772 réponses à ce sujet

[Aaleel]

@Aaleel:  And what if they don't want to go?  Untrained mages are ridiculously dangerous.

 

I figure the ones who would avoid going to school, would be the same ones that avoid the circle.  Some are just going to be bad. 

 

But how many turn to blood magic or other devices due to being oppressed, how many join up with bad mages for protection, or fear of being locked up.  Mages that may have otherwise turned out fine, but now feel they have to fight to survive or keep their freedom.

 

The Circle should be a jail for mages who used their power for evil purpose not internment camps for all mages good or bad.  You can't on one hand say mages are dangerous, irrational, etc and then when you need to wage war all of a sudden they're trustworthy enough to trust your life to on a battlefield.  They prove their worth, and then you look them up again anyway?

[TheKomandorShepard]

I figure the ones who would avoid going to school, would be the same ones that avoid the circle.  Some are just going to be bad. 

 

But how many turn to blood magic or other devices due to being oppressed, how many join up with bad mages for protection, or fear of being locked up.  Mages that may have otherwise turned out fine, but now feel they have to fight to survive or keep their freedom.

 

The Circle should be a jail for mages who used their power for evil purpose not interment camps for all mages good or bad.  You can't on one hand say mages are dangerous, irrational, etc and then when you need to wage war all of a sudden they're trustworthy enough to trust your life to on a battlefield.  They prove their worth, and then you look them up again?

That is only excuse there is a lot of them in life and there will be a lot more to reach for blood magic or turn into abomination.

Oh your family member/friend is dying hell reach for blood magic or ask demon for help.

Bandits attacked you turn into abomnation or reach for blood magic.

You want make your life easier reach for blood magic.

put 1000 other reasons here

 

Simple humans are flawed and corrupted thus it always make mage dangerous even without demons and then we come to demon problems.

 

As far mages did nothing more (outside anders and then in the end even he) than causing disasters and we have a lot of them.

If dragon age 2 didn't convinced you that mages can't be trusted with their freedom what mages do in Hinterlands should show do that.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Peasants who have spent their lives shoveling dirt for some lord will find their true role in life.  Shoveling dirt for the Qun.

So, to summarize, you consider the continueation of life as you know it. as a threat to your life?

[TheKomandorShepard]

So, to summarize, you consider the continueation of life as you know it. as a threat to your life?

Problem is in that most common folks see qunari as devils and know very little about them so they would definitely see them as threat not to mention that many (if not most) folks follow chantry religion.

[Aaleel]

That is only excuse there is a lot of them in life and there will be a lot more to reach for blood magic or turn into abomination.

Oh your family member/friend is dying hell reach for blood magic or ask demon for help.

Bandits attacked you turn into abomnation or reach for blood magic.

You want make your life easier reach for blood magic.

put 1000 other reasons here

 

Simple humans are flawed and corrupted thus it always make mage dangerous even without demons and then we come to demon problems.

 

As far mages did nothing more (outside anders and then in the end even he) than causing disasters and we have a lot of them.

If dragon age 2 didn't convinced you that mages can't be trusted with their freedom what mages do in Hinterlands should show do that.

 

One thing I've learned playing Dragon Age games is that political figures and leaders are more times bigger criminals and bigger threats than any other group.  Who did more damage, any one mage or Loghain, any one mage or Meredith? 

[TheKomandorShepard]

One thing I've learned playing Dragon Age games is that political figures and leaders are more times bigger criminals and bigger threats than any other group.  Who did more damage, any one mage or Loghain, any one mage or Meredith? 

Do i have mention why Loghain in first place even managed pull his plan and why did that because of blight that mages created and in fact blight caused much much more damage than loghain and it was shortest blight. Then meredith didn't do anything damaging to the city in fact she was protecting it from insane mages (with rather mixed results as blood mages were running on the streets) but in the end it was mage (anders) who caused more damage and mages that were turning into abomnations. 

[Aaleel]

Do i have mention why Loghain in first place even managed pull his plan and why did that because of blight that mages created and in fact blight caused much much more damage than loghain and it was shortest blight. Then meredith didn't do anything damaging to the city in fact she was protecting it from insane mages (with rather mixed results as blood mages were running on the streets) but in the end it was mage (anders) who caused more damage and mages that were turning into abomnations. 

 

Insane mages she created by oppressing them.  She caused the current state the world is in by calling for the right of annulment in Kirkwall for the act of one mage.  Like I said in my other post.  You're always going to have bad apples in every group, but you create enemies out of those who otherwise wouldn't be by oppressing everyone.  The main reason why the Circle will never work in a nutshell.  In a regular situation you just put Anders in jail (circle), and let mages that aren't criminals live their lives.

