772 réponses à ce sujet

[Caramacchiato]

If they locked me up, I committed a crime.  I may not agree that it should be a crime, but it's still a crime.  In Andrastian nations, being a mage is a crime.  A mage may not like it, but if they don't, they can leave.

 

Why is simply existing a crime? Someone who's only sin is being born doesn't deserve to be taken away from their families, locked up for the rest of their life and murdered if they refuse.

So can mages.  Mages can make it to Tevinter as feasibly as someone in nation they don't like can make it to a different one.

 

So their options are: imprisonment, Tranquility or running off to Tevinter, in which they will either have to practice blood magic or become a slave to the Magisters, and that's if they make it without being killed by the templars.. Yay, freedom?

If Flemeth were to ask something of someone, and they didn't do it, would she punish them in some manner?  If yes, then she's ruling over people, even if Flemeth is leaving people to their own devices when she's not around(keep in mind, the only time the player gets to say 'no' to Flemeth, she turns into a dragon and tries to kill them).  Flemeth(and the other witches of the wilds) will take what she wants, from anyone, if she thinks she can take it.  Thus she's no different from a magister of Tevinter.

Maybe she has a hidden agenda, heck, if she doesn't I'll be disappointed. But the fact remains that every time we've met Flemeth she's helped us; saving the Warden, helping Hawke get to Kirkwall, even going so far as to give you her grimoire and lie to Morrigan just so you don't have to fight her when there's a very good chance she could kill you. It might be as simple as the Blight threatening her too, but that she at least helped is what matters.

There are no free mages that don't try to exert their power over others...

 

The only 'free' mages we've seen have generally been crazy or possessed. Still, we know of the Hawke/Amell family mages, the Keepers, Feynriel, Felassan, Merill, Anders and several others who I can't actually remember the names of since they were minor side characters.

[aTigerslunch]

Huh, ok....No mage that tries to exert powers over others..

 

Lets see, under Dragon Age Wiki Mage page...

 

 

"Some mages manage to escape notice of the Chantry and the Circle."  How would one escape notice if they wasn't living peacefully with non-mages? So, those that escape notice are murdering everyone?  hmmm... think that would get noticed instead.

[Daerog]

If we are going to talk about rights and what people deserve, what about security? Oh noes, freedom vs security.

 

Really though, should all nations have a large, dedicated antimagic police force to handle mages? A whole clan has to handle their keeper if things get bad, and it usually involves death. At least templars are able to apprehend mages alive. Also, clans are well armed, I'm not sure how well armed or skilled in combat the average villager is. Mages can't just be given instant freedom, it would freak people out... kind of like how this rebellion has...

 

Peasants are willing to kill mage children out of fear and having no defense against mages.

 

Maybe investing in antimagic enchantments for mass production may help...

[lil yonce]

Until there is public education that can help mundanes deal with mage neighbors, it would be wrong to place people in danger by having mages move into town... they would just lynch the mages anyway out of fear of not knowing how to live with and defend themselves from a mage.

 

[snip]

Test the contact hypothesis instead. Its the far healthier and moral solution to your points.

[aTigerslunch]

I would need to see progression not just instant freedom. Few know they cant handle it, and allowing visitations of family would be a great big deal for several mages.

 

Lil younce wrote it for me.

[Daerog]

Huh, ok....No mage that tries to exert powers over others..

 

Lets see, under Dragon Age Wiki Mage page...

 

 

"Some mages manage to escape notice of the Chantry and the Circle."  How would one escape notice if they wasn't living peacefully with non-mages? So, those that escape notice are murdering everyone?  hmmm... think that would get noticed instead.

 

They could join a mercenary outfit like Hawke, join some gang, join some group with ties to the nobility, be a part of barbarian group or clan, or just be lucky because the Chantry and Circle are not everywhere at all times.

 

They could be nice and kind hedge wizard's, sure, but even insane, evil mages can escape notice.

 

Still, give every town a group of templars and educators and maybe every town in Thedas could be Circles with mundanes living in the same town. Hmmm... that could have some problems, but normal guards or militia can't handle mage criminals that well.

