772 réponses à ce sujet

[Icy Magebane]

It's mainly that some people confuse an opposition to the Chantry controlled Circles with an opposition to the Circles of Magi in general, which isn't necessarily the case with many people who don't support the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars having control of the Circles. People who disagree with the Circles as they are under the Chantry don't necessarily disagree that mages should be properly trained in the use of their abilities, simply that leaving the mages under the absolute authority of the Chantry and the templars is a mistake.

I'm going to have to agree with that.  The Chantry is IMO the main reason why no progress can be made regarding this issue.  The Circle is too wrapped up in politics so long as it's under the control of the Chantry.

[The Hierophant]

@LobselVith8:  What do you think would have happened to Rhys had they not rescued him?

Executed because of Adraian's scheming.

[Iakus]

I don't recall Adrian murdering any mage for having an ideological difference from her.

 

She set up Rhys to take the fall for her killing Pharamond.  He could have easily ended up dead or Tranquil.

 

Heck if it wasn't for Leliana, and the Divine, they all might have ended up dead or Tranquil, thanks to her.

[Lulupab]

Even still, the majority are Andrastian, forced or no.

 

I know but the point I was trying to make was many have little to no faith and in the event that by any chance this religion is trashed there won't be much resistance. I don't know if you played FFX or not, I always found similarities between Yevon and the Chantry.

 

That's quite true. Sebastian and Anders are both culturally and religiously Andrastian.

 

I was actually shocked when Anders last sentence before facing Meredith was "May the Maker bring us victory". After some thinking and remembering things I realized he is actually an Andrastian

[lil yonce]

Autonomy is different than Reform.

 

I support some severe reforms, but think any mage seeking autonomy is simply power hungry and should be watched the most (like Adrian). 

 

It's hilarious to me that any mage would feel beholden to the decision made at Andoral's Reach.  It even mocks itself when Adrian gains accolades that are notable Circle accolades - with no Circle.

 

As a mage, I would never have gone to begin with.  But after the decision I would have simply left.  Of course, I don't think people like Adrian would want to let me go... radicals aren't known to live by the standards they claim they're fighting for.  

But the Circle of Magi is supposed to be autonomous according to World of Thedas. It isn't because of the templars.

 

"Although the Circle is supposed to be autonomous, a heavy templar presence in all Circle towers has effectively made the organization an arm of the Chantry for ages." p.96.

 

I assume that the Circle is autonomous under the Nevarran Accord, and I would want it as the standard in negotiations if I were a mage. It would be terrible to negotiate for less than that.

[Palidane]

It's mainly that some people confuse an opposition to the Chantry controlled Circles with an opposition to the Circles of Magi in general, which isn't necessarily the case with many people who don't support the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars having control of the Circles. People who disagree with the Circles as they are under the Chantry don't necessarily disagree that mages should be properly trained in the use of their abilities, simply that leaving the mages under the absolute authority of the Chantry and the templars is a mistake.

Oh, I see. So you were talking prospective future circles, got it.

 

 

There are humans who don't follow the Andrastian faith, as Xil and Lulupab pointed out.

Yeah, but there are so few of them, I don't understand why the vast vast majority always has to be specified. I mean, when you say "I hope DAI allows for a variety perspectives, and not just as an Andrastian Human", no one is thinking you really want to play as a Chasind.

 

There's the Andrastian Chantry, and the Imperial Chantry. The people of Tevinter would be the latter.

 

 

But grouping all humans together like that without the qualifier would be racist.

The Imperial Chantry still believes Andraste was the Bride of the Maker and she came down to smite the wicked Magisters of old (totally different from Magisters nowadays. Totally). Sure, there's some variations when it comes to magic, but they are still Andrastians.

 

Racist? WTF? How on earth does that track?

[Medhia_Nox]

@lil yonce: That's interesting - and the war is going to kill any chance for those negotiations for a while.  Where was your mage when Asunder needed him/her? 

 

@Iakus:  Which actually floors me why there is so much Leliana hate by Pro-Magers... which may not be accurate, but it is certainly an impression I get. Perhaps they haven't read Asunder and don't know she was working to liberate the mages the entire book.

[LobselVith8]

@LobselVith8:  What do you think would have happened to Rhys had they not rescued him?

 

In the final scene between Adrian and Rhys, Adrian said she wanted Wynne to step in and make a choice, so it doesn't seem like Adrian thought he would die.

