772 réponses à ce sujet

[DrBlingzle]

Do they deserve it?: For almost all of them, yes.

Should they get it?: Very different question.

 

I personally support an alternative version of the circle system with more relaxed restrictions. For instance: Circle based more around education than imprisonment, relatives allowed to visit often, frequent outside visits allowed for good behaviour, romantic unions between mages is not discouraged, mages are allowed to keep their children (unless it is a non-mage in which case it can be placed in a chantry orphanage because it would be unfair to keep a child in the circle unless it was necessary (the mage parent is allowed to frequently visit the child of course)), and Templars would be made a lot more accountable for their actions.

 

I don't support total freedom for mages for a couple of reasons, the most obvious being this would almost certainly lead to more abominations, blood mages and so on. But also because a lot of peasants fear mages and would probably be hostile towards them. What a lot of people forget (including many templars) is that the circle is not only to protect mundanes from mages but also mages from mundanes.

[Master Warder Z_]

I think mages deserve more than to be confined to the circles, but I also think the system is failing them, as other people have said. The Templars don't do enough to teach the mages how to control and understand their powers, they simply act as a sword of last resort. Preventative measures need to be taken to prepare Mages to fight against things like the threat of possession and the lure of Blood Magic, rather than just letting them fail and judging them with death for that failure.

It's a classic case of treating a symptom and not the disease itself. As long as that happens, the core issues will never be amicably resolved between the two parties.

 

Actually i'd find more fault with the idiotic Grand Enchanter then the system, who got the college of cumberland closed? It was Her, Who was preaching sedition in a time of chaos and strife, at the worst possible moment? It was Her, Who decided to not accept the Lord Seeker's VERY generous offer and instead push the world over the edge into war?

 

It was Her.

 

You want to blame anyone for the current war that is plaguing Thedas?

 

It can be pointed quite astutely all in one person's direction.

 

Pity i can't find that Osama Bin Fiona Poster that i found on Deviant Art one time, but you get the idea.

[lil yonce]

I want to see some kind of revolution, so I suppose, yes, more freedom for mages. I also want to see a revolution in Tevinter that brings down the magocracy, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

[Iakus]

There's really no easy answer.

 

Mages are in the end, just people, who didn't choose to have magic.  And many of them are decent responsible people.

 

OTOH, even decent, responsible people are subject to the temptations of demons, and even a minor slip-up can spell disaster for both the mage and anyone nearby.

[Icy Magebane]

Ideally, mages should be required to attend some form of mandatory training so that they are at minimum familiar with fade spirits and the use of their powers.  That's probably as far as I'm willing to take it.  What they choose to do with their abilities should be up to each individual... the majority has no right to imprison them indefinitely or kill them as a means of preventing whatever damage they might cause. 

 

The Templars should be replaced by a secular law enforcement branch that only owes allegiance to their nation's government.  Considering the fact that there are spells like Mana Clash and Dispel Magic, mages should be allowed to join this order if they choose to.  If they just restructure the system, and allow mages to actually help out in policing their own, I'm sure that they could handle whatever problems arise in a timely fashion.

 

There's really no need for the system to be as strict as it was before the current mage rebellion... now that the old system has fallen, I'm hoping that it can be reborn as a strictly secular institution that promotes the understanding of magic rather than control over those who possess it.  We must remember that abominations can be prevented for the most part... it is not inevitable that all mages will become possessed by demons or that they will abuse their powers as maleficarum.  Punishing them preemptively for the "common good" cannot be reasonably justified, as there are many examples of mages who live well into old age without ever bargaining with demons or losing control in any way.

 

Finally, any option that includes genocide is immediately off the table.  There's nothing more to say about that one.

[JobacNoor]

There is no simple answer to this issue.

 

Is it wrong for people to live their entire lives in what is basically imprisonment because of something they themselves never had any say in? Yes.

 

However, it is very much a factual statement that every single mage walking around is potentially a ticking time bomb that in a worst case scenario could kill thousands if not more. There's only an incredibly small fraction of them that actually want to consort with demons or even actively seek to become possessed, but the risk is there with even the most kind-hearted children who happen to be magically gifted since the mages don't have to be willing in order for a demon to possess them.

[Master Warder Z_]

Evils that arose from the fundamentally mistaken belief that killing large amounts of people is the best way to solve your problems.  As all war is.

 

Whut?

 

[Ynqve]

There is no "evil" outside human head what may be evil for you doesn't have to be evil for another person some peoples for example see loghain as justified others don't. 

 

 

Ehh do you want devs to come and lock this thread?

Because rly just because i don't share your morality im insane?

 

Yes. On both accounts. I saw you arguing for murder the other day, you don't seem to value basic human rights. So yes, I think my morality trumps yours in this case. 

[Gannayev of Dreams]

There is no "evil" outside human head what may be evil for you doesn't have to be evil for another person some peoples for example see loghain as justified others don't. 

