772 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

I think that one of the lasting contributions to fantasy that Dragon Age has done, is to show us just how bad it could be for the world if magic really existed, if the magical aptitude was only given to a few. If magic is unchecked, we get the Tevinter empire, because mages are just so much more powerful. If magic is checked, we get a police state circle that breeds despair and rebellion.

In a way it reminds a lot of the themes from the X-men comics.

[Palidane]

There are two extremes of thought here, and as usual, the answer is found in the middle. Some people want to kill them all and let the Maker sort it out. Besides being morally bankrupt, this course is also laughably stupid. Mages are naturally re-occurring, they're never going to stop showing up. If you commit to this, you're going to be executing frightened six year olds forever, or at least until the Qunari wipe out all independent thought on the continent. You know, because you threw away a major military asset for no freaking reason. Brilliant!

 

Setting all the mages free to do whatever they want is equally stupid. Come on guys, does anyone actually want more Tevinter? Mages are atrociously powerful, and they have to be held accountable. Even assuming every mage was a perfectly behaved Boy Scout, which they aren't, we'd still have to know where they are in case of abominations. Put simply, Mages are too dangerous to be set free with no oversight.

 

So where does that leave us? The Circle system, which has worked out fairly well for the past 800 years. I think if we adjusted the power dynamics between the Mages and Templars, we'd have the ideal system.

[Xandurpein]

And again I'd point out that the Crown is not an entity that is stable or sufficiently centralized in order to ensure that these privileges are not abused. And, in the same time you can burn down a single village with naught but mundanes at your command, you could burn down 4 or 5 with half the effort with mages. That's 400-500% more "criminals" being delivered justice!

I would argue that no power, chantry, state or any other is anywhere near enough stable to police anything in a way that wouldn't be offensive to modern minds. The chantry has, for example, no compulsion about slaughtering people on their "exalted marches" without being answerable to anyone.

[TheKomandorShepard]

There are two extremes of thought here, and as usual, the answer is found in the middle. Some people want to kill them all and let the Maker sort it out. Besides being morally bankrupt, this course is also laughably stupid. Mages are naturally re-occurring, they're never going to stop showing up. If you commit to this, you're going to be executing frightened six year olds forever, or at least until the Qunari wipe out all independent thought on the continent. You know, because you threw away a major military asset for no freaking reason. Brilliant!

So where does that leave us? The Circle system, which has worked out fairly well for the past 800 years. I think if we adjusted the power dynamics between the Mages and Templars, we'd have the ideal system.

So what are 6 year old immortal? Besides im sure when thedas is set on fire by mages constantly but hey we have mages they can destroy our cities , resources and leave nations devastated but hey we have mages they will defeat qunari like they did in tevinter that was crushed by qunari in record time...   opss but hey we have mages!

 

And yes it worked great all those disaster caused by mages and that we had to deal with were foreseen and planned by circles for training purposes!Everything is under control!

[Master Warder Z_]

I never claimed he used a mage of the Circle. I claimed that both him and Celene will ignore official Chantry policies regarding magic and mages when it benefits them. The notion that the "State" can be trusted to utilize destructive magic responsively is no less naive than the notion that the mages themselves can be trusted with their own powers. 

 

Hence why the Crown will be in Tandem with the Chantry in this endeavor, Neither the Chantry nor the State can approve the operational usage of mages within the boundaries of that nation without the parties coming to agreement on it, there are no full proof systems but this system would make sure as much of this as possible would be on the level, because obviously the usage of Circle Mages, would not be allowed if it violated any basic statutes of law.

 

 

And again I'd point out that the Crown is not an entity that is stable or sufficiently centralized in order to ensure that these privileges are not abused. And, in the same time you can burn down a single village with naught but mundanes at your command, you could burn down 4 or 5 with half the effort with mages. That's 400-500% more "criminals" being delivered justice!

 

It generally is at least at the national level, and that is all that will matter for the usage, for example a Duke in Orlais cannot petition for the removal of Bandits in Nevarra, Furthermore the basis of the contract when coming from nobility, would be questioned as to why exactly their standard forces are incapable of accomplishing the task in question. Also i'd question why you would think it would make sense for the nobility to obliterate the people that work their lands, man their shops and make up their armies on a regular level, even within DA the sort of thing tends to only happen in exaggerated circumstances.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xandurpein:  I agree, it is something I enjoy about Dragon Age.  The presentation that magic is not perfectly "the best possible thing that could happen to you" in Dragon Age is very appealing.