[Xilizhra]

The Imperial Chantry still believes Andraste was the Bride of the Maker and she came down to smite the wicked Magisters of old (totally different from Magisters nowadays. Totally). Sure, there's some variations when it comes to magic, but they are still Andrastians?

Not really. They don't see Andraste as divine, simply as a powerful mage prophet, and they don't worship her.

[LobselVith8]

I know but the point I was trying to make was many have little to no faith and in the event that by any chance this religion is trashed there won't be much resistance. I don't know if you played FFX or not, I always found similarities between Yevon and the Chantry.

 

Ah, Yevon. I see what you mean.

 

I was actually shocked when Anders last sentence before facing Meredith was "May the Maker bring us victory". After some thinking and remembering things I realized he is actually an Andrastian

 

Anders talks about how he believes in the fable of the Golden City (in Awakening and vanilla Dragon Age II; Legacy seemed to make the mistake of completely ignoring Anders' characterization), and he has arguments with Merrill because her cultural and religious views differ from what's taught by the Chantry. His only genuine disagreement is over the how they control the Circles.

[Medhia_Nox]

@LobselVith8:  Oh, then the Circle must not really be a bad place - if you can kill 5-7 mages, lie to the head of the Seekers, and NOT be killed/Tranquilized for it.  Cause when you frame someone for several murders, the sentence doesn't tend to be a stern tickling.

 

Which also suggests that Lambert would be a very merciful, understanding individual.

 

And we can add murdering Wynne's son to force her hand to the long list of Adrian's mechinations.

 

I take it back Morrigan, you're certainly not the nastiest ****** in all of Thedas.  Not by FAR. 

[Palidane]

I know but the point I was trying to make was many have little to no faith and in the event that by any chance this religion is trashed there won't be much resistance. I don't know if you played FFX or not, I always found similarities between Yevon and the Chantry.

Never have, and you've got another thing coming if you think the Chantry would disappear overnight and nobody would notice. You realize the Chantry is the single most powerful and influential organization in Thedas, right?

 

 

I was actually shocked when Anders last sentence before facing Meredith was "May the Maker bring us victory". After some thinking and remembering things I realized he is actually an Andrastian.

Well, what else would he be? That's exactly my point. Ander's sure as hell isn't Qunari, or any of those tribes, so he has to be Andrastian. It's just the default.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Palidane:  What they might be looking for is "enlightened secular". 

[Xilizhra]

Well, what else would he be? That's exactly my point. Ander's sure as hell isn't Qunari, or any of those tribes, so he has to be Andrastian. It's just the default.

Neither Morrigan nor Isabela is Andrastian either, despite not belonging to any of those.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xilizhra:  I know people would rage.. but I'd love to see Morrigan more "up in the air" about the possibility of a Maker.  I wouldn't want her to be Born-Again Andrastian or anything... just a little less:  "Young intellectual know it all self-centered hedonist."

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra:  I know people would rage.. but I'd love to see Morrigan more "up in the air" about the possibility of a Maker.  I wouldn't want her to be Born-Again Andrastian or anything... just a little less:  "Young intellectual know it all self-centered hedonist."

Well, she'll be less young. Of course, it's not like any of her criticisms of religion were wrong.

[LobselVith8]

@Xilizhra:  I know people would rage.. but I'd love to see Morrigan more "up in the air" about the possibility of a Maker.  I wouldn't want her to be Born-Again Andrastian or anything... just a little less:  "Young intellectual know it all self-centered hedonist."

 

I don't see what the point would be. It's not as though Inquisition is light on Andrastians as it is.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xilizhra: The possible existence of a being that brought the creation of the Fade and Thedas into existence... and religion... are not the same thing, and I find anyone who says they are ill equipped to actually discuss the topic (and I mean Morrigan in this instance).  I would like her to show a little growth... a little nuance in this particular area that suggests maybe she has some insight into realizing she doesn't actually know all there is.  I'm fully aware that would not be a popular stance, that does not stop it from being of interest to me however.

 

@LobselVith8:  I specifically said I did not want to her necessarily become an Andrastian believer.

[Palidane]

Not really. They don't see Andraste as divine, simply as a powerful mage prophet, and they don't worship her.

Ooh. Quick wiki search shows you are right. Darn. Sorry, could have sworn they worshipped Andraste. Tevinter isn't really my specialty.

 

Neither Morrigan nor Isabela is Andrastian either, despite not belonging to any of those.