 

The only truth to what you say is that I cannot change your sense of morality with words alone.

 

Your "solution", even if you were to take the morally repugnant nature of it out of the equation, reeks of laziness and bad logic.  In what world would you expect people to let you execute their children just for being mages?  There would be revolt not just from the already existing mages... but from their "normal" family members.  An entire totalitarian structure would have to be created to enforce such a barbaric policy that everyone would have to live under, not just mages.

 

There is no successful real world analogue of that being done.  It is untenable and unethical.

[JobacNoor]

There also isn't really a real world equivalent to this.

 

The closest thing I can think of (and this is probably a horrible analogy) is if, say 10% of the world's population had been born with a nuke inside of them. They have no control of when or if it ever explodes - in fact, the vast majority never will. However, there's the off chance that any one of them could go off at any moment, seemingly at random which would cause untold amounts of deaths.

 

They're just everyday people, dads, moms, little kids, teachers, postal workers, probably some of them are actual criminals to begin with. Do they deserve to get locked up or even killed on principle? Of course not. But you can see where keeping them under very strict surveillance is a valid argument as well, even if it's unfair.

[LostInReverie19]

I'm completely against the Circles. It's like the movie Minority Report where people were arrested for crimes they would supposedly commit but hadn't yet. It's not right to lock people up for crimes they might commit. We let convicted criminals go freely into the world after they've served their time yet in the DA universe mages are locked up for life, without ever having committed a crime other than being born. 

 

Also, the Circles breed the worst kind of abuse of power by the templars. Not all templars do of course, but there are templars like Sir Alrik who threaten their charges with Tranquility if they don't do what they want. Sir Alrik was clearly a rapist or at least a sadist, and I'm sure he was not the only templar like that. 

 

The Circles are the ultimate injustice. If a mage goes bad while living freely in the world, it should be the templar's duty to deal with it then and only then, not lock them up for crimes they may never commit in their lives. I also feel like fewer mages would become abominations if they were allowed to live their own lives free from templar supervision. They wouldn't feel as threatened, for one thing. A College of Magi could still exist, to train mages, but they should be free to come and go as they please, have children and families of their own, etc. Yes, I think you'd see a lot less mage corruption were mages treated like, you know, actual people. 

[Master Warder Z_]

There also isn't really a real world equivalent to this.

 

The closest thing I can think of (and this is probably a horrible analogy) is if, say 10% of the world's population had been born with a nuke inside of them. They have no control of when or if it ever explodes - in fact, the vast majority never will. However, there's the off chance that any one of them could go off at any moment, seemingly at random which would cause untold amounts of deaths.

 

They're just everyday people, dads, moms, little kids, teachers, postal workers, probably some of them are actual criminals to begin with. Do they deserve to get locked up or even killed on principle? Of course not. But you can see where keeping them under very strict surveillance is a valid argument as well, even if it's unfair.

 

That it self is the major issue with addressing the point, There isn't anything close to an Equivalent to it.

 

Couple that with this Era in our own history's own ideologies of Freedom, Democracy and Morality and Thedas is practically Alien with it's very Feudalistic Setting.

 

I get why people want to apply modern morality and what have you to the situation, but in truth i try to stick with a more apt in universe approach, and that is why i view the circle as the best solution short of removing magic all together, obviously killing mages cannot accomplish that because it isn't even hereditary. Magic appearing within a person is it self magic.

[General TSAR]

They do not.

 

They are nothing but walking WMDs that need to be controlled.

The Templars should be replaced by a secular law enforcement branch that only owes allegiance to their nation's government.

 

Bad idea. 

 

 

I get why people want to apply modern morality and what have you to the situation, but in truth i try to stick with a more apt in universe approach, and that is why i view the circle as the best solution short of removing magic all together, obviously killing mages cannot accomplish that because it isn't even hereditary. Magic appearing within a person is it self magic.

 

This guy gets it.

 

Trying to apply modern morality to Thedas is futile. 

 

Hence why the Qunari approach is the best solution to dealing with the Mages and protecting the innocent. 

[CrimsonN7]

Yes they do. Instead of locking them away for life due to their gift they should be trained from a young age on how best to control their power. Perhaps a boarding school like system, family/friends can visit certain times of the year and such. Once they have reached adulthood they are free to leave and live their lives. Something like this would be much more humane and would do more good than the glorified prison existence mages have in DA.

[General TSAR]

Yes they do. Instead of locking them away for life due to their gift they should be trained from a young age on how best to control their power. Perhaps a boarding school like system, family/friends can visit certain times of the year and such. Once they have reached adulthood they are free to leave and live their lives. Something like this would be much more humane and would do more good than the glorified prison existence mages have in DA.

Why? 

 

They're more useful as thralls.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yes. On both accounts. I saw you arguing for murder the other day, you don't seem to value basic human rights. So yes, I think my morality trumps yours in this case. 

Humans rights are nice and all but as i said they vanish when it is convenient.

