Not entirely true, both DAO and DA2 showed Templars who aren't biased towards mages
True, there were a few sympathetic templars. I just wish there was a way templars could do their jobs without being lyrium addicts completely controlled by the chantry, it skews their brains and perspective.
More accurately if they are a danger to the public, which Mages by their existence.
But taking away someone's freedom just in case they might abuse their power isn't right. Not all mages are maleficars, the majority would be benevolent people. I would like to give them trust here, if they abuse that trust then by all means lock them away then. The danger of possession will always be there unfortunately which is why I would hope that if they are taught from a young age how best to avoid these pitfalls they could live in harmony with people and use their magic for good. The system we have now isn't working, its just breathing bitterness and resentment, no one enjoys being oppressed.
Do they deserve it? Some do. Some don't.
I wouldn't do it though. Power corrupts and all that and mages have more power than most at their fingertips.
True, there were a few sympathetic templars. I just wish there was a way templars could do their jobs without being lyrium addicts completely controlled by the chantry, it skews their brains and perspective.
That isn't really the problem, I'd think Templars who have personal baggage against mages would be a bigger issue
Of the Dalish mages(we've met five via the games), one was possessed by a demon(Marethari), two turned to blood magic(Merrill and Zathrian), and one tried to launch a one-woman crusade of killing every human in the Arling of Ameranthine(Velanna).
Zathrian cursed the humans who murdered his son and raped his daughter (who committed suicide), Velanna originally left her clan to fight the humans who tried to burn down the forest and Velanna's clan with it, and Merrill isn't a bad person simply because she's a blood mage; even some Wardens use blood magic, because it gives them an edge against the darkspawn.
You're also pointing to three people (I'm not counting Merrill because vilifying someone for using blood magic and not abusing her powers is ridiculous), and saying that it paints the entirety of the Dalish in the same light as the Chantry controlled Circles, despite the multitude of the clans and their existence for centuries, since the Orlesian occupation of the Dales.
It seems to me that the Dalish have a success rate with their mages comparable to the the Circle....
Three people, out of an innumerable number of clans. Let's just say I strongly disagree.
The argument comes down to this, you can shackle and weaken the mages for as long as you want but eventually they'll recognise their true potential. All they have to do is coordinate and I honestly believe they'll win the Mage Templar war. So it's not about if they deserve freedom it's about whether or not every mundane will be flayed alive and used in blood rituals
Good Luck with that, There are a lot more normal people (I hate the title mudane, to me it's akin to the N word or other variants of racial/Cultural/Ethic superiority) Out there then there are Magicl Wielders, Furthermore, they are fighting people who's sole purpose is to ward against magic users, They really picked their opponents well.
Geniuses the lot of them.
That said, i do believe that a whole lot of executions are in order for the mages once their rebellion ends, there is a list in my head with quite a few of them on it, After the trouble makers are dead, the rest of them should be put in their place easy enough.
Mages should have more freedom. But the risk of becoming an abomination and the temptation to abuse their power is ever present. There has to be a middle ground. The current system failed. Whether they deserve it or not is not for me to judge. That's all I have to say about it.
^ Mostly this.
We should all realize by in-game examples alone that total freedom is unreasonable.
Truthfully the only utility magic should serve, should be at the behest of the various Nations of Thedas, and beyond that, the various factions and people who can afford to pay for the services of the circle. Ultimately Magic, Mages are a resource for the State and should be treated as such.
Absolutely not. It makes no sense to acknowledge the potential dangers of magic, and then advocate placing this power in the hands of the least responsible demographic in Thedas.
What those arguing for killing all mages don't get is this: You want to kill the mages to prevent people from dying right? Well, ultimately, far more people (both mages and non-mages) would have to be killed if you implemented that policy than would be killed by mages if you didn't implement that policy. You can't always tell who a mage is, so you'd probably end up killing many non-mages by accident, and family members of those people and mages would probably start revolting, so you'd have to kill those people...and well, before you know it, you have a huge war on your hands and lots of people die. Mages have a risk of turning into abominations but there don't seem to be many abominations that end up killing hundreds or thousands of people. Most seem to be stopped before that point. Even Anders ended up using a bomb, if magic would have been more effective, I'm sure he would have used that.
Seriously, while I think what happens in Tevinter is wrong, that is largely due to corruption which is the result of the magisters having so much social power, not magical power. They can do whatever they want, including using blood magic to kill tons of slaves, because those things are considered acceptable in Tevinter society and most aren't willing to oppose them. In areas of Thedas where slavery and blood magic are not acceptable, those things aren't going to suddenly become more common because mages aren't locked up in towers and I don't get the impression that abominations are any more common in Tevinter than they are anywhere else. I guess we'll get a better impression of whether or not that's the case though when we get to talk to Dorian.