[Daerog]

Test the contact hypothesis instead. Its the far healthier and moral solution to your points.

 

But mundanes and mages can't meet with "equal status" as that article suggests. Mages have unique issues that places mundanes in danger. If the mundanes know how to work/deal/help with mages and magic, usually needing some antimagic resources, then they can meet on equal grounds.

[aTigerslunch]

Right   Templars would need to be scattered as well since mages would be scattered. There are ways to disable mages without being a Templar. Just not as accessible for peasants, which is why Templars should be spread amongst the towns and villages themselves. Even mages could help police each other even out in the open as they did in the circle.

[lil yonce]

But mundanes and mages can't meet with "equal status" as that article suggests. Mages have unique issues that places mundanes in danger. If the mundanes know how to work/deal/help with mages and magic, usually needing some antimagic resources, then they can meet on equal grounds.

Trained mages don't pose a great threat to non-mages IMO. I mean, no more so than armed non-mages do to each other. Having a templar around isn't a bad idea but I don't think it would make or break the situation.

[Daerog]

Right   Templars would need to be scattered as well since mages would be scattered. There are ways to disable mages without being a Templar. Just not as accessible for peasants, which is why Templars should be spread amongst the towns and villages themselves. Even mages could help police each other even out in the open as they did in the circle.

 

Not many want to be Templars, though. Allowing mages to go where there is no templar force could just make some places like the Wild West. It would make more strain on nation's to supply their own templars, with needing lyrium on top of unique training. Unless armor and weapons given to guards have antimagic enchantments, but that is expensive. Would be hard for rural towns and remote villages with a mage being able to pop up anywhere who needs special training and guarding.

 

Maybe Circle towns would be best, but mage children won't see family from remote villages.

[Daerog]

Trained mages don't pose a great threat to non-mages IMO. I mean, no more so than armed non-mages do to each other. Having a templar around isn't a bad idea but I don't think it would make or break the situation.

 

If they are moral and just, sure, but the mundanes knowing that takes time. They can't initially meet on equal ground. Mundanes can be disarmed and be on equal footing in a town, mages can't and they can do things mundanes have no defense against, so mundanes come into any meeting with fear and mistrust unless they are comfortable with some knowledge on magic and antimagic enchantments, that way they can meet on equal footing because the uniqueness of mages is negated. Well, except for the possession part, but details, details.

[aTigerslunch]

Well, mages already do pop up at anytime to be honest.

 

A lot of Templars already, wouldn't need to add too many, and mages could assist as well. Also, a school would be necessary in some cases, could help.

[Daerog]

Well, mages already do pop up at anytime to be honest.

 

A lot of Templars already, wouldn't need to add too many, and mages could assist as well. Also, a school would be necessary in some cases, could help.

 

Not enough templars to patrol every town. One or two are in towns to report mages and deliver children to a Circle, they have to call in help in a rogue mage is in the area. Not very helpful if templars are constantly pulled to different towns leaving some unpoliced.

 

Mages can watch mages like civilians can watch civilians, but still need that police force, with officers that aren't hunted by demons for possession.

 

School is necessary, or at least registered homeschool for nobles (mage nobles, can of worms, ignoring). Also all mages need to be known for better management... so tattoos like the casteless? Not out of shame, but... "don't threaten this person's life or risk facing an abomination."

 

...I'm actually pro Circle, but why not play around with other ideas?

[aTigerslunch]

Circle would work better if the families were allowed to visit or the mages did get vacation and such, not being stuck there as prisoners. Having a chance to get out and explore a little bit or do a few things like picnics or something simple. A lot of mages would be happy if they had freedom to move about or see family. The circle didn't work effectively cause made them prisoners when they shouldn't be prisoners.

 

Treat them as living beings that have rights will make a world of a difference to them. Depends on who or what mage though too, few mages do need locked up, just as any other criminal would technically. Example:  Mage recreating his wife, he is completely sane... 

 

Live in the tower but freedom to explore? The Circle needs changes to work properly.

