772 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

Ideally, this is how I think it should go for the life of a mage. 

 

When discovered to be a mage, they are taken to the Circle so they can learn how to control their powers and how to avoid the perils they will face in their life.

Once proven to be able to withstand the temptations from demons and have a solid grasp on their powers, they are allowed to leave the Circle.

However every once in a while, like say once a month, the Templars visit you like someone akin to a parole officer to check if you are still doing well.

If they pass, you get to stay where they are. If they do not, they are taken back to the Circle for a refresher course or if malificarum, disciplinary action. 

 

That disciplinary action better in involve a summarily beheading the mage.

[LobselVith8]

If you think Merill isn't indicitive of a larger problem among mages, then you've obviously never faced off against demons with her. Consistently, CONSISTENTLY, Merrill disapproves of Hawke destroying demons who are clearly a threat to her/him or someone they're trying to save
You can be perfectly nice to her and still drive the relationship all the way to full rivalry JUST BY FIGHTING DANGEROUS DEMONS

 

This is incorrect. Merrill approves getting information from a spirit, and has no problem with the demise of the spirit once information has been gathered, as we know from the example of the Profane Abomination (who can divulge what lies ahead in the primeval thaig) and Torpor (who can explain that two powerful spirits are vying for control over Feynriel).

 

You can gather intel and then attack them immediately afterwards without any opposition from Merrill.

 

BTW I'm not complaining about this aspect of her character because it gives her depths of meaning that make her more real to me than some of the other companions.

 

You might be confusing Merrill's cultural and religious view of all spirits as spirits for something else entirely; she's Dalish, they are all dangerous spirits to her, not Spirits and Demons, i.e. the First Children of the Maker and those who turned their backs on the Maker in jealousy over humanity.

[The Baconer]

And Commoners and Common Born soldiers that happened to be pick a bad place to be bandits, pillagers or otherwise a nuisance. It will however reinforce that this force of destruction is only unleashed upon those who are rightfully guilty of being a menace to society as a whole.

 

No it won't, it'll reinforce the idea that is a force of destruction that can be used at the whims of people born richer than you. And mages, of course, will continue to be (justifiably) resented.

 

 

You know, beyond enchanting services, that should still be publicly accessible, but healing and other skillsets should still be reserved for the higher tiered citizenry, or at least until the practice becomes more common place.

 

Healing reserved for "higher-tiered citizenry"? That is back-asswards.

 

 

How? Simple, it will be plied trade designed to target those who are engaging in practices that viewed as abominable, if you will forgive the term. I figured, the Chantry and State in question, could dictate what constitutes a legal contract within territories or not, It wouldn't be as if a random person could march to the circle and approach on matters of leveling the entirety of Nevarra city just because they happened to have a bit of gold in their pouch.

 

That is literally what you said, though, that beyond whatever uses the state (or the crown) would have for the mages, any faction and individual wealthy enough could also utilize these services. So our logic here is:

 

"Mages need to be isolated and locked up for your safety! They could go crazy and kill you and your family at any moment! Now, if some blue blood pays a mage to atomize you, that's fine."

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That disciplinary action better in involve a summarily beheading the mage.

Depends on what they did. 

[Master Warder Z_]

No it won't, it'll reinforce the idea that is a force of destruction that can be used at the whims of people born richer than you. And mages, of course, will continue to be (justifiably) resented.

 

How so? That isn't going to be laid upon them unless if they happen to be breaking the law, Obviously there could be collateral damage and all, such as if Bandits were operating in a city, but in that case, there would be no reason to even employ their services, My point was merely that could be used in situations where standard forces would not be enough.

 

Such in the case of Monsters, Bandits and etc.

 

 

And resentment will follow magic wherever it goes, at least this way they will be paid well for the services that are beneficial to the community.

Healing reserved for "higher-tiered citizenry"? That is back-asswards.

 

Healers are among the rarest of Mages, That school is rarely taught, even rarer is you find someone good in it, So Yes until it got more common place it should remain as is, Heads of State and others that can actually foot the bill for that luxury.

That is literally what you said, though, that beyond whatever uses the state (or the crown) would have for the mages, any faction and individual wealthy enough could also utilize these services. So our logic here is:

 

It really isn't.