 

Warhammer Fantasy/40K did it quite a long time ago - but Dragon Age is certainly adding to a tradition I prefer over the D&D superhero mage.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

It isn the same as i said that someone have a different color doesn't make you dangerous at least not more than another peoples when your religion/morality can make you dangerous pretty much peoples kill each other because of it entire time so well... Mages aren't Hitler mages are doomsday .1 mage can send entire city to the fade or bring disaster that will leave entire country or world demolished and they can't be controled as we saw.

 

Pretty much fade tears are mostly caused by mages in fact we saw only 1 place where veil was weakened (not torn) because of non-mages.Pretty much no thanks mages won't make it any better when veil is torned nor they can handle it as only inq have power to do it.With mages veil will be destroyed faster.Besides in such case we have still few mages that wardens have so they can search for solution under as i said very well controled manner.
 

Without mages in first place there wouldn't be blight so it wouldn't be destroyed thousands of years ago pretty much now mages extinguish fire they have started but in fact they set more things on fire they extinguish much more.

 

Yet again if mages being free was such a horrible fate the Tevinter wouldn't be the oldest human society in Thedas. Mages are free and have been free in Tevinter for thousands of years and yet no cataclysmic distruction has befallen them or the world.

 

As for the Blight your belief that mages caused it is based on nothing but blind speculations and nothing more. No one knows what truly started the Blight all we know for sure is without mages the world would have been destroyed a long long time ago.
 

[Xandurpein]

@Xandurpein:  I agree, it is something I enjoy about Dragon Age.  The presentation that magic is not perfectly "the best possible thing that could happen to you" in Dragon Age is very appealing.
 
Warhammer Fantasy/40K did it quite a long time ago - but Dragon Age is certainly adding to a tradition I prefer over the D&D superhero mage.

How could I forget Warhammer! David Gaider must have played Warhammer at some point. The whole idea of magic, demons and fade is straight out of Warhammer and 40K. Thank you for reminding me.

[Master Warder Z_]

without mages the world would have been destroyed a long long time ago.

 

 

Not really considering DG didn't specify why exactly "Blood Magic" was needed, It could just be a easier method then a pedestal or Mortar. In fact given that more light has been shed on this subject due to WOT, i think because the blood idea was investigated by mages from Tveinter after learning of the practice via Naraki, that is where this notion came from.

 

Just because a Magister a thousand years ago did it that way, doesn't mean it can't be done a different way with a bowl and masher.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yet again if mages being free was such a horrible fate the Tevinter wouldn't be the oldest human society in Thedas. Mages are free and have been free in Tevinter for thousands of years and yet no cataclysmic distruction has befallen them or the world.

 

As for the Blight your belief that mages caused it is based on nothing but blind speculations and nothing more. No one knows what truly started the Blight all we know for sure is without mages the world would have been destroyed a long long time ago.
 

That something survived X years doesn't mean anything circles survived eight centuries but they caused a lot of mess/were unable to prevent that mess as we see through games.Then we have orzammar with their suicidal traditions that was slowly dying but survived (and possible still is) many centuries.As i said Thedas still exist because they were able to counter mages disasters in the end with astronomical losses and damage sooner or later thedas may be not lucky because mages summoned army of demons because XXX reason like for example now.

 

No we know that mages that from Corypheus (hell even Anders who was super pro-mage had to admit that chantry has a point) so doesn't matter if that was maker who cursed them or just they went in place they shouldn't they caused it and brought into thedas end of the story.

[The Baconer]

Hence why the Crown will be in Tandem with the Chantry in this endeavor, Neither the Chantry nor the State can approve the operational usage of mages within the boundaries of that nation without the parties coming to agreement on it, there are no full proof systems but this system would make sure as much of this as possible would be on the level, because obviously the usage of Circle Mages, would not be allowed if it violated any basic statutes of law.

 

It generally is at least at the national level, and that is all that will matter for the usage, for example a Duke in Orlais cannot petition for the removal of Bandits in Nevarra, Furthermore the basis of the contract when coming from nobility, would be questioned as to why exactly their standard forces are incapable of accomplishing the task in question.

 

And how is this not the same as the current system in place? What demands that the nobility needs more access to destructive magic?

 

 

Also i'd question why you would think it would make sense for the nobility to obliterate the people that work their lands, man their shops and make up their armies on a regular level, even within DA the sort of thing tends to only happen in exaggerated circumstances.

 

Of course it doesn't make sense, but they've gone and done exactly that. They also hold balls, and set their countrymen to killing each other while their lands are being ravaged by demons. Don't ask me to explain why they do these things, I'm only judging them for it.

 

Another thing that they like to do (which admittedly makes more sense) is obliterate the people that work on the lands of other nobles, be they rivals, of an invading nation, or a nation being invaded. Either way, Circle mages should not be allowed to assist in either task.

[Master Warder Z_]

And how is this not the same as the current system in place? What demands that the nobility needs more access to destructive magic?