 

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Oh, and just fyi to those that still feel mages need to be locked up and thrown away a key.....

 

Gandalf? 

Merlin?

Dumbledore?

Miracle Max? (mage from Princess Bride)

Magus from Earthsea and its college works quite well

Willow

Dr Strange

Harry Dresden

 

I just listed names of mages not in DA to emphasize mages are all not murderous. Though many DA mages also prove to not be murderous either.

[AresKeith]

Gandalf? 

Merlin?

Dumbledore?

Miracle Max? (mage from Princess Bride)

Magus from Earthsea and its college works quite well

Willow

Dr Strange

Harry Dresden

 

I just listed names of mages not in DA to emphasize mages are all not murderous. Though many DA mages also prove to not be murderous either.

 

Not really accurate comparing them to DA mages

[aTigerslunch]

Did you read, not all DA mages, didn't name but many there are also not murderous. Take another look at wiki DA mage page, with their names listed.

[lane]

I already said so much about this subject already (mostly to try to help people see the whys and hows of anders acts ) because no one will think about the mages case in thedas if it was not brought to light  in dragon age 2 . And am not saying the mage struggle and oppression wasnt there or showed in Origin and awakening , no ,but most people am pretty sure ,didnt play the game noticing such things ...some facts ,some sentences ,some situations that were played that spoke volume of how the mage are treated in thedas . ,

So yes ,players get to learn and focus more about the mages case from DA2 since its mostly the focus of the storyline : mages and templars . 

 

Of course now, players will follow this from the leader of this mage plight, Anders . Thats why ,you cannot speak about the mages situation without doing in from Anders point of view ,because throught Anders ,you'll be teleportated throught differents states of conversations with characters, stories about live in the circle, templars ,stories about personnal experiences,  ... and here am not just talking about DA2 but ever since awakening and before.

Through him ,you can see the whole picture . thus there much much to analyse ,(that i will not do here simply because i already did it in response to all the sensless inaccuare ideas around it ,so i decided to write it in one page and once for all ,for all to read or agree or dislike )

 

so i'll just put the answer to your question here : http://forum.bioware.../#entry16567307

 

and if you or whomever is interested in this topic being mages freedom, is interested in an Anders analyse of past and progression throught DA ,and want a deep and meaniful research ,someone gathered more than you could ever found on dragon age wiki official short stories and beyond and digged  into his persona in the most utter way.

i'll say enjoy to those to do who like and/or understand Anders ,and also for those who dislike this most argued-about character ,just try and give it a try its worth a quick look. =>

http://archiveofouro...g/works/1000940

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Also i want to add those few words from a song  that i always saw suit the freedom for mages plight ,the oppression ,suffer, fear and the revolution that is now ahead.

 

Can we trust all the facts
And believe that the fancied wise are just and needed?
Do we want to rely on the views
Of the righteous ones who are succeeding?
If you look all around and you see
All the things that are not meant to be
Then you know it's time to let them go

Your fury can no longer stand
This hauteur will come to an end
Looking for leftover friends is in vain
You'll be alone again

No more refusal
Face it , slow down

It is time for renewal
And expect no miracles
Expect no miracle when you're in an endless fall
No regrets if you're leaving
You're a true deceiver
Accept the here and now
Or regret will end up

Mask of justice,

shield of menacing strength
Will not bend, only break

Can't we respect, Can we neglect
Those who are suffering in need of help?
You are the one I wouldn't like to become
Not at all in the end

Hear our calling
Carry me slowly
In the depths of your life
Fear the thunder
Free me from barren fields
And grey thunder lies
Semblance falling
Under the grand facade
The truth loves to hide 
 

monopoly of truth from epica 

 

this is for me the perfect chant for mage freedom 

[Daerog]

Anders is a good point of view of the situation. Finn is also good. Uldred as well. Same with Wynne. Can't forget Fiona.

 

However, that is only the view of mages, who are not the only ones affected by magic policies. Plenty of Templar views to consider as well.

 

All views need to be considered, and as we don't have any sane Loyalists giving their life story, it's not a great sample size for mages.