There is no better or worse morality there is only your morality and someone else.

 

 

The only truth to what you say is that I cannot change your sense of morality with words alone.

 

Your "solution", even if you were to take the morally repugnant nature of it out of the equation, reeks of laziness and bad logic.  In what world would you expect people to let you execute their children just for being mages?  There would be revolt not just from the already existing mages... but from their "normal" family members.  An entire totalitarian structure would have to be created to enforce such a barbaric policy that everyone would have to live under, not just mages.

 

There is no successful real world analogue of that being done.  It is untenable and unethical.

In da world as i saw mages don't have good PR but i know there will be peoples that will refuse obey but then i have nice set of laws to deal with such peoples after all this is why law exist to control peoples.

 

Unethical isn't good argument for me.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Yes they do. Instead of locking them away for life due to their gift they should be trained from a young age on how best to control their power. Perhaps a boarding school like system, family/friends can visit certain times of the year and such. Once they have reached adulthood they are free to leave and live their lives. Something like this would be much more humane and would do more good than the glorified prison existence mages have in DA.

I don't think it would be a good idea to let mages go free completely no matter how strong they thought they were, only takes 1 slip up & you have an abomination wrecking havoc

[Samahl]

There also isn't really a real world equivalent to this.

 

It's fascinating, because it's simultaneously an issue of civil rights and gun rights. I'm anti-gun, personally, but I sometimes find myself using arguments reminiscent of pro-gun rhetoric in defense of mages. Of course, there are vital differences, which become clear the more immersed in the setting you get, but I find it interesting to think about all the same.

[General TSAR]

It's fascinating, because it's simultaneously an issue of civil rights and gun rights. I'm anti-gun, personally, but I sometimes find myself using arguments reminiscent of pro-gun rhetoric in defense of mages. Of course, there are vital differences, which become clear the more immersed in the setting you get, but I find it interesting to think about all the same.

Gun rights? We're talking about City Busters not AR-15s. 

[Autequi]

I don't support total freedom for mages for a couple of reasons, the most obvious being this would almost certainly lead to more abominations, blood mages and so on. But also because a lot of peasants fear mages and would probably be hostile towards them. What a lot of people forget (including many templars) is that the circle is not only to protect mundanes from mages but also mages from mundanes.

 

This.

 

Even if mages were free to live outside circles, it's not as if they'd be welcomed with open arms. In general, mundanes hate and fear them. I don't have any optimism for the consequences of freeing mages to live in the general populace.

[Gannayev of Dreams]

In da world as i saw mages don't have good PR but i know there will be peoples that will refuse obey but then i have nice set of laws to deal with such peoples after all this is why law exist to control peoples.

 

Unethical isn't good argument for me.

 

That... doesn't fully address what I said.  Yes, laws exist to control human behavior, but while you don't find the ethical argument compelling, I think it fair to assume most people would.  They aren't going to follow laws they find fundamentally unethical.  That is what will lead to revolt and the necessity of a totalitarian society that I mentioned earlier.

 

You're going to have to kill many more people than just mages.  You're going to have to kill their families and their sympathizers.  It simply will not work to achieve a safer world.

[General TSAR]

You're going to have to kill their families and their sympathizers.

Reeducated. 

 

Next. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

That... doesn't fully address what I said.  Yes, laws exist to control human behavior, but while you don't find the ethical argument compelling, I think it fair to assume most people would.  They aren't going to follow laws they find fundamentally unethical.  That is what will lead to revolt and the necessity of a totalitarian society that I mentioned earlier.

 

You're going to have to kill many more people than just mages.  You're going to have to kill their families and their sympathizers.  It simply will not work to achieve a safer world.

I could argue there were many abusive laws that weren't nice and even were abucive toward peoples in our world but i won't speak about them as mods don't want that.Most peoples in thedas dislike mages and before templars they were killing them often even now being mage or having one in family is seen as disgrace.Most won't have problem with them and as i said i have laws but behind them are peoples who enforce them to solve problem that you are talking about.

 

We don't have many such peoples and peoples who break the law are always punished.

 

Besides most peoples follow ethics that society dictates. 

[Heimdall]

I don't know...

 

I wouldn't want to cut the Chantry out of it, they're the only organization in Thedas with the influence to impose a new system throughout the Andrastrian nations and convince the common people to accept it, though only if they embrace Divine Justinia's more liberal views.

 

All mages should be mandated to attend the nearest Circle of Magi for a period of years determined by the Senior Enchanters and the First Enchanter (Ranging from 5 to 10, or more if needed) at which point they will be able to leave or stay as they please.

 

The Templars will remain, though with a revised doctrine encouraging more cooperation between the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter and putting them on equal footing.  Phylacteries will also remain, only to be used if the mage in question is implicated in criminal or deviant activity.  Blood magic will remain banned.  Mages will be able to inherit property and titles provided it is their parent's wish.

 

That's my ideal anyway.