 

And Loghain, even if you ignore abandoning the king.  He made a power grab when the land should have been coming together, tried to kill a potential ally, made criminals of the group the land needed to stop the blight, was a slave trader, I mean don't even get me started.

 

Edit: Honestly, what made Anders turn so hardcore and extreme, blanket mage oppression.  He didn't start that way. Those who are oppressed will always rebel.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Insane mages she created by oppressing them.  She caused the current state the world is in by calling for the right of annulment in Kirkwall for the act of one mage.  Like I said in my other post.  You're always going to have bad apples in every group, but you create enemies out of those who otherwise wouldn't be by oppressing everyone.  The main reason why the Circle will never work in a nutshell.  In a regular situation you just put Anders in jail (circle), and let mages that aren't criminals live their lives.

 

And Loghain, even if you ignore abandoning the king.  He made a power grab when the land should have been coming together, tried to kill a potential ally, made criminals of the group the land needed to stop the blight, was a slave trader, I mean don't even get me started.

 

Edit: Honestly, what made Anders turn so hardcore and extreme, blanket mage oppression.  He didn't start that way. Those who are oppressed will always rebel.

 

I don't work as i said because of my previous points humans are flawed and corrupted so for example you have mage that went to the school and then as i assume you let him go or at least allow him leave cricle.Everything nice and pretty nope for example mage is ambitious and start experiment with blood magic and turns into abomnation in the middle of the city or something goes bad and it ends with disaster nice we have a huge disaster simple caused by 1 mage.Then person that mage love is sick he reaches for blood magic or made deal with demon like connor then he ends possessed same scenario.Then we have mage attacked thugs and turns into abomnation same scenario.

 

I agree circles don't work but not because it treats mages badly because mages can't be controled closest to control are qunari but they use extreme measures and still sometimes but less it don't work as well. 

 

Then as i said Anders wan't oppresed he was free and even then he merged with spirit what turned to be extremely dangerous for everyone as he was abomnation.Simple for him it was good idea at this moment to be possessed by spirit and how it went we all know. And do i have to mention that anders escaped circle 8 times not to mention many other mages like malcolm hawke...

 

As i said he did it because of blight (that was caused by mages) and it worked because of it so well...

[MisterJB]

I figure the ones who would avoid going to school, would be the same ones that avoid the circle.  Some are just going to be bad. 

 

But how many turn to blood magic or other devices due to being oppressed, how many join up with bad mages for protection, or fear of being locked up.  Mages that may have otherwise turned out fine, but now feel they have to fight to survive or keep their freedom.

 

Ah, but like you said, many mages will go "bad" anyway and there is no way to distinguish between those who will and those who won't.

Therefore, if we establish strict security around all of them, neither those who would go bad anyway nor those who went bad seeking freedom will be able to hurt people because they'll be kept away from them by walls and guards.

 

If one mages escapes and harms others, then that just means security was not tight enough, not that the principle was wrong.
 

 

The Circle should be a jail for mages who used their power for evil purpose not internment camps for all mages good or bad.  You can't on one hand say mages are dangerous, irrational, etc and then when you need to wage war all of a sudden they're trustworthy enough to trust your life to on a battlefield.  They prove their worth, and then you look them up again anyway?

Do soldiers earn the privilege to not have laws apply to them when arrive home? No.

Then why should the mages? The Circle is established upon the very same principle that law itself is. That people are dangerous by default and that we must restrict their freedoms in order to ensure order security.

Since present a greater threat, their freedoms are more restricted still.

However, these can be loosened up if they prove themselves. Wynne and Finn are evidence of such.

[Urazz]

Insane mages she created by oppressing them.  She caused the current state the world is in by calling for the right of annulment in Kirkwall for the act of one mage.  Like I said in my other post.  You're always going to have bad apples in every group, but you create enemies out of those who otherwise wouldn't be by oppressing everyone.  The main reason why the Circle will never work in a nutshell.  In a regular situation you just put Anders in jail (circle), and let mages that aren't criminals live their lives.

 

And Loghain, even if you ignore abandoning the king.  He made a power grab when the land should have been coming together, tried to kill a potential ally, made criminals of the group the land needed to stop the blight, was a slave trader, I mean don't even get me started.

 

Edit: Honestly, what made Anders turn so hardcore and extreme, blanket mage oppression.  He didn't start that way. Those who are oppressed will always rebel.

Didn't they already have a mage prison mentioned in DAO?  I forgot exactly what it was called but I think the Circle should be more akin to a mandatory mage school and once they graduate, they are free to go back home.  Of course there should be a prison for mages that break the alw in my opinion.

