772 réponses à ce sujet

[Altima Darkspells]

The problem with systematically killing mages--beyond the fact that it'd make Thedas pathetically easy to conquer by Qunari--is that eventually someone with power is going to end up with a mage child. Then there will be more war, murder, and so on.

Then the witch hunts would start, and accusing someone of being a mage becomes more of a polictical ploy, which leads to tyranny, and so forth.

Face it, mages are here to stay, and wholesale slaughter of them is not practical. Imprisoning them also doesn't work, as proven by the Circle system, even if it is a nice prison they're stuck in. So the only process that has not been tried is autonomy, and the mages of Tevinter seem to be doing fine themselves (despite being mostly made up of slaving assholes).

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Agreed. I think that perhaps if the Templars were less like prison wardens and more like partners to the mages, a lot more freedom could be afforded to mages after they've finished their studies and gone through the Harrowing. If they wished to leave the Circle, a templar or two could be sent with them. Not only would they be able to keep the mage in check should they do anything they're not supposed to, but they could also defend the mage from angry pitchfork wielding mobs. While mages have plenty of power of their own, I can't see someone like Bethany being too thrilled about blasting away civilians, even if they were trying to lynch her.

Of course, there might be an issue of priorities if mages and templars get friendly (or frisky), in which case a different set of templars could be assigned to a mage on each different excursion, to make sure that there's no conflict of interest.

Perhaps small towns could be set up near to the Circles, so that mages could live relatively normal lives under the supervision of the templars. Some mages would still object to being guarded 24/7 (looking at you, Anders) but I think many of them would be a lot more content with their situation and wouldn't resort to blood magic if they were afforded more freedoms and weren't made Tranquil just for farting too near a templar.

 

My plan for mages would be something similar. After they complete their Harrowing and are deemed stable by their instructors they are allowed to leave the circle and live their lives. However the phylactery is still used by the Templars. A mage is given and 'zone' in which they can live something like the size of a city once they choice their zone they are randomly checked on by Templars and an assigned mage to make sure there's no corruption. The phylactery is used to make sure the mage stays in his or her designated 'zone' and to obviously track and disable any rule breaker. If a mage wishes to move to another 'zone' they would simply petition their local Circle and a new 'zone' will be assigned.

 

For safety purposes Templars will be dispersed in each 'zone' to make sure any issues that come up can be responded to in a timely manner. If mages wish to have children and their children end up being mages they will be relocated to a local Circle. Their parents will be allowed visitation during this time and if deemed trustworthy allowed to go home from time to time but with Templar escorts.

[The Baconer]

And yet we have witnessed this.

 

Dalish Clans Squatting near cities, Qunari Mercenaries encamped outside of Fereldan's capital, High Dragons within spitting distance of cities, Perhaps it is because these events always happen while these local authorities and resources are busy combating other issues, they aren't resolved but the point of it is, it is obvious that there is need for such a service.

 

Regarding the Dalish clans and the high dragons, unless the employers will also be providing sufficient auxiliary forces, I can't see the Chantry signing off on third-party contracts that will likely lead to the deaths of some Circle mages and their accompanying Templars. Instead of being able to recruit mages directly, it would make more sense for these factions to make their requests to the Circles, along with their funding, and from there the Cricle would bring it to the attention of the crown, making it a matter of the kingdom if it passes the approval process.

 

Tal-Vashoth mercenaries living in the area doesn't strike me as a threat requiring immediate magical retaliation. Indeed, it seems like they would be offering the same type of service as the mages in this case (solving problems that the authorities are unable to, for coin).

 

 

And that is why, they like every one else will have to their case aired out before the Court, The Monarch and the Chantry, if it has merit this is a different story, but truthfully answer me this, Do you think the sorts of people who would go before these people with their concerns would fabricate a tale that could potentially blow back into their face and discredit/humiliate them if it ever came to light, rather then using their own trusted resources regardless?

 

Nobles making scandalous gambits and... and telling lies?

 

Yes. Like, emphatically yes.

[Dabrikishaw]

Until there comes a way to prevent mages from being possessed by demons and turned into abominations, any talk of mages being wholly free isn't feasible.

[Master Warder Z_]

Regarding the Dalish clans and the high dragons, unless the employers will also be providing sufficient auxiliary forces, I can't see the Chantry signing off on third-party contracts that will likely lead to the deaths of some Circle mages and their accompanying Templars. Instead of being able to recruit mages directly, it would make more sense for these factions to make their requests to the Circles, along with their funding, and from there the Cricle would bring it to the attention of the crown, making it a matter of the kingdom if it passes the approval process.

 

Tal-Vashoth mercenaries living in the area doesn't strike me as a threat requiring immediate magical retaliation. Indeed, it seems like they would be offering the same type of service as the mages in this case (solving problems that the authorities are unable to, for coin).

