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Do the mages deserve freedom?


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#351
MisterJB

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The point is, trained mages on the whole, even living in stressful and rather dehumanizing conditions, don't go abomination out of the blue. They don't go abomination because life is hard. These mages turn abomination in extreme circumstances. There hasn't been anything to really demonstrate that trained mages can't live freer lives.

Mages can harm people in many ways beyond demonic possession. The Tevinter mages demonstrate that trained mages can't live freer lives.

However, there are other examples. Quentin who turned to blood magic for no reason other than the natural death of his wife.

And then there is the Baroness, both a blood mage and Abomination.

And what about mages like Huon who earned "freedom" and imediatelly used it to harm others?
Or Thrask's daugther who meant no harm to anyone and yet, she was threatened by outlaws and becamwe an Abomination.

 

There are many threats on Thedas that can push mages to the arms of demons. There are many temptations that can lead to them abusing their power.

Ultimately, mages are simply far too dangerous to be allowed much more freedom beyond what they already have.

 

That is not to say the Circle can't be improved but let's stop short of allowing them to leave it permanently if they wish.

 

 

There is no bad implication behind mage and non-mage. Its akin to something like resident and non-resident. Its a simple distinction of identity in context. Mages and "normals" implies that mages that don't belong in the world, that they're a strange aberration to be fixed or ignored. Its dehumanizing.

Of course there is. It implies normal people have no identity beyond their lack of magic.

Normal, like I said before, comes from norm. Since those bereft of magic are actually the majority they are, by definition, normal.

Mundane, on the other hands, carries the connotations of "worthless". Not to mention we're still defining normal people in comparison to mages.

 

 

I don't know of any proof in the lore that supports Tevinter as the only human society in Thedas before some kind of non-mage break off. WoT details eleven distinct human tribes with their own cultures, language, and beliefs in Thedas before Tevinter as an empire even came into existence, and there were likely many more than that around. All of human society was not a response to Tevinter.

Tribes, yes. But the Anderfels, Free Marches, Nevarra, Orlais and Rivain were all formed through violent separation from the Imperium.

 

 

So much paranoia. We haven't seen or heard of one case of mind control yet, and you can't cut one group out of decision making - certainly not when it mostly or solely affects them. Magic is a commodity and using it as leverage, to support itself and its interests, is exactly what the Circle should do. They aren't going to control all of society. Magic is not a solution to all of society's problems and southern Thedas doesn't have a culture supportive of unrestricted magic use. Mages will never be so thoroughly ingratiated in the ruling class as to hijack it and any magic used or promoted by the circle will be under heavy regulation.

So much naivety. All the mages have to do to control all of society is to use magic towards making money. They already produce glowing stones for Val-Royeaux thus, we see the beginnings of electricity except it can only be produced by mages. Do you see us today holding a revolution against electricity?

If allowed to flourish, magic would eventually dominate the entire making the population entirely dependant on mages. After that, it's a matter of sending the right money into the right pockets to approve the right laws.

And that is merely one of the possibilities. Mage children born to nobles being allowed to inherit their father's authority is another. And then of course, there is always blood magic to control the King.

 

Give mages freedom, and they'll be in control within a century. Which is why they should have no power to make decisions beyond what happens within the Circle.
 

 

We do know that seers work with non-mage leaders and subordinates. WoT calls seers the most senior authorities of traditional Rivaini culture, it doesn't say that non-mages have no authority or voice in this society. And the traditional societies very much appear to like their culture and want to keep it in tact despite attempts by the Chantry to convert them.

That doesn't really adress my point of how mage leadership affected cultural tendencies towards making society less safe for normals.

They may have some authority but it's not as much as the Seers. Certainly not enough to stop them from allowing themselves to be possessed.

 

The circle in Ferelden had hordes of abominations after Uldred's plan - his plan being a direct response to the injustices of the Circle. Failed Harrowings, which seem rather regular, ensure abominations in the circle. You can't discuss abominations without discussing why most of them occur. The majority of them are related to circle operation.

No, his plan was a direct response of him being power greedy; as Wynne says, Uldred was only ever interested in his advancement.

See, you can't prove Abominations ocurrs because of Circle operation. I can always counterargue that it was the personality of the mage in question that lead them down that path and that the Circle is what prevented them from harming others.

 

The only point you have is the Abomination created through the Harrowing but those are always killed before they harm anyone.



#352
Xilizhra

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Mages can harm people in many ways beyond demonic possession. The Tevinter mages demonstrate that trained mages can't live freer lives.

However, there are other examples. Quentin who turned to blood magic for no reason other than the natural death of his wife.

And then there is the Baroness, both a blood mage and Abomination.

And what about mages like Huon who earned "freedom" and imediatelly used it to harm others?
Or Thrask's daugther who meant no harm to anyone and yet, she was threatened by outlaws and becamwe an Abomination.