 

It isn't the same because the only services available to the nobility, apart from enchanting is healing, And Demands that Nobility have more access to magic? the dangers and threats of the day to day world, And of course you seem fixated on the nobility, i also would want to include, guilds and organizations, and communities. What they don't have access to is strengthening the veil, destroying beasts that are beyond them and their forces and finally having access to the abilities of a mage when they are combating threats.

 

 

Of course it doesn't make sense, but they've gone and done exactly that. They also hold balls, and set their countrymen to killing each other while their lands are being ravaged by demons. Don't ask me to explain why they do these things, I'm only judging them for it.

 

...Are you talking about DAI at the moment? That's just Orlais, that's the game, there isn't much that can be done about that.

 

Beyond limiting the use of such a service and holding it up to the standards of legality as much as possible.

 

 

Another thing that they like to do (which admittedly makes more sense) is obliterate the people that work on the lands of other nobles, be they rivals, of an invading nation, or a nation being invaded. Either way, Circle mages should not be allowed to assist in either task.

 

I have no disagreement with that, i thought you would have gathered i didn't want them anywhere near wars between Nations.

 

Short of the Qunari anyway.

[Xandurpein]

Actually, it makes perfect sense to obliterate a village or two, if it intimidates the other villages into submission. I mean seriously, feudal society works because the aristocracy has a monopoly of violence. I hope none of this forum is idealistic enough to believe that feudalism was a happy time compared to our times...

[ISpeakTheTruth]

 

No we know that mages that from Corypheus (hell even Anders who was super pro-mage had to admit that chantry has a point) so doesn't matter if that was maker who cursed them or just they went in place they shouldn't they caused it and brought into thedas end of the story.

 

No, the story is just that a story created by an anti-mage barbarian leader. The only thing we know is that the Golden City was already tainted before the Magisters got there which means someone else turned the Golden City black. If you think about the lore that states the Darkspawn first appeared in the Deep Roads I'd say it was the dwarves that tainted the Golden City and they were the ones that started the Darkspawn. Sure the Magisters got turned into Darkspawn too but if they were the cause of the Blight then why didn't it start on the surface where the Magisters were? The truth is we don't know what happened to the city and we don't know who started the Blights. The only thing we know is the city had already been tainted before they got there.

[Xandurpein]

The only thing about magic in Dragon Age I find unrealistic is how it seems to only exist for two purposes, scholarly research and destruction. Where is the mage who found a way to use his power to build something or just make a buck?

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The only thing about magic in Dragon Age I find unrealistic is how it seems to only exist for two purposes, scholarly research and destruction. Where is the mage who found a way to use his power to build something or just make a buck?

 

Actually the Tevinter used magic to make the Imperial highway.... and ummm.... I'm drawing a blank but that's one good example.

[TheKomandorShepard]

No, the story is just that a story created by an anti-mage barbarian leader. The only thing we know is that the Golden City was already tainted before the Magisters got there which means someone else turned the Golden City black. If you think about the lore that states the Darkspawn first appeared in the Deep Roads I'd say it was the dwarves that tainted the Golden City and they were the ones that started the Darkspawn. Sure the Magisters got turned into Darkspawn too but if they were the cause of the Blight then why didn't it start on the surface where the Magisters were? The truth is we don't know what happened to the city and we don't know who started the Blights. The only thing we know is the city had already been tainted before they got there.

Lore? nope dwarven version claim that what have sense that dwarves did see for first time darkspawn on the deep roads not to mention that Corrypheus is darkspawn and also magister who went to the black city , black city could be corrupted or whatever with their first step into the fade and even then as i said it doesn't matter if it was black city , golden city , pink city or if it was maker who cursed them or just they went to the place they shouldn't in the end it were magisters who brought blight from the black city.It even helps that last corrypheus memories were from black city and as i said he is a darkspawn and magister that went to the black city.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The only thing about magic in Dragon Age I find unrealistic is how it seems to only exist for two purposes, scholarly research and destruction. Where is the mage who found a way to use his power to build something or just make a buck?

Anders used his to heal refugees for a few years. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Anders used his to heal refugees for a few years. 

And then he nuked chantry and caused death of more peoples than he cured.

 

In fact anders was most useful mage in the setting when it comes to using magic shame that he crushed that in the end.

[Master Warder Z_]

Anders used his to heal refugees for a few years. 

 

Just so he could likely convert them to his underground movement<_<''

 

It makes so much sense if you look at him like a terrorist. >_>''

[LOLandStuff]

"Look at me, I'm healing. I can't possibly...Woops! That wasn't me. That was Justice...Vengeance. Actually, that was the both of us...But mostly him."