I'd approve of the mages being treated more like they are in places like Rivain. From the wiki:
"Though a Circle existed in Rivain, it was merely a means to appease the Chantry. The mages of the Circle were allowed to see their families and the women were specifically trained to be seers, a position in Rivaini society that is revered as a matter of tradition. These local hedge witches converse with spirits and even allow themselves to be possessed, though it is supposedly done so for the benefit of their villages. These seers educate apprentices in their craft and are allowed their freedom provided they assist Templars when needed. The Rivaini Circles are similar to those elsewhere in Thedas and are supported financially by Andrastian nobles."
Mages should be taught and trained to control their powers, though apprentices should be able to see their families as much as possible and adults should be given freedom to start their own families. The Circles should be regulated in some way, but largely by the mages themselves as well as the governments of the countries they are located in. Templars should just essentially be treated as police who act in cooperation with the mages and only apprehend them if they do something wrong.
Zathrian cursed the humans who murdered his son and raped his daughter (who committed suicide), Velanna originally left her clan to fight the humans who tried to burn down the forest and Velanna's clan with it, and Merrill isn't a bad person simply because she's a blood mage; even some Wardens use blood magic, because it gives them an edge against the darkspawn.
You're also pointing to three people (I'm not counting Merrill because vilifying someone for using blood magic and not abusing her powers is ridiculous), and saying that it paints the entirety of the Dalish in the same light as the Chantry controlled Circles, despite the multitude of the clans and their existence for centuries, since the Orlesian occupation of the Dales.
Everyone has reasons for their actions in Dragon Age. Whether they're valid or not depends on the player's viewpoint. The reasoning behind Zathrian's curse stopped being against the specific humans more than 75 years prior to the events of Origins. And Velanna's forest and clan weren't even harmed by humans.
And you're right, i'm pointing at three Dalish mages(and the clans they inhabit), and saying they are representative of the entirety of the Dalish. Just as the two Circle's we've seen are considered representative of the entire system.
Three people, out of an innumerable number of clans. Let's just say I strongly disagree.
You're right, in that it isn't fair. But it's just the same as pointing at the three bad Templars shown in the two games and saying it's indicative of all the Templars of the other 10 Circles...
Absolutely not. It makes no sense to acknowledge the potential dangers of magic, and then advocate placing this power in the hands of the least responsible demographic in Thedas.
They already had access to it in the prior centuries, Hence the Circle's involvement in the various conflicts throughout Thedas, i see no reason to deny the nobility their access to the Circle, if they are willing to pay for it.
After all, the Circle isn't a cheap endeavor, so obviously tithes to the Chantry should be included with usage.
I am simply more open to the usage of this resource in battle.
They deserve some extent of freedom but there must still be restrictions that apply only and exclusively to them so normal people can be protected.
What those arguing for killing all mages don't get is this: You want to kill the mages to prevent people from dying right? Well, ultimately, far more people (both mages and non-mages) would have to be killed if you implemented that policy than would be killed by mages if you didn't implement that policy. You can't always tell who a mage is, so you'd probably end up killing many non-mages by accident, and family members of those people and mages would probably start revolting, so you'd have to kill those people...and well, before you know it, you have a huge war on your hands and lots of people die. Mages have a risk of turning into abominations but there don't seem to be many abominations that end up killing hundreds or thousands of people. Most seem to be stopped before that point. Even Anders ended up using a bomb, if magic would have been more effective, I'm sure he would have used that.
Seriously, while I think what happens in Tevinter is wrong, that is largely due to corruption which is the result of the magisters having so much social power, not magical power. They can do whatever they want, including using blood magic to kill tons of slaves, because those things are considered acceptable in Tevinter society and most aren't willing to oppose them. In areas of Thedas where slavery and blood magic are not acceptable, those things aren't going to suddenly become more common because mages aren't locked up in towers and I don't get the impression that abominations are any more common in Tevinter than they are anywhere else. I guess we'll get a better impression of whether or not that's the case though when we get to talk to Dorian.
Not rly how many died during blights that were cuased by darkspawn not mention time between blights and that just 1 of disasters caused by mages 1 of many.Ultimately it is pure benefit in terms of safety we have at best few thousands mages in thedas not counting tevinter.Mages are unstable bombs to provent many disasters that mage can bring and probably will.It is not different that what circles do during harrowing and as proved it hardly shows which mage will cause damage which won't but now.
