623 réponses à ce sujet

[Pateu]

Are women also uncommon in clandestine/criminal dwarven organizations

 

Wasn't Jarvia the leader of the organisation she was in?

[Pateu]

Yeah, no.  Even in the modern army (which I was in), given equal training women performed at about 80% the effectiveness of men, in anything that involved any sort of complex spatial reasoning.  At anything that involved performing at the extreams of human physical ability, they performed at far less than that. Which isn't to say the human that is best at those things can't be a woman, that's on a general scale of ability.  Extreme outliers can always exist.  If you mean they can make fine support personnel, then yes, but that has nothing to do with being a warrior.

 

And take into account that in this day and age you are operating with superior materials that are lighter and optimised for ranged combat. You're not swinging a sword and shield and a gun requires much less strength to use than a longbow.

 

The gap gets higher the more you go in the past.

[phantomrachie]

Nice opinion, but no.

 

Skill is just a small side of it. There's strength ( heavier weapons, heavier armor, heavier shields ), there's speed, there's endurance.

 

Men are superior in all of those. Thus, men are better warriors.

 

It's not an opinion - there are literally 100's of examples of real life women in combat. 

 

You are using lazy stereotyping to put forward the argument that one fictional female warrior couldn't have tackled a fiction male character, when I a 5.6ft women, could with momentum, surprise and a certain technique, could tackle (and have) a stronger 6ft male. 

[Pateu]

's not an opinion - there are literally 100's of examples of real life women in combat.

 

That's because soldiers shoot guns. They don't fire bows or swing axes. 

 

Even then, men are still superior. How many women in the SEAL Navy or Spetsnaz do you know?

 

 

 

when I a 5.6ft women, could with momentum, surprise and a certain technique, could tackle (and have) a stronger 6ft male.

 

'' I did this ( and have no proof of it ) so it must be true!!!1 ''

 

Doesn't work that way. When you tackled someone they probably had their back turned at you. Hawke was right in front of Aveline.

[Battlebloodmage]

I don't care either ways regarding who I kill in the game, but this thread is several months too late for that, but I guess if the developers want to, they could put it in DA4. When most of the powerful leaders in Thedas is females, you can't argue that females lack representation in DA world. I care more about racial representation in this game. I'm tired of seeing just white, male or female. Since we're visiting other regions outside of "England", I hope to see more non-white NPC. 

[Kidd]

But this is fantasy, not real life, and in the games so far women have been shown to fight a hell of a lot.

I never asked for 1:1. I'm asking for 10-20% o our enemies to be female, and roughly half of mages to be female, which I think is reasonable.

To be honest, I don't see why you're limiting yourself like that. I certainly support 1:1, even though I see no need to comb through every encounter in the game and keep a tally or anything. But in general, in my opinion, facing a woman shouldn't be more rare than facing a man unless we're fighting Qunari.

I simply don't see how it is interesting to see less women, myself.

[Pateu]

To be honest, I don't see why you're limiting yourself like that. I certainly support 1:1, even though I see no need to comb through every encounter in the game and keep a tally or anything. But in general, in my opinion, facing a woman shouldn't be more rare than facing a man unless we're fighting Qunari.

I simply don't see how it is interesting to see less women, myself.

 

It's not less interesting. It's more realistic to the setting.

 

Good story should never be affected because of political correctness.

 

I'm all for more women mages. Rogues, too.

 

But warriors and professional soldiers/knights, not so much.

[phantomrachie]

Yeah, no.  Even in the modern army (which I was in), given equal training women performed at about 80% the effectiveness of men, in anything that involved any sort of complex spatial reasoning.  At anything that involved performing at the extreams of human physical ability, they performed at far less than that. Which isn't to say the human that is best at those things can't be a woman, that's on a general scale of ability.  Extreme outliers can always exist.  If you mean they can make fine support personnel, then yes, but that has nothing to do with being a warrior.

 

wait are we talking about IRL modern armies or ancient armies that a fictional army could be based on? because those are different things.