Ok, so that's two. Got any more?

 

Well, she'll be less young. Of course, it's not like any of her criticisms of religion were wrong.

Debatable. I would say anyone who could walk into the Temple of Sacred Ashes and still come out a staunch atheist is either running low on sense or high on pride.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Palidane:  The last one is "the lyrium conveniently picked a set of ashes in a cup to imbue, despite anything else in the room, with the powers of healing instead of say, the powers of corrupting ones flesh, which just happens to fall in line with the concept of how Andraste is perceived." 

 

The lyrium ALSO created multiple spirits of figures known in Andraste's time... who evidently have been seriously watching the Thedas History Channel.

 

IF the lyrium can do all that - the dwarven "religion" is the right one.

[Palidane]

@Palidane:  The last one is "the lyrium conveniently picked a set of ashes in a cup to imbue, despite anything else in the room, with the powers of healing instead of say, the powers of corrupting ones flesh, which just happens to fall in line with the concept of how Andraste is perceived." 

Not to mention that the Deep Roads is full of Lyrium, but we didn't see any randomly blessed miracle items on our trek down there...

[The Elder King]

In the final scene between Adrian and Rhys, Adrian said she wanted Wynne to step in and make a choice, so it doesn't seem like Adrian thought he would die.

Wynne's decision to support the revolution wouldn't have meant that they'd surely be able to save Rhys though. I doubt she didn't consider the possibility of him dying because of her plan.

[Mistic]

There's the Andrastian Chantry, and the Imperial Chantry. The people of Tevinter would be the latter.

 

They are still Andrastian. In fact, the Imperial Chantry is the first form of organized Andrastian religion in Thedas and the Tevinters are very proud of it. Calling the first "Andrastian" doesn't mean any difference in that aspect, really.

 

It's like the Catholic and Orthodox churches, the real life inspiration for that schism. The first is officially called Roman Catholic Church, while the second one is called Orthodox Catholic Church. Yes, both have "Catholic" in their names. Not to talk about using the "Christian" denomination, in which case we have to include every Protestant church too.

 

Not really. They don't see Andraste as divine, simply as a powerful mage prophet, and they don't worship her.

 

That's a matter of theology. Do you really think that every Christian Church that has existed and exists today shares the same view on Christ's nature? I mean, during the first centuries there were schisms and even small civil wars among the different schools. The vast majority of churches today are Chalcedonians or at least Miaphysitists, but there are other stances too. Tevinter's theology about Andraste seems similar to Arianism, known for being the first form of Christianity the Goths knew.

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra: The possible existence of a being that brought the creation of the Fade and Thedas into existence... and religion... are not the same thing, and I find anyone who says they are ill equipped to actually discuss the topic (and I mean Morrigan in this instance).  I would like her to show a little growth... a little nuance in this particular area that suggests maybe she has some insight into realizing she doesn't actually know all there is.  I'm fully aware that would not be a popular stance, that does not stop it from being of interest to me however.

She never said there was nothing at all definitely, just that the Chantry's mythology is ridiculous.

 

 

Ok, so that's two. Got any more?

Aveline is shaky at best. The PC in Origins can be.

 

 

Debatable. I would say anyone who could walk into the Temple of Sacred Ashes and still come out a staunch atheist is either running low on sense or high on pride.

Given the enormously powerful displays of magic that have been spoken of before in the lore, plus the huge lyrium vein the temple is built on, I don't at all believe that it would have been impossible to build with magic. Which strikes me as a somewhat less extraordinary claim than all Chantry dogma being right.

[LobselVith8]

@Xilizhra: The possible existence of a being that brought the creation of the Fade and Thedas into existence... and religion... are not the same thing, and I find anyone who says they are ill equipped to actually discuss the topic (and I mean Morrigan in this instance).  I would like her to show a little growth... a little nuance in this particular area that suggests maybe she has some insight into realizing she doesn't actually know all there is.  I'm fully aware that would not be a popular stance, that does not stop it from being of interest to me however.

 

There's really nothing wrong with the idea that someone thinks that the Maker (or a higher power) isn't responsible for the Beyond or Thedas.

 

@LobselVith8:  I specifically said I did not want to her necessarily become an Andrastian believer.

 

We have a plethora of people who already believe that the Fade and the world were created by a higher power; I'm not seeing the point in having Morrigan's character diluted to basically make her no different than the rest of them.