 

As i said before, the Chantry and State would constitute what could be legally done with those services, and i doubt either would approve of mass murder of the peasantry. For fairly obvious reasons.

 

 

 

"Mages need to be isolated and locked up for your safety! They could go crazy and kill you and your family at any moment! Now, if some blue blood pays a mage to atomize you, that's fine."

 

If Blue Bloods want to pay to atomize the people that harass, kill and rob you is more accurate.

 

After all, if a supply caravan is robbed, not only are the peasantry going to suffer from the lack of supplies, the actual owners of the merchant caravan are going to lose money, its a system that will help both parties.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Normal templars are necessary to hunt down mages only effecitve way to provide safety is kill mages and then repeat systematically.

 

Tell me more about your genocide plans Pol Pot.
 

[TK514]

Everyone deserves freedom.  However, it is an unfortunate truth that, sometimes, the security of the many comes at a cost to the few.  In Thedas, Mages bear that cost.

 

It is unfortunate, because they don't ask to be as they are, and many of them would be otherwise if they could.  However, the collective history of Thedas, combined with mages potentially being dangerous well out of proportion to their numbers, means that, realistically, there is no other way things could have gone to this point.  And as long as Tevinter stands as a boogieman to Thedas, the collective opinion is unlikely to change without a notable counterexample.

 

This is one reason it is unfortunate that the Mages seem to be squandering the opportunity they won by rebelling.  They had a chance to show the common man that they were good folk, capable of resisting the urge to abuse their great powers, and instead they rampage the Hinterlands, pillaging and killing.  Instead of showing that the Magisters were an isolated group in Tevinter or the distant past, they reenforce that mages are power mad tormentors who may become slaves to their baser natures at the slightest provocation.

 

You might say that Templars are behaving badly as well, and you would be correct.  But the Templars aren't trying to reverse over a thousand years of negative public opinion coupled with modern examples of Mages gone bad.  Further, if the Templar name becomes irrevocably stained, it is simple enough to 'disband the order' and restart it with a new name and new heraldry while promising that this new order will cleave more closely to the teachings of the Maker etc etc.

 

Again, everyone deserves freedom.  But until the Mages find a way to mitigate the worst outcomes of their excesses, they will be the minority who sacrifice their freedom so that the majority can feel secure.

[Hellion Rex]

^To be fair though, TK, both sides are f*cking up the Hinterlands, though your point still stands.

[TK514]

^To be fair though, TK, both sides are f*cking up the Hinterlands, though your point still stands.

 

I pointed that out, good sir.

[Hellion Rex]

I pointed that out, good sir.

Long day + mobile BSN = blindness

Never mind me.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Tell me more about your genocide plans Pol Pot.
 

Rly your defence line is throwing at me names of the peoples you dislike?

[teenparty]

I dunno. Let's ask Sten. Did anyone see where he went?

[The Baconer]

How so? That isn't going to be laid upon them unless if they happen to be breaking the law, Obviously there could be collateral damage and all, such as if Bandits were operating in a city, but in that case, there would be no reason to even employ their services, My point was merely that could be used in situations where standard forces would not be enough.

 

Such in the case of Monsters, Bandits and etc.

 

Civil wars? Wars with other Thedosian nations? Spats between quarreling nobles? Rather common occurrences within Thedas, in which whether or not you're "breaking the law" is decided by what section of land you happen to be living on.

 

 

Healers are among the rarest of Mages, That school is rarely taught, even rarer is you find someone good in it, So Yes until it got more common place it should remain as is, Heads of State and others that can actually foot the bill for that luxury.

 

And if a healer decides they want to do some work pro bono?

 

As i said before, the Chantry and State would constitute what could be legally done with those services, and i doubt either would approve of mass murder of the peasantry. For fairly obvious reasons.

 

Clearly, they approve of it more often than you'd think. The current Orlesian Civil War? The occupation of Ferelden? Or pheraps the Fereldan Civil War?

 

If it is understood that even Mages who are educated in their craft cannot be trusted to be left to their own devices, people who know nothing should be trusted even less with the handling of this power. 

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Rly your defence line is throwing at me names of the peoples you dislike?

 

Not at all I'm simply comparing someone who advocates genocide and thinks it's good for society to someone who advocated genocide and thought it was good for society.