Quentin was actually a necromancer/blood mage before his wife died; he only snapped and started killing after that. Olivia only did pose a threat through demonic possession, and that in the already Veil-damaged environment of Kirkwall. The Baroness came from the Chantry's Orlais, so there was presumably quite the slip-up there. As for Huon, he went insane while he was in the Circle.

 

 

Of course there is. It implies normal people have no identity beyond their lack of magic.

Normal, like I said before, comes from norm. Since those bereft of magic are actually the majority they are, by definition, normal.

Mundane, on the other hands, carries the connotations of "worthless". Not to mention we're still defining normal people in comparison to mages.

But they don't, or at least have no common identity. Also, "mundane" is the canon term, IIRC (and "normal" still defines nonmages in comparison to mages, in addition to being outright inaccurate, as we have plenty of odd cases like templars and Grey Wardens who use magic or are magical without being mages).

 

 

So much naivety. All the mages have to do to control all of society is to use magic towards making money. They already produce glowing stones for Val-Royeaux thus, we see the beginnings of electricity except it can only be produced by mages. Do you see us today holding a revolution against electricity?

If allowed to flourish, magic would eventually dominate the entire making the population entirely dependant on mages. After that, it's a matter of sending the right money into the right pockets to approve the right laws.

And that is merely one of the possibilities. Mage children born to nobles being allowed to inherit their father's authority is another. And then of course, there is always blood magic to control the King.

 

Give mages freedom, and they'll be in control within a century. Which is why they should have no power to make decisions beyond what happens within the Circle.

So, really, what you're doing here is arguing for magocracy, is that right? Because apparently mages are so useful that, if freed, society would embrace all of their innovations that would lead to society becoming a better place?


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#353
AshenEndymion

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So, really, what you're doing here is arguing for magocracy, is that right? Because apparently mages are so useful that, if freed, society would embrace all of their innovations that would lead to society becoming a better place?

 

He didn't say the world would be a better place.   Just that everyone would be dependant on mages.

 

If mages are allowed to be free from restrictions, then the societies in which they exist in will eventually turn into magocracies... That's the case for every nation in Thedas that doesn't strictly control their mages.

 

What I don't understand is why some people think that it's a good thing for the overlords to be mages instead of normal people...  I mean, if you're a mage, sure, it's awesome. But if you're not a mage, there's no reason to see that as a good thing unless you've been brainwashed into thinking it like the Dalish have been.


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#354
Xilizhra

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He didn't say the world would be a better place.   Just that everyone would be dependant on mages.

 

If mages are allowed to be free from restrictions, then the societies in which they exist in will eventually turn into magocracies... That's the case for every nation in Thedas that doesn't strictly control their mages.

 

What I don't understand is why some people think that it's a good thing for the overlords to be mages instead of normal people...  I mean, if you're a mage, sure, it's awesome. But if you're not a mage, there's no reason to see that as a good thing unless you've been brainwashed into thinking it like the Dalish have been.

It's not worse than any other government run by blood-determined nobility.



#355
AshenEndymion

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It's not worse than any other government run by blood-determined nobility.

 

In blood-determined nobility, if I murder enough people I can get to be a part of that blood-determined nobility.  I can't do that if it's a mage-determined nobility.  Not unless I'm a mage too.

 

Sure the mages are left out in blood-determined nobility, but again, I'm not a mage.

 

Because the majority of the people of Thedas are normal, there is no reason for them to support a government ruled by mages over one ruled by other normal people.  Not unless the mages are forcing them to.



#356
Hellion Rex

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The Baroness came from the Chantry's Orlais, so there was presumably quite the slip-up there.

Good point. I think the Baroness was a case like Lienne de Montsimmard in that she hid her powers from the Chantry as to avoid being given to a Circle.



#357
Xilizhra

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In blood-determined nobility, if I murder enough people I can get to be a part of that blood-determined nobility.  I can't do that if it's a mage-determined nobility.  Not unless I'm a mage too.

 

Sure the mages are left out in blood-determined nobility, but again, I'm not a mage.

 

Because the majority of the people of Thedas are normal, there is no reason for them to support a government ruled by mages over one ruled by other normal people.  Not unless the mages are forcing them to.

And yet apparently every reason for them to constantly give more power to the mages if JB's argument is true?



#358
LobselVith8

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He didn't say the world would be a better place.   Just that everyone would be dependant on mages.

 

If mages are allowed to be free from restrictions, then the societies in which they exist in will eventually turn into magocracies... That's the case for every nation in Thedas that doesn't strictly control their mages.

 

There are seers who aren't under control of the templars, and the kingdom of Rivain isn't a magocracy.

