@Palidane: The lyrium in the Deep Roads could create but one miracle.... Sandal.
@Xilizhra and LobselVith8: I said it was an opinion. I'm not sure why you're asking me to justify it. If you need, I find youthful secular hedonist know it alls to be trite and boorish. I would find Morrigan's admission to no longer being such to be a fascinating development. That you think I want to suddenly start spouting about how there's absolutely a deity is not my problem and is not at all what I said.
Ok, so that's two. Got any more?
Debatable. I would say anyone who could walk into the Temple of Sacred Ashes and still come out a staunch atheist is either running low on sense or high on pride.
Aveline seems to be agnostic our protagonist may don't belive (but i wouldn't count them).Then we have chasind ,followers of the qun ,dalish.It would be hard to say as pretty much you would need to know well person to tell in what they belive.
Hardly there is presented alternative explanation for temple and spirits there are rather suspicious.
@Palidane: The last one is "the lyrium conveniently picked a set of ashes in a cup to imbue, despite anything else in the room, with the powers of healing instead of say, the powers of corrupting ones flesh, which just happens to fall in line with the concept of how Andraste is perceived."
Technically, Oghren says, "Don't get your knickers in a twist, sweet cheeks. I don't know how mystical this Urn really is. The lyrium veins in these walls are richer and purer than any I've sensed in a while. It's doing things... changing this temple and everything in it."
The lyrium ALSO created multiple spirits of figures known in Andraste's time... who evidently have been seriously watching the Thedas History Channel.
IF the lyrium can do all that - the dwarven "religion" is the right one.
No one addresses it as something that couldn't have been done any other way. Magic could have been involved.
Never have, and you've got another thing coming if you think the Chantry would disappear overnight and nobody would notice. You realize the Chantry is the single most powerful and influential organization in Thedas, right?
Well, what else would he be? That's exactly my point. Ander's sure as hell isn't Qunari, or any of those tribes, so he has to be Andrastian. It's just the default.
Yevon was stronger than Chantry. To make you understand lets imagine this happens:
It becomes a reality that maker doesn't exist and some people have manipulated everything and everyone and created chantry. Enraged, every single person goes on a mission to overthrow it and they will succeed.
This is what happened to Yevon.
@LobselVith8: I bet Eamon think's it's mystical.. since nothing else on Thedas could heal him.
Also - alcoholic dwarves are not my "go to" for information about anything - even Lyrium.
@LobselVith8: I bet Eamon think's it's mystical.. since nothing else on Thedas could heal him.
Except for the cure to the poison that Loghain supposedly had, of course.
@LobselVith8: Oh, did Jowan tell you that?
And that is still some helpful lyrium to create such a spectacle all to create an antidote.
Lyrium is a bit of a drama queen.
@LobselVith8: Oh, did Jowan tell you that?
The debates about Loghain that Gaider participated in, where he gave more context to the former Teyrn.
And that is still some helpful lyrium to create such a spectacle all to create an antidote.
Lyrium is a bit of a drama queen.
You mean the apparitions, who could have been created through the use of magic, as absolutely no one comments on how they couldn't possibly exist without divine intervention.
What I found fascinating about the temple of Sacred ashes wasn't the spectacle, as we had seen equally powerful displays of magic, but how the magic was was shaped entirely around Chantry teachings. Outdated ones, in fact, as Shartran was featured prominently.
I serious doubt the lyrium would do that on its own. Some being or beings who knew of the early Chantry's teachings must have shaped it to be what it was. Either spirits, mage disciples, or perhaps even Andrastae herself, if she really was that powerful a mage.
@lil yonce: That's interesting - and the war is going to kill any chance for those negotiations for a while. Where was your mage when Asunder needed him/her?
My mage - she would not have endorsed a circle split. And the Andoral's Reach vote was... blegh. Three fraternities voted against separation but it still passed, and a Libertarian cast the Aequitarian deciding vote.
With only about 100 mages in attendance, I'm not sure why they choose to fraternity representation in the first place. I wonder how many mages would have voted against the split had a direct vote been tallied.
And that's if you want to give this vote any legitimacy. I think it has none.
Yevon was stronger than Chantry. To make you understand lets imagine this happens:
It becomes a reality that maker doesn't exist and some people have manipulated everything and everyone and created chantry. Enraged, every single person goes on a mission to overthrow it and they will succeed.
This is what happened to Yevon.
The major difference, of course, being that the Chantry hasn't spent the last thousand years reducing civilization to scattered 'allowed' city states. By killing everything else.
What I found fascinating about the temple of Sacred ashes wasn't the spectacle, as we had seen equally powerful displays of magic, but how the magic was was shaped entirely around Chantry teachings. Outdated ones, in fact, as Shartran was featured prominently.
I serious doubt the lyrium would do that on its own. Some being or beings who knew of the early Chantry's teachings must have shaped it to be what it was. Either spirits, mage disciples, or perhaps even Andrastae herself, if she really was that powerful a mage.