 

I would love however to see how well your society would exist in Thedas. With no mages the Qunari would flood into Thedas taking over everyone and everything and then once the next Blight happens all life comes to an end because there's no one to perform the blood magic required to make the joining drink.

 

(Yes David Gaider confirmed that the Joining is 100% blood magic)

[Beerfish]

They deserve it but they just can't have it.

[Master Warder Z_]

Civil wars? Wars with other Thedosian nations? Spats between quarreling nobles? Rather common occurrences within Thedas, in which whether or not you're "breaking the law" is decided by what section of land you happen to be living on.

 

Wars between other Nations? I'd think that would be something to keep the Circle out of, I do believe the Chantry had the right approach to that, You don't want them to become the tools of Nations at war, But that said civil wars and occupations and incursions have been covered and i think the Chantry President should be respected, The recognized Party should receive aid if they are able and willing to pay for it.

 

 

And if a healer decides they want to do some work pro bono?

 

Seems like a question they should have with their circle then.

 

 

Clearly, they approve of it more often than you'd think. The current Orlesian Civil War? The occupation of Ferelden? Or pheraps the Fereldan Civil War?

 

The Orelsian Civil war to my knowledge isn't employing Mages of the circle on either side, and the Occupation of the Kingdom of Fereldan, the Circle was used to engage the rebels, that's a presidence i would adhere to. The Nation in question has to be recognized by the Chantry as legitimate, and the Fereldan civil war also didn't employ mages of the circle, They were as i'd advise them to be, neutral in said struggle.

 

 

If it is understood that even Mages who are educated in their craft cannot be trusted to be left to their own devices, people who know nothing should be trusted even less with the handling of this power. 

 

Then what utility do they serve? 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Not at all I'm simply comparing someone who advocates genocide and thinks it's good for society to someone who advocated genocide and thought it was good for society.

 

I would love however to see how well your society would exist in Thedas. With no mages the Qunari would flood into Thedas taking over everyone and everything and then once the next Blight happens all life comes to an end because there's no one to perform the blood magic required to make the joining drink.

 

(Yes David Gaider confirmed that the Joining is 100% blood magic)

There is no real comparison in real world to mage situation unless you want discuss how peoples and governments did (and still do) not nice things when efficient or convenient.Pretty much it is easy to judge foreign society but little harder our own but i won't say more as mods don't want real life discussions at least here.

 

It would function much better than before for sure... no more disasters (like now in inq) that torment nations/towns and leave them devastated and forcing to constant rebuilding their forces.Also lack of mages will push humans toward technology as they will want satisfy their own needs what will be safer and more useful than magic. So in the end Thedas will be better shape without mages spamming it with disasters and with technology development to counter qunari.

 

Wardens aren't much of the problem give them few mages and place them in extremely well controlled conditions then they can prepare joining.

[The Baconer]

Wars between other Nations? I'd think that would be something to keep the Circle out of, I do believe the Chantry had the right approach to that, You don't want them to become the tools of Nations at war, But that said civil wars and occupations and incursions have been covered and i think the Chantry President should be respected, The recognized Party should receive aid if they are able and willing to pay for it.

 

We know the Chantry is dirty, Dawn of the Seeker, the history of Kirkwall, and the occupation of Fereldan all attest to this.

 

 

The Orelsian Civil war to my knowledge isn't employing Mages of the circle on either side, and the Occupation of the Kingdom of Fereldan, the Circle was used to engage the rebels, that's a presidence i would adhere to. The Nation in question has to be recognized by the Chantry as legitimate, and the Fereldan civil war also didn't employ mages of the circle, They were as i'd advise them to be, neutral in said struggle.

 

Firsthand we've seen mages employed illegally on both sides, so already I think we have a good idea as to whether or not nobles can be trusted to be accountable and to use magic responsibly (they can't). In the same book, a noble sacks one of her own villages and has innocent people killed as a punishment for being coerced by hostile soldiers. If your proposed system had been implemented maybe she could have used some mages to sack two or three in record time!

[ISpeakTheTruth]

There is no real comparison in real world to mage situation unless you want discuss how peoples and governments did (and still do) not nice things when efficient or convenient.Pretty much it is easy to judge foreign society but little harder our own but i won't say more as mods don't want real life discussions at least here.