 

Well obviously yes, but those were examples, My point was this; You do have situations that fall well outside the bounds of what standard forces can accomplish alone, even with mercenary assistance. That was the entire premise of the arrangement, You get the Circles to aid in situations such as this for sufficient payment.

 

Yes outsourcing local jobs horn headed heathens, I'm sure that will go over well with the local populace.

 

Also recruiting Circle Mages directly? Did i not make the process clear enough by now? It has to be approved before anything is even done about getting the mages for the situation, then the situation is measured for just how many mages are needed and of what skill class, By the point that the employers are even meeting with mages, the request would have gone before the local chantry representative (Grand Cleric) And the Monarch, and been approved, that would take time, but i couldn't trade alacrity for security obviously.

 

 

Nobles making scandalous gambits and... and telling lies?

 

Yes. Like, emphatically yes.

 

That don't immediately stink of it and likely will have paperwork and meeting for the foreseeable future to achieve it? See that's why i don't think most would even bother with this system, it's too slow, too monitored and too easy to discover obvious discrepancies like this, Such as one Noble citing a village as a bandit haven when it obviously appears as a village on tax records and etc.

 

This gets even more complicated when it happens to fall under another Noble's jurisdiction, because they would have to be called in as well to verify that the threat is indeed present within their lands, for legitimate issues, this poses little problem. After all, you don't want two nobles in Orlais having a shadow war with each other to use this as a tool, same for Antivian Merchant prices or Bannorn Lords.

[Daerog]

Not bothering to read the whole thread, it'll likely just be the abridged version of that 200+ page mage vs templar thread.

 

I'll just say I support the pro-Circle side. Ideally, the one with three branches, templar, enchanter, and seeker. With only enchanter supported templars and templar supported enchanters joining the seekers who oversee the other two. Enchanters set policy and templars enforce, like how it was before. Mages can join enchanters or just remain citizens of the circles. Any other specifics I won't bother with because I don't have all the info necessary for a really informed opinion.

[TheChosenOne]

I think they should make a hogwarts-like system where they sends young kids who have magical abilities to learn how to control it, make it for them to use their magical abilities untill a certain age ( 18 or something ) And if they do something bad, bring them to justice! Not just lock them up in a tower : /

[The Baconer]

Yes outsourcing local jobs horn headed heathens, I'm sure that will go over well with the local populace.

 

Boo-hoo. It's certainly not their job to be inoffensive.

 

Also recruiting Circle Mages directly? Did i not make the process clear enough by now? It has to be approved before anything is even done about getting the mages for the situation, then the situation is measured for just how many mages are needed and of what skill class, By the point that the employers are even meeting with mages, the request would have gone before the local chantry representative (Grand Cleric) And the Monarch, and been approved, that would take time, but i couldn't trade alacrity for security obviously.

 

...

 

That don't immediately stink of it and likely will have paperwork and meeting for the foreseeable future to achieve it? See that's why i don't think most would even bother with this system, it's too slow, too monitored and too easy to discover obvious discrepancies like this, Such as one Noble citing a village as a bandit haven when it obviously appears as a village on tax records and etc.

 

This gets even more complicated when it happens to fall under another Noble's jurisdiction, because they would have to be called in as well to verify that the threat is indeed present within their lands, for legitimate issues, this poses little problem. After all, you don't want two nobles in Orlais having a shadow war with each other to use this as a tool, same for Antivian Merchant prices or Bannorn Lords.

 

Oh boy.

 

You know what, you're right, trying to game this system is a waste of time. Trying to use it legitimately is a waste of time. It's such a turgid, bureaucratic slog that 90% of threats requiring magical response will have long moved on before the paperwork is even finalized.
 

[Ieldra]

Here's a simple answer to the OP:

 

Every sapient being deserves freedom unless they've proven to be unable to handle it or unworthy to have it according to accepted standards. And as for mages specifically, they definitely do not deserve to be supervised by their ideological enemies.

 

However, the question is not what people deserve. Fortunately for some, unfortunately for others, we rarely get what we deserve. Spoken in modern terms, the question is more "How much danger must there be to justify such a massive violation of human rights"? And my answer to that: more extreme measures are only justified after less extreme measures have been shown to systematically fail.

 

There can be no question that mages must learn to control their powers. It may be necessary to kill those who can't learn that. It may be necessary to confine mages until they've learned that. However, after that they should enjoy the same freedoms as everyone else, and just like normal people - or some classes of the mentally deranged - only be confined again if they show themselves to be a danger to society.