And no i don't see many peoples throwoing their life for mages that most hate or are indifferent as that doesn't touch them same as problems that elves have.
They already had access to it in the prior centuries, Hence the Circle's involvement in the various conflicts throughout Thedas, i see no reason to deny the nobility their access to the Circle, if they are willing to pay for it.
To speak in terms beyond finances, they're not willing to pay for it, they never will be. When things go wrong, they're hardly ever the ones who get to suffer the consequences personally, which is exactly why they should never be allowed to utilize the mages for these purposes.
But taking away someone's freedom just in case they might abuse their power isn't right. Not all mages are maleficars, the majority would be benevolent people. I would like to give them trust here, if they abuse that trust then by all means lock them away then. The danger of possession will always be there unfortunately which is why I would hope that if they are taught from a young age how best to avoid these pitfalls they could live in harmony with people and use their magic for good. The system we have now isn't working, its just breathing bitterness and resentment, no one enjoys being oppressed.
To you perhaps, but you're using modern morality on a fictional medieval universe problem.
Mages are inherently dangerous and must be controlled. All this kumbaya and "equal rights" nonsense doesn't work when you have mutants capable of shooting napalm from their hands and turning into homicidal Cthulhu offspring.
To speak in terms beyond finances, they're not willing to pay for it, they never will be. When things go wrong, they're hardly ever the ones who get to suffer the consequences personally, which is exactly why they should never be allowed to utilize the mages for these purposes.
They are willing to pay for it apparently if their usage in the Orelsian occupation of Fereldan is anything to go by, The Revered Mother made it quite plain that Orlais was paying a steep bill for them to actually be involved in their occupation. But in truth, i want it to be avalaible to more then mere Nations, I want to make it available to communities, to cities and organizations.
I want to expand that, To expand magic as a military resource, After all it's the same principle as bring Gatlock to the common man, What is the course for Cities without their own Circle within them? Because short of the Freemarches, you will only have one per Nation. You export the Magic to them, Make Mages and Magic a military resource, Not only does this benifit the mages and circle who are receiving the increase income but it also further cements the belief in magic as a tool of war.
It improves relations between the common man and Mage one dead bandit at a time, of course this will obviously have to be carefully monitored and observed, you can't trust mages to not run when they are taken out of their cells obviously, but you can maximize the odds of them not being able to do so. It makes Mages useful, Improves relations, makes the Chantry and Circles a good bit of coin and best of all, those efforts can aid in the security and stability of Thedas.
After all, i am of the mind that no prison population should be idle, they are a waste of resources otherwise.
Yep.
Merrill is a stupid child, glad she's dead.
There is only one Thing to say about this Topic:
They shall submit to the Qun.
I want to expand that, To expand magic as a military resource, After all it's the same principle as bring Gatlock to the common man, What is the course for Cities without their own Circle within them? Because short of the Freemarches, you will only have one per Nation. You export the Magic to them, Make Mages and Magic a military resource, Not only does this benifit the mages and circle who are receiving the increase income but it also further cements the belief in magic as a tool of war.
Or, in reality, further cements the belief that magic is a force of destruction, used to oppress those who do not have access to it, because who will it be used against primarily? Commoners, and common-born soldiers. You're talking about them being bandit-killers but, come on, let's be real here.
It makes Mages useful, Improves relations, makes the Chantry and Circles a good bit of coin and best of all, those efforts can aid in the security and stability of Thedas.
Magic already has many uses outside of the battlefield. And how is offering the ability to conjure up firestorms and black-holes to anyone with a big enough wallet supposed to make Thedas more stable?
'Deserve' is a funny word, loaded with connotations and absent context.
There are some types of freedom they would benefit from that would not come at the expense of anyone else's freedoms.
There are some types of freedom they would benefit from that would come at the expense of someone else's freedoms.
There are some types of freedom they would lose from that would not come at the benefit of anyone else's freedoms.
There are some types of freedom they would lose from that would come at the benefit of someone else's freedoms.
Yes, they deserve it. They're not like walking nukes; they're like walking guns. Walking gun-wielders. (is there a less awkward way to say that) Strict controls on lyrium might be acceptable and sensible. Mages, less so. Also, they can do more than just destroy. They have pretty amazing and useful healing powers! I think it would be extremely short-sighted and ill-advised to try get rid of people with such powers.