 

And what made Anders turn so hardcore and extreme was fusing with Justice who has no idea of moderation and only sees things in black and white.

[Aaleel]

I don't work as i said because of my previous points humans are flawed and corrupted so for example you have mage that went to the school and then as i assume you let him go or at least allow him leave cricle.Everything nice and pretty nope for example mage is ambitious and start experiment with blood magic and turns into abomnation in the middle of the city or something goes bad and it ends with disaster nice we have a huge disaster simple caused by 1 mage.Then person that mage love is sick he reaches for blood magic or made deal with demon like connor then he ends possessed same scenario.Then we have mage attacked thugs and turns into abomnation same scenario.

 

I agree circles don't work but not because it treats mages badly because mages can't be controled closest to control are qunari but they use extreme measures and still sometimes but less it don't work as well. 

 

Then as i said Anders wan't oppresed he was free and even then he merged with spirit what turned to be extremely dangerous for everyone as he was abomnation.Simple for him it was good idea at this moment to be possessed by spirit and how it went we all know. And do i have to mention that anders escaped circle 8 times not to mention many other mages like malcolm hawke...

 

As i said he did it because of blight (that was caused by mages) and it worked because of it so well...

 

Yes how dare someone escape from a place they were locked up without having committed a crime.  Also there's a Bioware work that explains Anders, even after he helped the Wardens they let the first Templar ever into the Wardens and had him constantly follow Anders around until he finally snapped and killed the Templar and some other Wardens, which is why the Wardens are mad at him in DA2.

 

But let's just look at this hypothetical.

 

What if a country one day said 'x' group of people commit the most crime per capita so we're going to lock them all up to make the country safer.  What's going to happen eventually, protests and probably eventually civil war, just like they have now in DA:I.

 

Now the ones that are criminals are Still criminals, this hasn't changed.  But the difference and reason it arose to the level of civil war is because of all the people who weren't criminals, but now are on the other side because they're fighting for their freedom and to be free of oppression.  Whoever thought up the idea of the Circle should have been able to think it's failure out to conclusion.  You can't just lock up innocent people and think they're just going to accept it.

[Dabrikishaw]

I like the Minority Report analogy someone came up with not too long ago. Mages are essentially being locked up for crimes that they may or may not commit before hand. There should be preventative measures for possession other than locking Magi up and throwing away the key.

 

Some people may disagree.

I like that analogy as well but to my knowledge the only way to prevent a mage from succumbing to demon possession is if they have a spirit inside them already.

[Aaleel]

Ah, but like you said, many mages will go "bad" anyway and there is no way to distinguish between those who will and those who won't.

Therefore, if we establish strict security around all of them, neither those who would go bad anyway nor those who went bad seeking freedom will be able to hurt people because they'll be kept away from them by walls and guards.

 

If one mages escapes and harms others, then that just means security was not tight enough, not that the principle was wrong.
 

 

Do soldiers earn the privilege to not have laws apply to them when arrive home? No.

Then why should the mages? The Circle is established upon the very same principle that law itself is. That people are dangerous by default and that we must restrict their freedoms in order to ensure order security.

Since present a greater threat, their freedoms are more restricted still.

However, these can be loosened up if they prove themselves. Wynne and Finn are evidence of such.

 

They earn the rights of every other law abiding citizen. You're actually saying mages should be forced to go to war to protect rights they don't have when the fighting is over.  And this makes sense to people?

[TheKomandorShepard]

I like the Minority Report analogy someone came up with not too long ago. Mages are essentially being locked up for crimes that they may or may not commit before hand. There should be preventative measures for possession other than locking Magi up and throwing away the key.

 

Some people may disagree.

There is kill bastards 100 % assurance that mage won't do anything bad to society.

 

Yes how dare someone escape from a place they were locked up without having committed a crime.  Also there's a Bioware work that explains Anders, even after he helped the Wardens they let the first Templar ever into the Wardens and had him constantly follow Anders around until he finally snapped and killed the Templar and some other Wardens, which is why the Wardens are made at him in DA2.

 

But let's just look at this hypothetical.

 

What if a country one day said 'x' group of people commit the most crime per capita so we're going to lock them all up to make the country safer.  What's going to happen eventually, protests and probably eventually civil war, just like they have now in DA:I.

 

Now the ones that are criminals are Still criminals, this hasn't changed.  But the difference and reason it arose to the level of civil war is because of all the people who weren't criminals, but now are on the other side because they're fighting for their freedom and to be free of oppression.  Whoever thought up the idea of the Circle should have been able to think it's failure out to conclusion.  You can't just lock innocent people and think they're just going to accept it.

