623 réponses à ce sujet

[phantomrachie]

No, tokenism is making a character that doesn't fit or is unrealistic to the setting for the purpose of pleasing the crowds.

 

If Geralt was suddenly given a homosexual romance it would be tokenism, since it's established Geralt is heterosexual.

 

No - that is not what tokenism means

 

From Wiki

 

A token character is a character in a work of fiction who only exists to achieve the minimum compliance with assumed normality for the environment described in the story.

 

A token character can also be used by writers to pay lip service to rules or standards, when they otherwise have no intention of doing so, such as by obeying anti-racism policies by including a token ethnic minority character who—despite being present often—has no function in the overall plot, does little or nothing, and is often a stereotyped character.

 

Even if your definition was correct then it still doesn't apply to Aveline or any Dragon Age character - not even if we use your own example.

[Pateu]

If we base it purely on strenght that it is definitely possible that Aveline is stronger than a male Mage or Rogue Hawke and possibly a Warrior Hawke too given how long she has been fighting for.

 

http://img3.wikia.no...and_Isabela.jpg

 

The dude's packing plate armor and a claymorestaffsword even as a mage. He manages to fight in melee against the Arishok.

 

Aveline has no physical feats that should put her anywhere near Hawke and if she did why the hell would she be following him instead of it being the other way around?

 

The main character of DA/ME has always been the strongest of his party. Then here comes the manwoman and the guuurl poweeeer crowd starts cheering.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Did I say that?
 
I'm saying the average woman isn't as strong as the average man.
 

 
Sure there are. But Aveline doesn't or shouldn't have anything over Hawke. Hawke's no book worm. Even the mage version of Hawke wears heavy armor ( champion's armor has plate ).
 
So Aveline tackling him with Hawke not being able to react makes no sense.

Aveline also had surprise and a lot of momentum behind her physical strength.

Exactly, the average woman is less strong, hence a 20% female army seems reasonable as the women would be the uncommon ones who are as strong as a man.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Aveline was trained by her father who was a Chevalier, Hawke was trained by a Mage who picked up combat. 
 
If we base it purely on strenght that it is definitely possible that Aveline is stronger than a male Mage or Rogue Hawke and possibly a Warrior Hawke too given how long she has been fighting for.
 
If we base it on skill then Aveline is probably more skilled than a Hawke of any class given her history and experience
 
In either scenario it is possible for her to tackle a make Hawke to the ground.

[phantomrachie]

http://img3.wikia.no...and_Isabela.jpg

 

The dude's packing plate armor and a claymorestaffsword even as a mage. He manages to fight in melee against the Arishok.

 

Aveline has no physical feats that should put her anywhere near Hawke.

 

She too is in plate armor and has surprise & momentum on her side.

 

It is possible. 

[Pateu]

Aveline also had surprise and a lot of momentum behind her physical strength.

Exactly, the average woman is less strong, hence a 20% female army seems reasonable as the women would be the uncommon ones who are as strong as a man.

 

20% ?

 

This is set in a medieval period. How many women were in the army back then?

 

The Witcher does it perfectly without the need to ruin its own immersion with political correctness.

 

How many women fighters do you see in it?

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

When that one strong female happens to literally be the only character in the series that tackles down my main character and I can't stop it, yeah.
 
It's a gross exaggeration and draws at the '' GURL POWER!!! '' chords. 
 
And Cassandra looks the same.

How can you accept that some women are stronger than men and then assume Cassandra is only there because of girl power?

Why is it impossible for her to be one of the women who are stronger than men? Why does being part of that minority make her a bad character in that respect?

Do you hate Isabella because she is a female pirate and statistically those are uncommon?

Did you hate sigrun because female legionaries are rarer?


Just because cass and Aveline happen to be stronger than some men, it doesn't invalidate their character any more than isabela's was by her piracy.

[PillarBiter]

http://img3.wikia.no...and_Isabela.jpg

 

The dude's packing plate armor and a claymorestaffsword even as a mage. He manages to fight in melee against the Arishok.

 

Aveline has no physical feats that should put her anywhere near Hawke.

 

 

hey, that's a neat image, isabela looks far better on that than she does in-game! (no over-the top chest) Better face too

 

 

 

Also, my 2 cents on the topic: I am a white male, and probably thus not the best to judge about this, but even being that, I still find positive discrimination to be the most hypocritical form of discrimination, and personally even worse. Personally I'd be pissed if they hired me because they need another man, if a woman would do a better job.

That said, in regards to this particular point: it costs a lot of rupies for a game to be gender-equal. And bioware does a DAMN fine job of doing it, and is definately a frontrunner on this subject. Nitpicking about a small incongruence is unrespectful to bioware's history, in my view.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

20% ?

This is set in a medieval period. How many women were in the army back then?

The Witcher does it perfectly without the need to ruin its own immersion with political correctness.

How many women fighters do you see in it?

It's set in a medieval period with FAR more progressive views than our medieval society did.

Dragon age Inquisition isn't set in 1100 AD. It's set around 9:40 Dragon.

The armies in discussion are not the Frankish crusader armies besieging constantinople.

They are the wardens defending ostagar, or the Templars controlling kirkwall, and there were sure as hell women present in both those groups in other dragon age games.

Citing The Witcher as a perfect example of a non-sexist game made me laugh out loud, but that is off topic and a discussion for another place.