[iCooper]

There are two extremes of thought here, and as usual, the answer is found in the middle. Some people want to kill them all and let the Maker sort it out. Besides being morally bankrupt, this course is also laughably stupid. Mages are naturally re-occurring, they're never going to stop showing up. If you commit to this, you're going to be executing frightened six year olds forever, or at least until the Qunari wipe out all independent thought on the continent. You know, because you threw away a major military asset for no freaking reason. Brilliant!
 
Setting all the mages free to do whatever they want is equally stupid. Come on guys, does anyone actually want more Tevinter? Mages are atrociously powerful, and they have to be held accountable. Even assuming every mage was a perfectly behaved Boy Scout, which they aren't, we'd still have to know where they are in case of abominations. Put simply, Mages are too dangerous to be set free with no oversight.
 
So where does that leave us? The Circle system, which has worked out fairly well for the past 800 years. I think if we adjusted the power dynamics between the Mages and Templars, we'd have the ideal system.

Agreed. I think that perhaps if the Templars were less like prison wardens and more like partners to the mages, a lot more freedom could be afforded to mages after they've finished their studies and gone through the Harrowing. If they wished to leave the Circle, a templar or two could be sent with them. Not only would they be able to keep the mage in check should they do anything they're not supposed to, but they could also defend the mage from angry pitchfork wielding mobs. While mages have plenty of power of their own, I can't see someone like Bethany being too thrilled about blasting away civilians, even if they were trying to lynch her.

Of course, there might be an issue of priorities if mages and templars get friendly (or frisky), in which case a different set of templars could be assigned to a mage on each different excursion, to make sure that there's no conflict of interest.

Perhaps small towns could be set up near to the Circles, so that mages could live relatively normal lives under the supervision of the templars. Some mages would still object to being guarded 24/7 (looking at you, Anders) but I think many of them would be a lot more content with their situation and wouldn't resort to blood magic if they were afforded more freedoms and weren't made Tranquil just for farting too near a templar.

[The Baconer]

It isn't the same because the only services available to the nobility, apart from enchanting is healing, And Demands that Nobility have more access to magic? the dangers and threats of the day to day world, And of course you seem fixated on the nobility, i also would want to include, guilds and organizations, and communities. What they don't have access to is strengthening the veil, destroying beasts that are beyond them and their forces and finally having access to the abilities of a mage when they are combating threats.

 

I'm fixated on the nobility because the idea that destructive magic is a service that should be extended to factions and individuals is even more injudicious. If a guild, organization, or community is facing a threat so severe that they require destructive magic, how would said threat not also be a concern for the local authorities? A non-governmental faction should never under any circumstance be allowed to directly recruit mages in this fashion.

 

 

...Are you talking about DAI at the moment? That's just Orlais, that's the game, there isn't much that can be done about that.

 

Beyond limiting the use of such a service and holding it up to the standards of legality as much as possible.

 

There was also the recent Fereldan Civil War. Or the lunacy of the Magisters.

 

These are not people who have standards or respect legality when it inconveniences them.

 

 

Short of the Qunari anyway.

 

I have no disagreement with that.

[Vroom Vroom]

Even if the mages were hunted down and killed, some would escape and more would be born. I have a strange suggestion: Thedas is currently in between Blights, most of the mages could be conscripted to the Grey Wardens, thus allowing them more freedom as they wouldn't be bound to circles/towers. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm fixated on the nobility because the idea that destructive magic is a service that should be extended to factions and individuals is even more injudicious. If a guild, organization, or community is facing a threat so severe that they require destructive magic, how would said threat not also be a concern for the local authorities? A non-governmental faction should never under any circumstance be allowed to directly recruit mages in this fashion.

 

And yet we have witnessed this.

 

Dalish Clans Squatting near cities, Qunari Mercenaries encamped outside of Fereldan's capital, High Dragons within spitting distance of cities, Perhaps it is because these events always happen while these local authorities and resources are busy combating other issues, they aren't resolved but the point of it is, it is obvious that there is need for such a service.

 

I am not saying that the process should be easy to obtain, but i see little reason why it shouldn't be offered, Especially considering there likely would be more call for this sort of work then the kind you propose, which likely wouldn't be accepted in any case. 

 

 

There was also the recent Fereldan Civil War. Or the lunacy of the Magisters.

 

These are not people who have standards or respect legality when it inconveniences them.

 

And that is why, they like every one else will have to their case aired out before the Court, The Monarch and the Chantry, if it has merit this is a different story, but truthfully answer me this, Do you think the sorts of people who would go before these people with their concerns would fabricate a tale that could potentially blow back into their face and discredit/humiliate them if it ever came to light, rather then using their own trusted resources regardless?

 

 

I have no disagreement with that.

 

I didn't think you would.