I don't argue about whether it is right or no they try fight for their well-being non-mages fight for their what is my point.Point is that mages are dangerous for non-mages (even themselves) so non-mages will protect themselves and go for own well being.Anders turned into abomnation hell even wardens that tolerate blood magic went against him he was danger for society and in da 2 it was proven right.

 

And it is not about crime only about danger bombs can't commit crime but are controled by society mages are bombs not criminals but often both.

 

I don't tell they should accept i say that non-mages do what they have to do to survive end of the story.

 

 

I like that analogy as well but to my knowledge the only way to prevent a mage from succumbing to demon possession is if they have a spirit inside them already.

Yes because cure on abomnation is creating abomnation it worked well with Anders.

[MissMagi]

They earn the rights of every other law abiding citizen. You're actually saying mages should be forced to go to war to protect rights they don't have when the fighting is over.  And this makes sense to people?

It also doesn't seem likely that anyone would be able to force the mages to go to war , not unless it was on their own terms. As Wynne notes in Asunder, "[a] position of strength will only increase our bargaining power as we move forward." They wouldn't stand for being used as subservient attack dogs.

[MisterJB]

They earn the rights of every other law abiding citizen.

 

Mages are not like every other law abiding citizen

 

You're actually saying mages should be forced to go to war to protect rights they don't have when the fighting is over.  And this makes sense to people?

Well, I'm assuming they have an interest in not seeing, say, Ferelden overrun by the Blight or being taken over by Qunari.

Besides, we know mages are rewarded. In fact, Wynne allowed the Orlesian Civil War to happen precisely because she was counting on the Circle being called which would strengthen their bargaining position.

[Aaleel]

There is kill bastards 100 % assurance that mage won't do anything bad to society.

 

I don't argue about whether it is right or no they try fight for their well-being non-mages fight for their what is my point.Point is that mages are dangerous for non-mages (even themselves) so non-mages will protect themselves and go for own well being.Anders turned into abomnation hell even wardens that tolerate blood magic went against him he was danger for society and in da 2 it was proven right.

 

And it is not about crime only about danger bombs can't commit crime but are controled by society mages are bombs not criminals but often both.

 

I don't tell they should accept i say that non-mages do what they have to do to survive end of the story.

 

 

Yes because cure on abomnation is creating abomnation it worked well with Anders.

 

Are really comparing an inanimate object that has to be used by an actual person to someone who has freedom of choice?  IF that's the case you may as well ban swords, knives, bows, catapults, spears, and any other weapon because they could one day fall into the hands of the wrong person.

 

And if non-mages will do what they think they have to, so will mages.   And like I said, that's why the circle will never work, and was always a bad idea.  It's more counterproductive than anything. 

 

If the Warden, Hawke, or Inquisitor had a mage child would all these pro circle people be perfectly fine with their kid being locked up for nothing.  Better yet, if your PC is a mage do you think you should be locked up for nothing at all?

[MisterJB]

Are really comparing an inanimate object that has to be used by an actual person to someone who has freedom of choice?  IF that's the case you may as well ban sword

Give a child a sword and he won't be able to lift.

Give a child magic and you have Connor.

 

And if non-mages will do what they think they have to, so will mages.   And like I said, that's why the circle will never work, and was always a bad idea.  It's more counterproductive than anything.

Uldred became an Abomination and formed an army of demons. How many civillians died? Zero.

How many would have died had it happened in Denerim?

 

How can you say the Circle is counterproductive?

 

If the Warden, Hawke, or Inquisitor had a mage child would all these pro circle people be perfectly fine with their kid being locked up for nothing.

My son is a god.

[MissMagi]

Mages are not like every other law abiding citizen

 

Well, I'm assuming they have an interest in not seeing, say, Ferelden overrun by the Blight or being taken over by Qunari.

Besides, we know mages are rewarded. In fact, Wynne allowed the Orlesian Civil War to happen precisely because she was counting on the Circle being called which would strengthen their bargaining position.

But what if one of their demands was that they be treated like every other law abiding citizen? 

[Aaleel]

Give a child a sword and he won't be able to lift.

Give a child magic and you have Connor.

 

Uldred became an Abomination and formed an army of demons. How many civillians died? Zero.

How many would have died had it happened in Denerim?

 

How can you say the Circle is counterproductive?

 

My son is a god.

 

The circle is counterproductive because it created enemies out of mages who wouldn't otherwise be revolting if they had their freedom to live their lives and has the land in a civil war.