 

It would function much better than before for sure... no more disasters (like now in inq) that torment nations/towns and leave them devastated and forcing to constant rebuilding their forces.Also lack of mages will push humans toward technology as they will want satisfy their own needs what will be safer and more useful than magic. So in the end Thedas will be better shape without mages spamming it with disasters and with technology development to counter qunari.

 

Wardens aren't much of the problem give them few mages and place them in extremely well controlled conditions then they can prepare joining.

 

Pol Pot was a very good real life example that one could use for this situation. He believed that different races, religions, wealth levels, and education levels were dangerous so he just killed them all. Sure some people use money and their education to do horrible things but they shouldn't be destroyed. People think mages are dangerous so they want to kill them all. Sure some mages are evil life destroyers but they shouldn't all be destroyed.

 

Also you end goal is flawed there are situations that technology can't solve... look at the tears in the fade what is your technology suppose to do about that? You admit that real world analogies shouldn't be used in discussion of DA but then you act like technology is going to be the be all end all to all the worlds problems when it isn't and can't be.

 

The fact remains that without mages and without mage society to create the Joining the world would have already been destroyed millennia ago and no in Thedas would have the privilege of debating a mage's role in society because everyone would be a mindless drone. Its only a matter of time for something catastrophic to arrive on Thedas that can's be solved with tech and can only be solved with magic and if there aren't mages around an a culture that has allowed them to build up their knowledge over centuries then the games over. Remember it took Tevinter centuries to find out how to stop the Blight and they had an entire continent of mages to work out the problem... how do you think that would work out in your society now that there are only a few mages in the entire world and there is little to no advancement allowed in magic?

 

I admit that mages are a potential danger, I also believe that 100% mage freedom without oversight can't work. I also know that there are some problems that can only be solved with magic and in those moments you better hope that you have mages and a knowledge base to put them to use or else you're going to utterly helpless.

[Killdren88]

But...Slytherian House makes people become Death Eaters, and Hufflepuff House can't teach people worth ****.

 

As some someone who tested as Hufflepuff in several quizzes all I can say to you good sir Hufflepuff don't care! Hufflepuff do what it wants!

[zestalyn]

They should have mage school, and when they graduate, they're free to do as they please, and are susceptible to law as anyone else, Ban blood magic. The way the Circle Tower works feels like a prison. It's no wonder so many mages end up so effed up.  They need a place, like a school, that's not just for supervision, but a healthy upbringing and learning of their abilities. Include mages in law enforcement who are rewarded for putting down dangerous mages. Checks and balances everywhere. 

[Master Warder Z_]

We know the Chantry is dirty, Dawn of the Seeker, the history of Kirkwall, and the occupation of Fereldan all attest to this.

 

No organization is Pristine or untouched by the baseness of collective greed and pettyness, that said the Chantry is one of the few organizations that is spread far enough, and add in that it already has control of the circles and its the only obvious choice that comes to mind to relegate such a system.

 

 

Firsthand we've seen mages employed illegally on both sides, so already I think we have a good idea as to whether or not nobles can be trusted to be accountable and to use magic responsibly (they can't). In the same book, a noble sacks one of her own villages and has innocent people killed as a punishment for being coerced by hostile soldiers. If your proposed system had been implemented maybe she could have used some mages to sack two or three in record time!

 

Gaspard didn't employ Mages of the Circle, I will point that out rightfully because he had a Hedge Mage whom was hid from the circle in his employ.

 

Beyond that, I'd point out again that it has to be approved by the Crown at a National level and then by the Chantry for it be an official contract, in the case you described, even if the Monarchy or Chantry were willing to turn a blind eye to the sacking of a village, I doubt it would have deterred the action anyway, the case and point of this is that it would happen regardless and is nothing to entrap the mage in question.

 

I'm about done debating this, It seems most of this criticism comes from the possible misuse of magic by the nobility and there is little i can state that would assay that fear, beyond that again for it to be legal, it would have to be approved by the Monarchy and Chantry, i really cannot see most nobles going to the trouble and expense for such a thing, merely to sack a village faster, not to mention basically broadcast their intent to loot their own lands to the Court and Chantry.