 

The combination of mandatory education, temporary confinement until a mage has learned to control their power, and autonomy of those who "graduate" has not been tried in the lands where the Orlesian Chantry holds dominion.  It has not been tried because the Chantry is either afraid, or has grown too used to having the power of mages at their command, or a number of different reasons. As unpleasant as it is otherwise, mages walk free in Tevinter, and the people there appear to have no more problems with possession and such things than any other nation. In fact, it appears they have less. May this be because a free mage has a much higher vested interest in their continued mental freedom than a Circle mage? Because. perhaps, Circle mages who find their situation intolerable have reason to not care? Or because Circle mages tend to become monsters more often because they've been told they are likely to become monsters by the ruling ideology?

 

Regardless of the case, mage autonomy after mandatory education appears to have merit, and it has not been tried outside of Tevinter. Until it has been tried and been shown to fail on a large enough scale, all more extreme measures have to be discounted as unjustified.

[Helios969]

Freedom in absolute terms is largely a state of mind it doesn't really exist in the real world or imaginary...everyone lives with restrictions - it's just a matter of degrees.  People that are miserable by nature will b*tch and complain and try to scheme to make everyone else's lives miserable because they are bitter and jealous and petty regardless of how much "freedom" the enjoy or how much power they wield.  The counterpart are those people who are able to find joy and make the best of the situation regardless of the restrictions placed around them.

 

The circle needs to be maintain albeit with some modifications that include restrictions to Templar power and more independent oversight.  Mages should have more personal freedoms within the circle such as the right to have a family, afforded time away from the facilities, and simply treated with basic decency, (frankly all this talk of a systematic genocide is more than a little disturbing and very creepy.)

[Elite Midget]

To be honest, I believe mages SHOULD be supervised, but only until they reach a certain age and level of knowledge in the magic arts. For instance: Give the mages more freedom (i.e. live in houses and communities outside of the Tower of Magi) once they pass the Harrowing, or become Tranquil. Trapping the mages in a tower for their entire lives like a prison is wrong, in my opinion, they should be able to choose once they reach a certain level.

 

It should be noted that I'm a supporter of the mages over the templars. 

Another thing is that they don't keep track of a Mage's family all that well. Bethany mentions that if she was taken to the Circle as a child than all the Hawke family would be to her would be names in a book. Seems like Templars don't allow family members of Mages to even visit their children/sibling/relatives in the Circle which I feel is very wrong. They have every right to have a family and a life.

 

Yes, they should be supervised but they shouldn't be treated like dirt, and sealed off, for their entire lives simply because of what they could possibly do. Heck, most of the Mages aren't even allowed to fight in wars, even if the need is there, because some Templars fear them so much. 

[TK514]

Another thing is that they don't keep track of a Mage's family all that well. Bethany mentions that if she was taken to the Circle as a child than all the Hawke family would be to her would be names in a book. Seems like Templars don't allow family members of Mages to even visit their children/sibling/relatives in the Circle which I feel is very wrong. They have every right to have a family and a life.
 
Yes, they should be supervised but they shouldn't be treated like dirt, and sealed off, for their entire lives simply because of what they could possibly do. Heck, most of the Mages aren't even allowed to fight in wars, even if the need is there, because some Templars fear them so much.

Except we know that family can visit Mages in a Circle, so Bethany's early belief is wrong. In fact Gamlen is allowed to visit Bethany herself in what is widely regarded as the most oppressive Circle we know of.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Another thing is that they don't keep track of a Mage's family all that well. Bethany mentions that if she was taken to the Circle as a child than all the Hawke family would be to her would be names in a book. Seems like Templars don't allow family members of Mages to even visit their children/sibling/relatives in the Circle which I feel is very wrong. They have every right to have a family and a life.

 

Yes, they should be supervised but they shouldn't be treated like dirt, and sealed off, for their entire lives simply because of what they could possibly do. Heck, most of the Mages aren't even allowed to fight in wars, even if the need is there, because some Templars fear them so much. 

It isn't that families aren't allowed to visist. It is more often that families are INCAPABLE of visiting, due to the often large distances between their living place and the relevant Circle. There is also the fact that Malcolm probably wouldn't want to risk it, since he himself was an Apostate, and probably wouldn't want to be anywhere near a Circle.

[LobselVith8]

Except we know that family can visit Mages in a Circle, so Bethany's early belief is wrong. In fact Gamlen is allowed to visit Bethany herself in what is widely regarded as the most oppressive Circle we know of.

 

Yes, we know that wealthy families can visit their mage relatives (as Hawke has become nobility by the time Gamlen can visit Bethany), while that doesn't seem to be the case for the families without wealth and power.

[AshenEndymion]

Yes, we know that wealthy families can visit their mage relatives (as Hawke has become nobility by the time Gamlen can visit Bethany), while that doesn't seem to be the case for the families without wealth and power.