Well, yes. It seems extremely probable that the temple was built by mage followers of Andraste. What was up with the Guardian isn't quite clear, but he's probably possessed in some way.
Aveline is shaky at best. The PC in Origins can be.
A culturally Andrastian women who married a Templar and expresses doubt now and again, and a special little snowflake. I'll give you two and a half. Versus the entire human population of: Ferelden, Orlais, Nevarra, the Marches, Antiva, the Anderfels, and debatabley Tevinter.
Given the enormously powerful displays of magic that have been spoken of before in the lore, plus the huge lyrium vein the temple is built on, I don't at all believe that it would have been impossible to build with magic. Which strikes me as a somewhat less extraordinary claim than all Chantry dogma being right.
I'm not saying every single claim the Chantry makes is correct. But to walk into a place filled with magic so powerful we've only heard of it's like in legends, and then to walk back out scoffing at the very idea of the Maker's existence requires a truly staggering amount of denial.
Yevon was stronger than Chantry. To make you understand lets imagine this happens:
It becomes a reality that maker doesn't exist and some people have manipulated everything and everyone and created chantry. Enraged, every single person goes on a mission to overthrow it and they will succeed.
This is what happened to Yevon.
Ok. I never played FFX, so I guess it sucks to be Yevon. I couldn't see that happening to the Chantry though.
My mage - she would not have endorsed a circle split. And the Andoral's Reach vote was... blegh. Three fraternities voted against separation but it still passed, and a Libertarian cast the Aequitarian deciding vote.
With only about 100 mages in attendance, I'm not sure why they choose to fraternity representation in the first place. I wonder how many mages would have voted against the split had a direct vote been tallied.
It was not a normal time.
Events of Kirkwall enraged many mages, annulment because of actions of a mage not even associated with the circle.
Also Lambert disbanded college of Enchanters when they proposed the very idea of autonomy, this also caused anger.
There was no succession or much control and as you know thousands of mages already joined the cause at the reach. If it was a normal time many mages in fear for their lives wouldn't want a split. This time round survival meant splitting not the other way around.
The major difference, of course, being that the Chantry hasn't spent the last thousand years reducing civilization to scattered 'allowed' city states. By killing everything else.
Because it does not have the power but it doesn't mean its hasn't tried/still trying to do so, Northern countries either don't follow Chantry altogether or follow the imperial chantry. The wars between them speak volumes. Orlais speaks volumes. When it conquers new lands its the "will of the maker" but when it loses land "HERETICS! RECAPTURE!" etc etc...
Because it does not have the power but it doesn't mean its hasn't tried/still trying to do so, Northern countries either don't follow Chantry altogether or follow the imperial chantry. The wars between them speak volumes. Orlais speaks volumes. When it conquers new lands its the "will of the maker" but when it loses land "HERETICS! RECAPTURE!" etc etc...
Uh, no. Attempting what Yevon did is pretty much the opposite of what the Chantry wants. Yevon kept the population small and isolated, so they could be better controlled through fear and the threat of extinction. The Chantry's own doctrine requires a population of belief that spreads to every corner of the world. This is why they convert rather than exterminate.
A culturally Andrastian women who married a Templar and expresses doubt now and again, and a special little snowflake. I'll give you two and a half. Versus the entire human population of: Ferelden, Orlais, Nevarra, the Marches, Antiva, the Anderfels, and debatabley Tevinter.
We don't know how many people in Andrastian society are agnostic or atheist.
I'm not saying every single claim the Chantry makes is correct. But to walk into a place filled with magic so powerful we've only heard of it's like in legends, and then to walk back out scoffing at the very idea of the Maker's existence requires a truly staggering amount of denial.
Considering how Oghren points out that a rich wall of lyrium is changing everything in the temple, including the ashes, I don't see why it would require denial for someone to believe that there isn't a Maker or that there is no higher power.
We don't know how many people in Andrastian society are agnostic or atheist.
Tumblr's search engine is terrible, so I probably can't dig it up, but David Gaider has said that atheism basically doesn't exist in Thedas, anymore than it did in 15th century Europe. Still this argument is going to start going in circles. Basically, I think it's funny how you always call humans Andrastian humans. I think you're the only person on this forum who uses that word in any context other than contrasting the City Elves to the Dalish. And even then, odds are good it's you anyway. 
Considering how Oghren points out that a rich wall of lyrium is changing everything in the temple, including the ashes, I don't see why it would require denial for someone to believe that there isn't a Maker or that there is no higher power.
Lyrium does not do that, and we have no reason to think it ever has. Lyrium isn't a catch-all, do anything phlebtonium, it has specific and well-defined properties, none of which come close to explaining even half of what we saw in the Gauntlet. Not to mention the complete lack of any such magic in the Deep Roads, which also has Lyrium out the wazoo.
But this isn't really the right thread for this debate, so I'll refrain from continuing.
@LobselVith8: I bet Eamon think's it's mystical.. since nothing else on Thedas could heal him.