Perhaps the Circle system is the best we've seen so far in Thedas, but I don't know why we'd assume that's the best, or close to the best, system that could exist. Why should we assume south Andrastian societies have a sensible approach to magic any more than they have a sensible approach to nobility? No countries in Thedas are liberal democracies. (although only one pariah state has de jure slavery and another is already a single-party communist state, so they have to be close... hopefully)
The Harrowing in particular strikes me as a bad idea, a bit of medieval cruelty and nonsense. "Here, we're going to have you do something dangerous and life/sanity-threatening, but we're not going to tell you what or when. Good luck!" Do non-Andrastians in Rivain do anything like that? What about the Dalish? How common are abominations per mage in those societies, or Tevinter? Are they more common or less than in White Chantry societies?
The Qunari have gunpowder. Perhaps the spread of fantasy firearms among Thedosian nations will help balance power between mages and non-mages. You know what they say, the only thing that stops a bad mage with blood magic is a non-mage with a 14th century musket. Or something.
Where mages were curbed has always seemed strange to me.
I agree with Harrowings, I agree with Tranquility, I agree with young mages be required to be relocated to a Circle Tower. I agree with Templars being in existence to hunt rogue mages.
However - what's the point of not allowing mages to have relationships with their families? What does that achieve?
What is the point of purposefully curbing freedom of mages who have, time and again, proven themselves? This is a stickier point as I have seen nothing that indicates that mages cannot get, and sometimes easily, special dispensation to leave their Circles. It is likely a product of the most glaringly wrong aspect.
Why does the Chantry sanction their bigotry? Surely it would be MUCH better for the Chantry to enforce a "Mages have been tasked with a special burden. They have been given a gift, but that gift comes with risks. We must ensure the safety of all the Maker's people." not "Mages are scum, K? Like SCUMMY SCUM... K?"
It just seems like someone came along as said: You know what, let's do everything in our power to ****** these really dangerous people off!
Ideally, this is how I think it should go for the life of a mage.
When discovered to be a mage, they are taken to the Circle so they can learn how to control their powers and how to avoid the perils they will face in their life.
Once proven to be able to withstand the temptations from demons and have a solid grasp on their powers, they are allowed to leave the Circle.
However every once in a while, like say once a month, the Templars visit you like someone akin to a parole officer to check if you are still doing well.
If they pass, you get to stay where they are. If they do not, they are taken back to the Circle for a refresher course or if malificarum, disciplinary action.
Or, in reality, further cements the belief that magic is a force of destruction, used to oppress those who do not have access to it, because who will it be used against primarily? Commoners, and common-born soldiers. You're talking about them being bandit-killers but, come on, let's be real here.
It is a force of destruction, there is no hiding that fact.
And Commoners and Common Born soldiers that happened to be pick a bad place to be bandits, pillagers or otherwise a nuisance. It will however reinforce that this force of destruction is only unleashed upon those who are rightfully guilty of being a menace to society as a whole.
Magic already has many uses outside of the battlefield. And how is offering the ability to conjure up firestorms and black-holes to anyone with a big enough wallet supposed to make Thedas more stable?
Magic has many uses outside the battlefield, that commoners are never exposed to, but honestly that might be for the better. You know, beyond enchanting services, that should still be publicly accessible, but healing and other skillsets should still be reserved for the higher tiered citizenry, or at least until the practice becomes more common place.
How? Simple, it will be plied trade designed to target those who are engaging in practices that viewed as abominable, if you will forgive the term. I figured, the Chantry and State in question, could dictate what constitutes a legal contract within territories or not, It wouldn't be as if a random person could march to the circle and approach on matters of leveling the entirety of Nevarra city just because they happened to have a bit of gold in their pouch.
It isn't a perfect outline, but does offer a service sorely needed in Thedas, from a group that is otherwise just sitting in towers across the landing, whining about not wanting to be in towers. Of course, the money used from this commissions will also go to expanding and outfitting the Templar Order, what with the focus on the war magic needed for this, you will surely need more Templars and better quality ones that.
It isn't as if this is going to be transformed into a policing agency or anything of the sort, its just a thought regarding the usage of mages in Thedas to the actual benefit of the public.
Why does the Chantry sanction their bigotry? Surely it would be MUCH better for the Chantry to enforce a "Mages have been tasked with a special burden. They have been given a gift, but that gift comes with risks. We must ensure the safety of all the Maker's people." not "Mages are scum, K? Like SCUMMY SCUM... K?"
I don't think this is unrealistic. Some real-life religious organizations say similar things about (for example) sexual minorities, who still (often) feel unwelcome in them and have to deal with bigotry that doesn't necessarily match the religion's official line. Does the Chantry actually sanction their bigotry to the extent that you're saying it does? I'm under the impression that it doesn't, but I could be wrong. Sister Petrice seemed to think Andrastian societies clearly treated mages better than the Qunari (I would agree), even though they definitely preach what you're saying they should.
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