no such thing as telephones that allow them to be informed rapidly of a magic related problem

 

All the more reason to keep researching and eventually begin mass producing Eluvians and using those sending stones the Circle Mages keep.

 

 

 

They're not, unless we're specifically talking about magic.

 

 

Slaver holdouts? To what do you refer?

 

 

Banter with Aveline.

 

Also his personal quest counts as well.

[Samahl]

And yet, "non-mage" or "mundane" also have terrible implications. Why should the people of Thedas be defined by mages and in comparison to mages.

If I must choose between the three, I prefer "normal".

 

You remind me of straight/cis people who reject those labels because they're just "normal", unlike those abnormal LGBTQ+ people.

 

I do think there should be a new term for "non-mages", though I'm not sure what would work best.

[Xilizhra]

You remind me of straight/cis people who reject those labels because they're just "normal", unlike those abnormal LGBTQ+ people.

 

I do think there should be a new term for "non-mages", though I'm not sure what would work best.

Funny you should say that first one.

 

Also, blunts? Sleepers? Veiled?

[MisterJB]

You remind me of straight/cis people who reject those labels because they're just "normal", unlike those abnormal LGBTQ+ people.

Others than mages not being real?

Ok, so if we just started calling homossexual people "non-heteros" they wouldn't be offended?

They would and we shouldn't do it. In the context of Thedas, non-mage can be interpreted in the same manner.

 

Also, if you want to get really technical, "normal" comes from norm which means "of the average". If the average person in the world is straight, then that is the norm for purely mathematical reasons.

Others would be out of the norm rather than being "abnormal" which does not, necessarely, have negative connotation. After all, one can say "she scored above the norm" which is a positive thing.

[Xilizhra]

Others than mages not being real?

Ok, so if we just started calling homossexual people "non-heteros" they wouldn't be offended?

It'd be way too non-specific, because that category encompasses a lot more than homosexual people. Ironically, "normal" is also that.

 

 

Also, if you want to get really technical, "normal" comes from norm which means "of the average". If the average person in the world is straight, then that is the norm for purely mathematical reasons.

Others would be out of the norm rather than being "abnormal" which does not, necessarely, have negative connotation. After all, one can say "she scored above the norm" which is a positive thing.

All right, then, how about "commoners?"

[Samahl]

Others than mages not being real?

 

There are plenty of oppression analogues in world in the DA universe, for good reason. Many marginalized people will identify and sympathize with their struggles.

 

Ok, so if we just started calling homossexual people "non-heteros" they wouldn't be offended?

 

No, it'd be the other way around - it'd be like calling straight people non-LGBQ+.

 

Also, if you want to get really technical, "normal" comes from norm which means "of the average". If the average person in the world is straight, then that is the norm for purely mathematical reasons.

Others would be out of the norm rather than being "abnormal" which does not, necessarely, have negative connotation. After all, one can say "she scored above the norm" which is a positive thing.

 

The words "normal" and "abnormal" have meaningful connotations that cannot be divorced from their usage.

[Swoopdogg]

"Deserve" is a really weird word to use here. Everyone inherently deserves freedom. It's when you become harmful to those around you that your freedom can be taken away. So, mages inherently deserve freedom, but their magic makes them a danger. So do we give all of them the benefit of the doubt, or do we treat all of them like walking atom bombs?

 

And honestly, I really don't know the answer to that question. I would like a middle ground, but I'm not sure what that would be.

[lil yonce]

Also, if you want to get really technical, "normal" comes from norm which means "of the average". If the average person in the world is straight, then that is the norm for purely mathematical reasons.

Others would be out of the norm rather than being "abnormal" which does not, necessarely, have negative connotation. After all, one can say "she scored above the norm" which is a positive thing.

Mundane works fine for your purposes then as it can mean common and its a description used in the lore. Normal doesn't work any better than mundane and its a loaded term, you've got to know that.

[Xandurpein]

Commoners is well established as opposite of nobility. You can't redefine it into those who don't know magic. Besides, there's really no need for a word outside this discussion. Or do we need a word for non-carpenters to separate from carpenters, without offending anyone.

Others would be out of the norm rather than being "abnormal" which does not, necessarely, have negative connotation. After all, one can say "she scored above the norm" which is a positive thing.

Why do I suddenly see a woman who successfully picks up another woman before me...

[Samahl]

Mundane works fine for your purposes then as it can mean common and its a description used in the lore. Normal doesn't work any better than mundane and its a loaded term, you've got to know that.

 

Are they really called "mundanes" in lore? If so, I suppose that term works.

[lil yonce]

Are they really called "mundanes" in lore? If so, I suppose that term works.

It was used in WoT IIRC.

 

EDIT: It was used in WoT to describe the Tevinter underclasses. "Mundane Classes" was a subheading for the section, and there is this quote that follows, "The Soporati are non-mage or "mundane" Tevinter citizens.

 

Non-mage is the more often used term to describe people without magic in other sections of the book, however.