 

Feynriel was allowed to be visited by his mother, according to his mother.  I assume it was like prison or an asylum in that there are "visiting hours", but it seems that the issue of wealth only means it's far easier for those who are rich to visit their child if they live a fair distance away from the Circle.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yes, we know that wealthy families can visit their mage relatives (as Hawke has become nobility by the time Gamlen can visit Bethany), while that doesn't seem to be the case for the families without wealth and power.

Gamlen is NOT nobility and is STILL living in abject poverty by the time Hawke has attained rank. So your arguement is invalid.

So far everything suggest that families are allowed to visit mages, they just often choose not to, or are simply incapable of it.

[KainD]

No one deserves anything.

[LobselVith8]

Feynriel was allowed to be visited by his mother, according to his mother.  I assume it was like prison or an asylum in that there are "visiting hours", but it seems that the issue of wealth only means it's far easier for those who are rich to visit their child if they live a fair distance away from the Circle.

 

Which, in consideration that Ella tried to leave underground to let her mother know she was okay, could suggest Ser Thrask's intervention more than anything else.

[AshenEndymion]

Which, in consideration that Ella tried to leave underground to let her mother know she was okay, could suggest Ser Thrask's intervention more than anything else.

 

Or that Ella's mother didn't care about her(like the de Launcet's didn't care about Emile until he left the Circle and created "another" scandal with their family).  It's sad to think about, but it's possible that Ella's mother cut off communication herself....

[EmperorSahlertz]

Which, in consideration that Ella tried to leave underground to let her mother know she was okay, could suggest Ser Thrask's intervention more than anything else.

Or it could suggest that Ella wasn't originally from Kirkwall. Let's go with the more likely of the two scenarios shall we?

[LobselVith8]

Gamlen is NOT nobility and is STILL living in abject poverty by the time Hawke has attained rank. So your arguement is invalid.

So far everything suggest that families are allowed to visit mages, they just often choose not to, or are simply incapable of it.

 

Gamlen is Hawke's uncle, who has acquired Amell mansion and has a fortune from the Deep Roads expedition. You might want to bring up an example that doesn't involve the relative of a renowned noble who has gained good standing with the templars and the Viscount.

 

Or it could suggest that Ella wasn't originally from Kirkwall. Let's go with the more likely of the two scenarios shall we?

 

I'm not seeing it as the more likely of the two, because there's no information to support one over the other. The single evidence in three games is a woman who was on friendly terms with Ser Thrask; that's not compelling evidence to me. We also have Circle mages in the Gallows saying that they will get whipped if they are caught speaking to civilians, so I have my doubts.

[Lulupab]

Or it could suggest that Ella wasn't originally from Kirkwall. Let's go with the more likely of the two scenarios shall we?

 

Or it is a plot hole. DA2 certainly has many of them because its a rushed game. Sometimes we see no mage is allowed any visitor, sometimes the opposite. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Gamlen is Hawke's uncle, who has acquired Amell mansion and has a fortune from the Deep Roads expedition. You might want to bring up an example that doesn't involve the relative of a renowned noble who has gained good standing with the templars and the Viscount.

Gamlen is an AMELL. Hawke is a HAWKE. Gamlen is NOT nobility, nor does he share in Hawke's wealth. And others already brought up Feynriel who was the son of an Elf no less, and lo and behold, his mother was allowed to visit. So there is indisputable PROOF that even commoners are allowed to visit their parents.

 

I'm not seeing it as the more likely of the two, because there's no information to support one over the other. The single evidence in three games is a woman who was on friendly terms with Ser Thrask; that's not compelling evidence to me. We also have Circle mages in the Gallows saying that they will get whipped if they are caught speaking to civilians, so I have my doubts.

 So if you see a semi-buried stone you IMMEDIATELY claim that it must be an underground mountain, since there currently is no proof suggesting otherwise?

[LobselVith8]

Gamlen is an AMELL. Hawke is a HAWKE. Gamlen is NOT nobility, nor does he share in Hawke's wealth. And others already brought up Feynriel who was the son of an Elf no less, and lo and behold, his mother was allowed to visit. So there is indisputable PROOF that even commoners are allowed to visit their parents.

 

Gamlen is the relative of a popular noble, despite your continued refusal to acknowledge this simple fact, and throughout three games so far, we have one single woman who was on friendly terms with Ser Thrask (who has been known to bend and break rules for mages) and was allowed to see her son. That's not exactly compelling evidence that this is the normal procedure for the Chantry controlled Circles.

 

 So if you see a semi-buried stone you IMMEDIATELY claim that it must be an underground mountain, since there currently is no proof suggesting otherwise?

 

I'm addressing that the precedent is for wealthy relatives to see mages in the Circle of Magi.

[Freedheart]

@ Emperor - actually, Hawke is nobility through his mother's side - which is Amell...through his wealth, she was able to regain their families standing...