[frylock23]

I think the whether or not someone is susceptible to demons has more to do with a person's own strength of character than it does whether or not a person is a mage. Look at what happens during your mission to save Feynriel in DA2. Feynriel is locked in the Fade and tempted for who knows how long by demons, but he resists with no training. However, one of your companions can be very easily tempted to turn on you. All it takes is access to a demon. And in that respect, that's the only way mages have a leg up - ease of access. Mages are easier for demons to contact.

 

As for the Circle. I think it's a good idea. Mages need to be taught how to control their powers, but it needs to stop being a prison. It's enough for mages to never be allowed to take a position of temporal power in society. And the Templars should be a policing organization, but they should serve with mages as their partners.

 

But in reality what we have in Thedas is the two extremes - on one side you have Tevinter where the you see the worst consequences of the abuse of magic power, and on the other you see the side we've been playing in where mages have been marginalized and oppressed to the point where it's a wonder no one has decided to just kill them outright. Neither approach is right, and a happy medium needs to be found.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Pol Pot was a very good real life example that one could use for this situation. He believed that different races, religions, wealth levels, and education levels were dangerous so he just killed them all. Sure some people use money and their education to do horrible things but they shouldn't be destroyed. People think mages are dangerous so they want to kill them all. Sure some mages are evil life destroyers but they shouldn't all be destroyed.

 

Also you end goal is flawed there are situations that technology can't solve... look at the tears in the fade what is your technology suppose to do about that? You admit that real world analogies shouldn't be used in discussion of DA but then you act like technology is going to be the be all end all to all the worlds problems when it isn't and can't be.

 

The fact remains that without mages and without mage society to create the Joining the world would have already been destroyed millennia ago and no in Thedas would have the privilege of debating a mage's role in society because everyone would be a mindless drone. Its only a matter of time for something catastrophic to arrive on Thedas that can's be solved with tech and can only be solved with magic and if there aren't mages around an a culture that has allowed them to build up their knowledge over centuries then the games over. Remember it took Tevinter centuries to find out how to stop the Blight and they had an entire continent of mages to work out the problem... how do you think that would work out in your society now that there are only a few mages in the entire world and there is little to no advancement allowed in magic?

 

I admit that mages are a potential danger, I also believe that 100% mage freedom without oversight can't work. I also know that there are some problems that can only be solved with magic and in those moments you better hope that you have mages and a knowledge base to put them to use or else you're going to utterly helpless.

It isn the same as i said that someone have a different color doesn't make you dangerous at least not more than another peoples when your religion/morality can make you dangerous pretty much peoples kill each other because of it entire time so well... Mages aren't Hitler mages are doomsday .1 mage can send entire city to the fade or bring disaster that will leave entire country or world demolished and they can't be controled as we saw.

 

Pretty much fade tears are mostly caused by mages in fact we saw only 1 place where veil was weakened (not torn) because of non-mages.Pretty much no thanks mages won't make it any better when veil is torned nor they can handle it as only inq have power to do it.With mages veil will be destroyed faster.Besides in such case we have still few mages that wardens have so they can search for solution under as i said very well controled manner.
 

Without mages in first place there wouldn't be blight so it wouldn't be destroyed thousands of years ago pretty much now mages extinguish fire they have started but in fact they set more things on fire they extinguish much more.

[The Baconer]

Gaspard didn't employ Mages of the Circle, I will point that out rightfully because he had a Hedge Mage whom was hid from the circle in his employ.

 

I never claimed he used a mage of the Circle. I claimed that both him and Celene will ignore official Chantry policies regarding magic and mages when it benefits them. The notion that the "State" can be trusted to utilize destructive magic responsively is no less naive than the notion that the mages themselves can be trusted with their own powers. 

 

 

Beyond that, I'd point out again that it has to be approved by the Crown at a National level and then by the Chantry for it be an official contract, in the case you described, even if the Monarchy or Chantry were willing to turn a blind eye to the sacking of a village, I doubt it would have deterred the action anyway, the case and point of this is that it would happen regardless and is nothing to entrap the mage in question.

 

And again I'd point out that the Crown is not an entity that is stable or sufficiently centralized in order to ensure that these privileges are not abused. And, in the same time you can burn down a single village with naught but mundanes at your command, you could burn down 4 or 5 with half the effort with mages. That's 400-500% more "criminals" being delivered justice!