 

You can give a child magic and get Wynne, Bethany, a Grey Warden, Hawke, an Inquisitor, Vivienne, etc, etc etc as well.  But in the way you see the world they should all be locked up.  The hero of Ferelden locked up in a circle after saving the land, and this makes sense?

 

As far as your son, if he is a God then the question stands even more so.  Not that I expected you to answer any part of it anyway.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Are really comparing an inanimate object that has to be used by an actual person to someone who has freedom of choice?  IF that's the case you may as well ban swords, knives, bows, catapults, spears, and any other weapon because they could one day fall into the hands of the wrong person.

 

And if non-mages will do what they think they have to, so will mages.   And like I said, that's why the circle will never work, and was always a bad idea.  It's more counterproductive than anything. 

 

If the Warden, Hawke, or Inquisitor had a mage child would all these pro circle people be perfectly fine with their kid being locked up for nothing.  Better yet, if your PC is a mage do you think you should be locked up for nothing at all?

I don't care rly all talk about that mages are alive as i said mages are danger and bombs are danger both need to be deal with proper preventive measures that will ensure safety of non-mages and world.As i said knife will cause harm of individual or few at worst before society will put you down mage will bring disaster that can eat entirey country alone before society put him down and if society put him down.

 

And pretty much why mages and non-mages can't coexist in safe manner but unlike mages non-mages go for order and stability of the world when mages cause constant chaos and destruction.

 

As i said it is you or me situation if i was a mage i would go for own good as well if i was non-mage but even if i was mage in fact i would prefer non-mages over walking bombs that can cause end of the world because end of the world and burning world would be very bad for me than stable and prosperous society i would take my freedom and become apostate but as i said i would not take mages and abomnations over non-mages.Mage or not other mages still are walking bombs and dangerous for me. 

[MisterJB]

The circle is counterproductive because it created enemies out of mages who wouldn't otherwise be revolting and has the land in a civil war.

It has prevented Uldreds and other Would-Be Magisters for the past 900 years. One moderately sucessfull rebellion in all that time is a very good track record.

 

You can give a child magic and get Wynne, Bethany, a Grey Warden, Hawke, an Inquisitor, Vivienne, etc, etc etc as well.  But in the way you see the world they should all be locked up.  The hero of Ferelden locked up in a circle after saving the land, and this makes sense?

The Hero of Ferelden is a Warden; they're not kept in the Circles.

And yes, the freedoms of every single one you mentioned should be restricted. Because they are all dangerous. Because they can be possessed. Possible good character does not change these facts; until we can perfectly determine which mages will threaten the security and freedoms of normal people and which won't, I think we should apply restrictions to all of them much like every other citizen has his or her freedoms restricted for the safety of those around.

 

Normal children can't, by themselves, do what Connor did. A sword or a bow are not as dangerous as magic.

 

Also, they're not locked up in the Circles day and night for the rest of their lives. Bethany was allowed to leave to attend a party. You just have to prove you're trustworthy enough.

 

As far as your son, if he is a God then the question stands even more so.  Not that I expected you to answer any part of it anyway.

Let' see, if the OGB was taken to Orlais' Circle, he'd live in Emperor Drakon's former palace and receive top notch education usually reserved to nobles and he'd be kept from hurting himself and others so... sure, why not?

In fact, being sent to the Circle is an upgrade for every mage that wasn't born a noble.

 

[Aaleel]

I don't care rly all talk about that mages are alive as i said mages are danger and bombs are danger both need to be deal with proper preventive measures that will ensure safety of non-mages and world.As i said knife will cause harm of individual or few at worst before society will put you down mage will bring disaster that can eat entirey country alone before society put him down and if society put him down.

 

And pretty much why mages and non-mages can't coexist in safe manner but unlike mages non-mages go for order and stability of the world when mages cause constant chaos and destruction.

 

As i said it is you or me situation if i was a mage i would go for own good as well if i was non-mage but even if i was mage in fact i would prefer non-mages over walking bombs that can cause end of the world because end of the world and burning world would be very bad for me than stable and prosperous society i would take my freedom and become apostate but as i said i would not take mages and abomnations over non-mages.Mage or not other mages still are walking bombs and dangerous for me. 

 

Was this a joke?  Non mages never waged war for no other reason than to conquer land costing who knows how many lives?  Non mages didn't engage in slave trade, or pack a group of people into slums like sardines, and use them as servants?  Non mages don't abuse mages and oppress them in circles?

 

There are bad mages, but let's not sit here and act like non-mages are saints.  Non-mages have all the power so honestly that makes them more dangerous if anything.