[Elhanan]

Guess it should depend on the lore (eg; all female High Dragons; fewer female Qunari and Dwarves).

[Pateu]

How can you accept that some women are stronger than men

 

They aren't.

 

No average woman is stronger than the average man.

 

For a woman to be stronger than a man, she has to work out a lot whereas the man should not. But that's not average anymore.

 

As long as both the man and the woman train equally, the man will always be stronger/faster due to biology.

 

 

 

Do you hate Isabella because she is a female pirate and statistically those are uncommon?

 

No, because Isabella isn't ridiculously strong and isn't described as a female battering ram. Isabella is simply fast. She doesn't have any ridiculous feats that a woman doesn't normally have.

 

 

 

Did you hate sigrun because female legionaries are rarer?

 

She didn't tackle my character.

 

 

 

It's set in a medieval period with FAR more progressive views than our medieval society did.

 

Progressive or not, it doesn't change the fact that men are on average better warriors. Training weaker warriors for the same cost simply doesn't make sense.

 

I'm not saying there should be no women soldiers, but those should be exceptional and should not come in massive numbers.

[Warlock]

Shouldn't you be more concerned with getting more capable/worthy/strong/interesting/whatever female characters instead of wanting more female grunts? I mean, I can see that as a much more worthwhile concern. That being said, Bioware games generally have it covered in that respect.

As a side note, has anyone seen the new transformers? I actually couldn't believe the representation of women in that movie, especially on this day and age. Michael Bay sure is a misogynist

[javeart]

Guess it should depend on the lore (eg; all female High Dragons; fewer female Qunari and Dwarves).

 

I understand about Qunaris, but I'm not sure about dwarves. Are women also uncommon in clandestine/criminal dwarven organizations, particularly among surfacers?

[phantomrachie]

 

Progressive or not, it doesn't change the fact that men are on average better warriors. 

 

Being a Warrior is not only about strength it is about skill. 

 

Someone who is better trained as more of a chance of beating a lesser trained opponent.

 

If men and women have equal combat training then they will make equally effective warriors, they may just fight in different ways.

[WildOrchid]

Someone feels his "manhood" being threatened....

[Pateu]

Being a Warrior is not only about strength it is about skill. 

 

Someone who is better trained as more of a chance of beating a lesser trained opponent.

 

If men and women have equal combat training then they will make equally effective warriors, they may just fight in different ways.

 

Nice opinion, but no.

 

Skill is just a small side of it. There's strength ( heavier weapons, heavier armor, heavier shields ), there's speed, there's endurance.

 

Men are superior in all of those. Thus, men are better warriors.

[Pateu]

Someone feels his "manhood" being threatened....

 

Someone's trolling. 

 

But hey, if you like your games' immersion ruined by political correctness, good for you. I'll speak against it, though.

[umadcommander]

i see this is still a thing

 

the witcher 2 had some female fighters as well, unless you just chose not to see ves and saskia or just got your opinion from people on the internet

[Pateu]

i see this is still a thing

 

the witcher 2 had some female fighters as well, unless you just chose not to see ves and saskia or just got your opinion from people on the internet

 

Yes. As I said, EXCEPTIONAL individuals. Not average women, but the best of the best.

 

Why? because the average woman has no place in the military ( especially medieval military which is based on swords, armor and bows which men all use better ) when the average male is superior in every way.

 

You also conveniently forget that Saskia is a dragon.

[WildOrchid]

Someone's trolling. 

 

But hey, if you like your games' immersion ruined by political correctness, good for you. I'll speak against it, though.

 

There's no "political correctness" in games. That's your own assumption because you feel threatened.

[Pateu]

There's no "political correctness" in games. That's your own assumption because you feel threatened.

 

And this is how I know you're trolling.

 

Nice ad hominem btw.

[WildOrchid]

And this is how I know you're trolling.

 

Nice ad hominem btw.

 

So i am right

Your posts make me laugh btw.

[Pateu]

So i am right

Your posts make me laugh btw.

 

Well, considering your only way of retorting my arguments was '' Nu-uh! You just say so because you are threatenened!!!11!! '' I am hardly surprised.

 

So i am right 

 

lol.

[Elhanan]

I understand about Qunaris, but I'm not sure about dwarves. Are women also uncommon in clandestine/criminal dwarven organizations, particularly among surfacers?

As I recall, all Dwarven population was dwindling; thus many of the child-bearing females were side-lined from battle as they were considered of higher value than their male counter-parts. While there may be an equal number of females to males, there would seem to be fewer met on the field of battle, I believe. But again, I am not expert in the lore.

[hexaligned]

Being a Warrior is not only about strength it is about skill. 

 

Someone who is better trained as more of a chance of beating a lesser trained opponent.

 

If men and women have equal combat training then they will make equally effective warriors, they may just fight in different ways.

Yeah, no.  Even in the modern army (which I was in), given equal training women performed at about 80% the effectiveness of men, in anything that involved any sort of complex spatial reasoning.  At anything that involved performing at the extreams of human physical ability, they performed at far less than that. Which isn't to say the human that is best at those things can't be a woman, that's on a general scale of ability.  Extreme outliers can always exist.  If you mean they can make fine support personnel, then yes, but that has nothing to do with being a warrior.