 

http://en.wikipedia....he_medieval_era

[phantomrachie]

 

 

'' I did this ( and have no proof of it ) so it must be true!!!1 ''

 

Doesn't work that way. When you tackled someone they probably had their back turned at you. Hawke was right in front of Aveline.

 

I must have missed all the statistical data and proof you've provided

[Pateu]

I must have missed all the statistical data and proof you've provided

 

You haven't provided anything, either, so right back at you.

 

But here's a prime example of the physical differences between a man and a woman. Or, well, five.

 

[phantomrachie]

You haven't provided anything, either, so right back at you.

 

But here's a prime example of the physical differences between a man and a woman. Or, well, five.

 

 

Okay - this is going around in circles and we are derailing the thread..

 

I'm not saying men are not on average physically stronger than women.

 

I'm simply trying to point out that

• skill is important too
• it is possible for Aveline to tackle Hawke to the ground, if you consider her skill level and the fact that Aveline is clearly not average.

I have provided a link of above average women in combat in ancient times, which would support my point.

[Kidd]

It's not less interesting. It's more realistic to the setting.

I don't remember reading a lengthy explanation in The Stolen Throne about how women can't be soldiers. If anything, I read about Rowan kicking an immense load of butt, and then saw plenty of female soldiers during the battle at Ostagar in Origins right afterwards.

There's also that story about Aveline of Orlais and how she proved that women are equal to men over two hundred years ago from current time in Thedas.
 

Good story should never be affected because of political correctness.

I'll follow brother Genitivi's example since I find it to be honest. As such I'll state my bias in that, to me, political correctness is a shorter phrase for "caring about other people." It is not something that ruins anything unless taken to a ridiculous extreme (see Gaider's talk at GDC, under "So What am I Suggesting we do?").

This is, to me, certainly not such an extreme.

[javeart]

For the love of god, can a mod please shut down this thread. It is getting ridiculous. Does everything on the BSN have to erupt into an argument over race, gender, and sexuality?

 

Since we're apparently voicing our opinions on what it's ridiculous and what it's not, I'd say for me it is somebody asking for a thread to get close just because s/he is not interested in the topic. 

[Pateu]

There's also that story about Aveline of Orlais and how she proved that women are equal to men over two hundred years ago from current time in Thedas.

 

No, she proved women can fight and do so well. Aveline lost the fight and had her throat slit by the guy that beat her.

 

But again, Aveline is an exceptional woman far above the average woman, average woman which is always below the average man.

 

 

 

political correctness is a shorter phrase for "caring about other people."

 

That isn't what political correctness means. It's going out of your way just to please the minorities. Instead of going with your original plan you have to stop and think '' but won't X group be offended by it? '' and then not do it.

[javeart]

I don't remember reading a lengthy explanation in The Stolen Throne about how women can't be soldiers. If anything, I read about Rowan kicking an immense load of butt, and then saw plenty of female soldiers during the battle at Ostagar in Origins right afterwards.

There's also that story about Aveline of Orlais and how she proved that women are equal to men over two hundred years ago from current time in Thedas.
 
I'll follow brother Genitivi's example since I find it to be honest. As such I'll state my bias in that, to me, political correctness is a shorter phrase for "caring about other people." It is not something that ruins anything unless taken to a ridiculous extreme (see Gaider's talk at GDC, under "So What am I Suggesting we do?").

This is, to me, certainly not such an extreme.

 

I agree. It makes sense lore-wise and it doesn't seem to be difficult to do. I'm sure things are going to be ok, though. I might be too optimistic, but I think there's no need to worry.

[Mihura]

You haven't provided anything, either, so right back at you.

 

But here's a prime example of the physical differences between a man and a woman. Or, well, five.

 

 

http://youtu.be/DLUI6GxwNxk?t=4m30s

In a more serious note there are a lot of women in history disguised like men, that fought beside them with great success, in my country the more famous is Antónia Rodrigues, she was even made knight by the King Filipe II.