 

I barely looked at the analysis to be honest, Anders has been talked about enough.

 

Anyway, I don't see "not all mages are criminals/murderous" as an argument against the Circle, as the Circles are not around because mages are criminals or murderous. They can be, sure, but they can be dangerous in other ways. Possession, blood magic, veil manipulation, creating blizzards by just twirling their hand, so on and so forth, things that are hard to govern unless you are also a mage or templar. Also, shenanigans with metaphysics that can lead to stuff like unleashing the blight into the material world.

[AresKeith]

Did you read, not all DA mages, didn't name but many there are also not murderous. Take another look at wiki DA mage page, with their names listed.

 

Being murderous or not doesn't really mean anything if they end up getting possessed

[aTigerslunch]

Getting possessed is a different issue from what several posts back was claiming.  Was a claim that they are all murderers, or all mages are killers.

 

Not all are and not all get possessed. There are some that are free from the Circle and Chantry that are not possessed.

 

To say they can be sure, but to say they will be, no.

 

A mage circle as a college could work. Less likely of someone wanting freedom to resort to demons, though few will still do so, cant stop them all, but not all will be wiling to go to a demon. Kirkwall was showing mages willing to go to blood magic all because Meredith was tightening her grip. If she hadn't done so (which she was corrupted anyways) they wouldn't rebelled so badly.

[AresKeith]

Mages wanting freedom who resorts to demons and blood mage only proves to everyone that they are too dangerous to be left unchecked and watched

 

 

Meredith wasn't corrupted (except Act 3) heavily bias because of her past regarding mages, yes but not corrupt 

[Daerog]

Getting possessed is a different issue from what several posts back was claiming.  Was a claim that they are all murderers, or all mages are killers.

 

Not all are and not all get possessed. There are some that are free from the Circle and Chantry that are not possessed.

 

To say they can be sure, but to say they will be, no.

 

A mage circle as a college could work. Less likely of someone wanting freedom to resort to demons, though few will still do so, cant stop them all, but not all will be wiling to go to a demon. Kirkwall was showing mages willing to go to blood magic all because Meredith was tightening her grip. If she hadn't done so (which she was corrupted anyways) they wouldn't rebelled so badly.

 

Maker's breath, Kirkwall was a hell hole.

 

The First Enchanter protecting blood mages, encouraging necromancy and who knows what other experiments. Meredith was right about many things before she was corrupted. Meredith was harsh, but the law breaker was Orsino... Then things went crazier when Hawke got involved. Also, some evil templars and crazy blood mages.

 

Circles just being boarding schools would be nice, but only when mundanes have access to antimagic resources and nations start funding magic police, not just the Chantry. Also, giving every noble and gov't official a Litany of Andrala or whatever it is called.

[aTigerslunch]

Kirkwall was horrible in all directions, yes.

 

I don't mind more magic being released for protective purposes.

 

In fact, one of the games I am part of, magic is used to help contain supervillians of surpassing powers.

[BloodKaiden]

Mages wanting freedom who resorts to demons and blood mage only proves to everyone that they are too dangerous to be left unchecked and watched
 
 
Meredith wasn't corrupted (except Act 3) heavily bias because of her past regarding mages, yes but not corrupt

And yet, having no option but to turn to blood magic or demons from the level of oppression faced from the Templars and Chantry beliefs should be considered a factor in the way things went so wrong in Kirkwall. Don't blame me for doing what I have to do when you push me to have no other option.

So much as Anders was an all round whining ass, Anders was right.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And yet, having no option but to turn to blood magic or demons from the level of oppression faced from the Templars and Chantry beliefs should be considered a factor in the way things went so wrong in Kirkwall. Don't blame me for doing what I have to do when you push me to have no other option.

So much as Anders was an all round whining ass, Anders was right.

They have plenty of alternatives. Hell, Asunder showed us that the Divine was willing to listen to what the mages had to say. Then, of course, the mages were quick to spit in the face of the Divine and **** all over the hand offered, but we evidently can't expect mages to learn...