 

What I don't understand is why some people think that it's a good thing for the overlords to be mages instead of normal people...  I mean, if you're a mage, sure, it's awesome. But if you're not a mage, there's no reason to see that as a good thing unless you've been brainwashed into thinking it like the Dalish have been.

 

I don't think that the Dalish are brainwashed simply because they don't vilify mages or consider magic a curse; I certainly find the society of mages and non-mages living side by side much better than the hostile Andrastian environment where mages can be killed in cold blood simply for having magical abilities.


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#359
MisterJB

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There are seers who aren't under control of the templars, and the kingdom of Rivain isn't a magocracy.

Their leaders are mages. Clearly, it's a magocracy.



#360
AshenEndymion

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There are seers who aren't under control of the templars, and the kingdom of Rivain isn't a magocracy.

 

 

I don't think that the Dalish are brainwashed simply because they don't vilify mages or consider magic a curse; I certainly find the society of mages and non-mages living side by side much better than the hostile Andrastian environment where mages can be killed in cold blood simply for having magical abilities.

 

Firstly, Rivain is ruled by the prominent women of Rivain, the most important are those with magic called seers.  That's the definition of a magocracy....

 

And second, the Dalish aren't living side by side with magic.  The keepers(and firsts) are in charge, and everyone else is subservient.  Sure, one of the non-magical Dalish can leave their clan if they are disillusioned with their Keeper.  But then they have no clan, and may as well not be Dalish anymore at that point.



#361
Hellion Rex

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Their leaders are mages. Clearly, it's a magocracy.

Not really, as according to the Wiki, they have a monarchy.


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#362
Hellion Rex

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Firstly, Rivain is ruled by the prominent women of Rivain, the most important are those with magic called seers.  That's the definition of a magocracy....

 

And second, the Dalish aren't living side by side with magic.  The keepers(and firsts) are in charge, and everyone else is subservient.  Sure, one of the non-magical Dalish can leave their clan if they are disillusioned with their Keeper.  But then they have no clan, and may as well not be Dalish anymore at that point.

Ummm, you do realize the Dalish clans also have a council of Elders to which the Keepers adhere as well, right?


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#363
LobselVith8

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In blood-determined nobility, if I murder enough people I can get to be a part of that blood-determined nobility.  I can't do that if it's a mage-determined nobility.  Not unless I'm a mage too.

 

That's more than a little dishonest. There are a plethora of people who, no matter what, can never become part of the nobility, and I'm speaking about humans here. An elf or a dwarf can never be part of the nobility in Andrastian society (with the sole exception of the Warden, and that requires a royal boon, although we have no idea if the developers didn't simply handwave that, too).

 

Because the majority of the people of Thedas are normal, there is no reason for them to support a government ruled by mages over one ruled by other normal people.  Not unless the mages are forcing them to.

 

I don't understand why mages should be excluded if the person is capable.

 

Firstly, Rivain is ruled by the prominent women of Rivain, the most important are those with magic called seers.  That's the definition of a magocracy....

 

The rulers are Andrastian nobility, not the traditionalists.

 

And second, the Dalish aren't living side by side with magic.  The keepers(and firsts) are in charge, and everyone else is subservient.  Sure, one of the non-magical Dalish can leave their clan if they are disillusioned with their Keeper.  But then they have no clan, and may as well not be Dalish anymore at that point.

 

The Keeper and the hahren have positions of authority within the clan; the Dalish Warden's parents were technically forbidden from being together because the hahren forbid the Keeper from officially being together, so the two had to meet in secret. There is no reason to vilify societies simply because they don't brutally oppress their mages.


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#364
MisterJB

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Not really, as according to the Wiki, they have a monarchy.

So does Antiva. it's still the merchants who really rule the place.

Still, my post was perhaps more simplistic that it should have been.

Rivain is a fractured nation whose people's minds are contested by the Old Ways, Chantry and the Qun. Seers rule the more traditional communities; the areas dominated by the Chantry or the Qun have their own methods of controlling mages altough their effectiveness is questionable given how the entire female population of the Darsmuid Circle was composed of possessed mages.

So, it's a magocracy...in parts. The monarchy itself doesn't have much saying beyond the more Andrastean areas.



#365
LobselVith8

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Not really, as according to the Wiki, they have a monarchy.

 

It's from World of Thedas; Andrastian nobility rules the kingdom of Rivain.



#366
Aaleel

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Rivian is a good example of why the circle in its present state is a joke.

 

Mages in Rivian were allowed to come and go freely from the circle.  But they still answered the call and served with Templars when they were needed.  No demons running around the city freely, no abomintations, no oppression of 'normal' people, no mass destruction.  Just mages and non mages co-exsisting.  Which is why I said the circle would function better as a school and not a prison.

 

But what did the chantry do, attacked the circle mages anyway and in doing so created enemies that were previously not there.  The entire system as I said before is counter productive.