The problem here is, that there are a lot of situations like this that most people are not aware of, or they were never found. The difference between genders are not that great when you train people since a early age. Most of the people of the female gender could not even participated on military life and a lot of that is even true for modern days.

When you perceive one part of a gender weak and reinforce a life style for that, it is normal that those differences get more accentuate. Although does not mean much when all are created in the same type of environment with the same opportunities. Which does not happen at all. 

 

Since DA:O is suppose to be more equal than our world I would expect something along the 50/50, or at least a number really close to that like 60/40.

[javeart]

It's not a matter of being interested or not. I think these kinds of threads promote a toxic environment and only serve to create further rifts within the BSN community. The last thing we needs is another gender/race/sex war when there have already been a dozen or so of these in the last week alone.

 

This thread it's not toxic at all, even if some people seem to have tried their best to make it so. Best way to make sure it stays this way it's just stay on topic and respectful, IMO

[Kidd]

No, she proved women can fight and do so well. Aveline lost the fight and had her throat slit by the guy that beat her.

From memory, she lost due to cheating and was winning until said cheat. I could be misremembering the story, it's been a while since I played Origins.
 

That isn't what political correctness means. It's going out of your way just to please the minorities. Instead of going with your original plan you have to stop and think '' but won't X group be offended by it? '' and then not do it.

Iterating on something to ensure it is better enjoyed by more people, by definition, makes it enjoyable to more people. I have no special love for first drafts if a story can be improved later on, but I digress.

More importantly, I'd like to point out that it is not fair to frame the discussion as if the intent is to have BioWare bend over backwards for every minority of every kind out there with some kind of massive check list. That's reductio ad absurdum as Gaider mentions during his talk.

We're speaking roughly half the population of our planet, and from what I can tell roughly half the population of Thedas as well. Women aren't a minority.

[Pateu]

http://youtu.be/DLUI6GxwNxk?t=4m30s

 

don't even get me started on that atrocity.

 

In a more serious note there are a lot of women in history disguised like men, that fought beside them with great success, in my country the more famous is Antónia Rodrigues, she was even made knight by the King Filipe II.

 

Again, those women were not average. They were exceptional. 

 

 The difference between genders are not that great when you train people since a early age.

 

Sorry, but that's bullshit.

 

Look at any competition- athletes, tennis players, football players, weightlifters- men are -ALWAYS- superior. Hell, a female athlete could not make top 50 in the men's category.

[Pateu]

Iterating on something to ensuring it is better enjoyed by more people, by definition, makes it enjoyable to more people.

 

In theory.

 

But by forsaking immersion to please the minorities you tend to annoy the majority.

 

Imagine instead of waking up next to Triss in The Witcher 2, Geralt woke up next to a naked Zoltan.

 

The fans would be outraged.

[Pateu]

We're speaking roughly half the population of our planet, and from what I can tell roughly half the population of Thedas as well. Women aren't a minority. 

 

I wasn't aware 3.6 billion women play games and want Dragon Age to have more women.

 

Because that's how ridiculous what you said is.

 

Women may make up roughly 51% of the population, but the women that play games are way less than the men that do ( and before you link me that stupid study which treats mobile apps as games... don't. Pretty sure it's made in the US, too. )

[Battlebloodmage]

In theory.

 

But by forsaking immersion to please the minorities you tend to annoy the majority.

 

Imagine instead of waking up next to Triss in The Witcher 2, Geralt woke up next to a naked Zoltan.

 

The fans would be outraged.

Can I change mine to Iorveth?

[cronshaw]

I wasn't aware 3.6 billion women play games and want Dragon Age to have more women.

 

Because that's how ridiculous what you said is.

 

Women may make up roughly 51% of the population, but the women that play games are way less than the men that do ( and before you link me that stupid study which treats mobile apps as games... don't. Pretty sure it's made in the US, too. )

Your "data" assumes all men feel the same way you do.

I'd bet they don't