Also - alcoholic dwarves are not my "go to" for information about anything - even Lyrium.
I'd go to a dwarf who spent his whole life underground, recognizing the 'tingle' lyrium gives off on what the feel of lyrium does than go to a man who spent months comatose and a wife who is so devout in the faith that she doesn't think twice in searching for a mythical relic (which turns out to actually exist, but still.)
I haven't know Oghren to be wrong about a lot of things. Absolutely disgusting manners and a love of fighting and glory, but when he gives an opinion on something not related, I'm not sure I've ever known him to be dead wrong.
When it comes to lyrium, I'll trust any dwarf who lives underground far more than I would anyone who lives above ground.
Tumblr's search engine is terrible, so I probably can't dig it up, but David Gaider has said that atheism basically doesn't exist in Thedas, anymore than it did in 15th century Europe. Still this argument is going to start going in circles. Basically, I think it's funny how you always call humans Andrastian humans. I think you're the only person on this forum who uses that word in any context other than contrasting the City Elves to the Dalish. And even then, odds are good it's you anyway.
Gaider initially said that there wasn't an atheist option for Origins, but he was proven to be mistaken; there's even an option to express that you don't believe in the Maker in Awakening. Atheism has also existed for centuries, so I don't see why anyone would assume it's a recent phenomenon.
Gaider initially said that there wasn't an atheist option for Origins, but he was proven to be mistaken; there's even an option to express that you don't believe in the Maker in Awakening. Atheism has also existed for centuries, so I don't see why anyone would assume it's a recent phenomenon.
Probably because until recently, being an aetheist could literally get you killed if you disagreed with the head of state about what religion you should be.
Lyrium does not do that, and we have no reason to think it ever has. Lyrium isn't a catch-all, do anything phlebtonium, it has specific and well-defined properties, none of which come close to explaining even half of what we saw in the Gauntlet. Not to mention the complete lack of any such magic in the Deep Roads, which also has Lyrium out the wazoo.
But this isn't really the right thread for this debate, so I'll refrain from continuing.
Well, we do know that lyrium causes weird spiritual presences; they appear as enemies in the Deep Roads a fair few times. We also know from Justice that physical places retain memories that can be read by Fade creatures, because nothing truly dies there (as opposed to in the Fade, where nothing outlives the spirit that created it).
Gaider initially said that there wasn't an atheist option for Origins, but he was proven to be mistaken; there's even an option to express that you don't believe in the Maker in Awakening. Atheism has also existed for centuries, so I don't see why anyone would assume it's a recent phenomenon.
Player characters are special, but I also think he said that those options were not expressions of Atheism, just rejection of the Maker. Basically, those options were put there for elven and dwarven characters, and humans just got them also.
True, atheists have always been around, but it's only been in the past, say, 100 years you could describe them using words like "numerous", "organized", "powerful", "significant", or "relevant"
Lyrium does not do that, and we have no reason to think it ever has. Lyrium isn't a catch-all, do anything phlebtonium, it has specific and well-defined properties, none of which come close to explaining even half of what we saw in the Gauntlet. Not to mention the complete lack of any such magic in the Deep Roads, which also has Lyrium out the wazoo.
But this isn't really the right thread for this debate, so I'll refrain from continuing.
Tevinter mages and Dwarves disagree. The smiths of Amgarrak, under the jurisdiction of a Tevinter mage, created strange contraptions known as lyrium wells, capable of shifting objects and people through different levels of the Fade and creating runic golems.
Lyrium is from the fade and has its' properties. Ironically do you know pride demons have the exact same abilities of a fully trained Templar? They can dispel and disrupt magic. Its the Lyrium.
Tevinter mages and Dwarves disagree. The smiths of Amgarrak, under the jurisdiction of a Tevinter mage, created strange contraptions known as lyrium wells, capable of shifting objects and people through different levels of the Fade and creating runic golems.
Lyrium is from the fade and has its' properties. Ironically do you know pride demons have the exact same abilities of a fully trained Templar? They can dispel and disrupt magic.
Lyrium is an ore with a strong connection to the Fade. It actually grows in the rock itself.
It's not surprising denizens of the Fade would have the same abilities as templars, who imbibe an ore with a strong connection to the fade, thus giving them School of Spirit powers under another name.
Player characters are special, but I also think he said that those options were not expressions of Atheism, just rejection of the Maker. Basically, those options were put there for elven and dwarven characters, and humans just got them also.
Being a member of a culture where you're only exposed to a single god - the Maker - and expressing that you don't believe in that god is certainly an example of expressing an atheist point of view; even Gaider conceded that he was wrong about the Cousland protagonist not being able to express an atheist point of view when another poster provided the exact dialogue that could he said by the player. Even the Surana protagonist, who is culturally Andrastian, could express that the Maker wasn't his god.
True, atheists have always been around, but it's only been in the past, say, 100 years you could describe them using words like "numerous", "organized", "powerful", "significant", or "relevant"
You don't need to be organized or powerful to be an atheist.
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