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#367
MisterJB

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The Keeper and the hahren have positions of authority within the clan; the Dalish Warden's parents were technically forbidden from being together because the hahren forbid the Keeper from officially being together, so the two had to meet in secret. There is no reason to vilify societies simply because they don't brutally oppress their mages.

No, no they were not.

The elders of HER clan; and SHE was not a mage; forbid HER from marrying. Just because the Keeper has absolute authority within his/her clan does not mean s/he can order around elves from other clan.

If Tevinter Magisters don't have the authority to command Arls of Ferelden, does that mean Tevinter is not a magocracy? Of course not!



#368
Hellion Rex

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Rivian is a good example of why the circle in its present state is a joke.

 

Mages in Rivian were allowed to come and go freely from the circle.  But they still answered the call and served with Templars when they were needed.  No demons running around the city freely, no abomintations, no oppression of 'normal' people, no mass destruction.  Just mages and non mages co-exsisting.  Which is why I said the circle would function better as a school and not a prison.

To be fair though, while I do agree with this sentiment, just because we didn't hear about it doesn't mean Dairsmuid didn't have issues at times. We lack a lot of info about these sorts of incidents in all of the major Circles.



#369
LobselVith8

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No, no they were not.

The elders of HER clan; and SHE was not a mage; forbid HER from marrying. Just because the Keeper has absolute authority within his/her clan does not mean s/he can order around elves from other clan.

If Tevinter Magisters don't have the authority to command Arls of Ferelden, does that mean Tevinter is not a magocracy? Of course not!

 

Your example makes no sense; it's akin to pointing out that the Qunari have no legal authority in Tevinter, while I'm addressing the Dalish community. The point is the hahren forbid the Keeper from pursuing a relationship, and the elven mage didn't have absolute authority to override this.



#370
MisterJB

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Rivian is a good example of why the circle in its present state is a joke.

 

Mages in Rivian were allowed to come and go freely from the circle.  But they still answered the call and served with Templars when they were needed.  No demons running around the city freely, no abomintations, no oppression of 'normal' people, no mass destruction.  Just mages and non mages co-exsisting.  Which is why I said the circle would function better as a school and not a prison.

 

But what did the chantry do, attacked the circle mages anyway and in doing so created enemies that were previously not there.  The entire system as I said before is counter productive.

So, the First Enchanter doesn't mention problems and that means we should just accept that and assume none exist?

Because she is not biased? Because she doesn't have a different culture that attributes importance to different things?

 

We know for a fact Seers allow themselves to be possessed and then rule over human communities. That's two major Chantry laws broken. If she doesn't recognize this as a problem, then why should we accept anything else she says?



#371
Aaleel

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To be fair though, while I do agree with this sentiment, just because we didn't hear about it doesn't mean Dairsmuid didn't have issues at times. We lack a lot of info about these sorts of incidents in all of the major Circles.

 

I'm sure it did have problems, but they're going to be bad people/criminals mages and non mages in every society.  But it doesn't mean that everyone should be locked up.  The main justification I've seen ITT is mages are ticking time bombs that could destroy everything.  Which obviously didn't happen in Rivian. 



#372
Samahl

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We know for a fact Seers allow themselves to be possessed and then rule over human communities. That's two major Chantry laws broken. If she doesn't recognize this as a problem, then why should we accept anything else she says?

 

Why do we care about Chantry laws?


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#373
Hellion Rex

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So, the First Enchanter doesn't mention problems and that means we should just accept that and assume none exist?

Because she is not biased? Because she doesn't have a different culture that attributes importance to different things?

 

We know for a fact Seers allow themselves to be possessed and then rule over human communities. That's two major Chantry laws broken. If she doesn't recognize this as a problem, then why should we accept anything else she says?

I'm still trying to figure out how it took so damn long for the Chantry to figure out what was going on considering this was in the capital of Rivain and right under thei noses.



#374
MisterJB

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Your example makes no sense; it's akin to pointing out that the Qunari have no legal authority in Tevinter, while I'm addressing the Dalish community. The point is the hahren forbid the Keeper from pursuing a relationship, and the elven mage didn't have absolute authority to override this.

No, the hahren did no such thing.

There is no "Dalish community". There are different clans that rule themselves and the Keeper of one has no authority over the elves of another clan exactly like there are different human nations that rule themselves and the king of one has no authority over the citizens of another.

The hahren of the mother's clan forbied HER and only HER from marrying. They did not forbid any Keeper because they were from a different clan to begin with.

 

So, again, just because the Keeper does not have absolute authority over the elves of a different clan, that doesn't mean he or she doesn't have absolutely authority over the members of his or her clan.



#375
Samahl

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I'm still trying to figure out how it took so damn long for the Chantry to figure out what was going on considering this was in the capital of Rivain and right under thei noses.

 

Clearly it wasn't that big of a deal.