623 réponses à ce sujet

[Illyria God King of the Primordium]

God, no. I don't want to play a game where stats have anything to do with how a character's body looks. I am all for sliders. In fact, I would love to see sliders in every game where customization is an option, but I don't want my character creation to be penalized because I chose a sword over a staff. Just, please no.

 

 

How is it a penalty for your character's appearance to reflect their skills and abilities?  I'd like to see Muscle Wizards too (mostly so I can cast FIST), but in the universe of Thedas this seems unlikely.  

[dutch_gamer]

How is it a penalty for your character's appearance to reflect their skills and abilities?  I'd like to see Muscle Wizards too (mostly so I can cast FIST), but in the universe of Thedas this seems unlikely.

It would be a penalty for someone who wants to play a warrior but not have his/her character look buff.

[KBomb]

How is it a penalty for your character's appearance to reflect their skills and abilities?  I'd like to see Muscle Wizards too (mostly so I can cast FIST), but in the universe of Thedas this seems unlikely.  

Because I don't want a muscular character. It's as simple as that. I understand the reverse to that, as well--that you don't want a skinny character. Which is why I support sliders. Whether it be a mage or a warrior, I don't want her to have huge arms, etc. Just a preference on my part, but an important one. Like I said, I get where you're coming from, but instead of games implementing a feature where your body type is in relation to how much you think a skinny person can't lift, I would rather there be an option that can make all happy and lets one choose how they wish their body to be.

[Emileejay]

They're video games, not a podium to push your social agenda. Likewise, video games are just effing video games.  Stop taking them so freaking seriously.  You're looking at something and giving it way too much meaning.

 

Agreed. Random mooks being male or female has little bearing on changing people's opinions. Seriously, I'm not going to be saying, "Wow, now this is something! I'm stabbing a woman to death!" because NPC #368 has breasts.

 

As others have said, it's more the main players having female representation than some goon. Not only do we get our fine female compadres to give a strong woman presence, but we also have Empress Celene, who is quite formidable as well. All that really matters is those women we interact with more than 2 seconds of stabbing/shooting. If they're portrayed with accurate variety and whatnot - showing both weak and strong characters, both male and female.

 

Asking for equal female minions is, to me, asinine in comparison, and will have little to no bearing of anyone's outlook on social equality or whatever it is you're trying to push here.

[TheTurtle]

How is it a penalty for your character's appearance to reflect their skills and abilities? I'd like to see Muscle Wizards too (mostly so I can cast FIST), but in the universe of Thedas this seems unlikely.

Getting up strength, purity and evil in Fable 2 and 3 made the female characters ugly as hell. I mean if it's done right it could be good, but some people like me like the way their characters look when created and wouldn't want that to change when.we leveled up and what not.

[Illyria God King of the Primordium]

Because I don't want a muscular character. It's as simple as that. I understand the reverse to that, as well--that you don't want a skinny character. Which is why I support sliders. Whether it be a mage or a warrior, I don't want her to have huge arms, etc. Just a preference on my part, but an important one. Like I said, I get where you're coming from, but instead of games implementing a feature where your body type is in relation to how much you think a skinny person can't lift, I would rather there be an option that can make all happy and lets one choose how they wish their body to be.

Fair nuff - maybe it could be a toggle switch then.  It's not that I don't want to play a skinny character, it's that I don't want to play one when it doesn't make sense.  dutch_gamer is talking about skinny warriors, but those never made any sense as Strength is the primary warrior characteristic and most of their abilities etc. are tied to it - thus, most warrior playthroughs will involve advancing strength a lot, but if your character stays weedy then there can be some visual dissonance.  

 

I think this was a lot of my problem with DA2 - watching my female Hawke swing around her cartoonishly large two handed sword left me with the feeling that I was stuck in an anime.  

[Chron0id]

Getting up strength, purity and evil in Fable 2 and 3 made the female characters ugly as hell. I mean if it's done right it could be good, but some people like me like the way their characters look when created and wouldn't want that to change when.we leveled up and what not.

So much this it hurts.  I ended up looking like a cross between The Hulk and Moses by the end of Fable 1.  All because of that stupid Strength stat.  I'd rather just look average for the whole game.  Not too skinny, not too beefy.  Just right.

[KaiserShep]

Didn't Bungie get in trouble when they added the female voice to spartans online and people kept picking them just so they could hear their death screams over and over?  That's probably also a thought process, that to many people might get upset by killing women.

 

Lol....really? People are idiots.

 

Anyway, changes in appearance would have to be really subtle and natural in order to really work when changing stats, especially for something like strength, and frankly, it would have to be something that you can only notice if the character is totally naked, but then this is kind of pointless anyway and is better left to the character creator. A character should not start bulking up just because of an increase in strength, because he/she is not a gym rat.

[Sekou]

As it appears we fight A LOT of demons in DAI, I'm reminded of the classic Buffy line in which she worriedly asks "Was it a boy demon?"

[Estelindis]

Ugh, it's getting a bit weird now.

I know i am a bit suicidal with this opinion, since the first one to voice it allready got screamed down.

But is this really that important an issue? Don't get me wrong i am all for more female characters in games, but the OP specifically asks for GENERIC female npcs. You know, the ones not a single person cares about. 

Ok, so apparently from what i read here DA 2 and Skyrim had an equal representation of genders with "generic rogue 2054".

I played both games. Skyrim for a rediculous amount of hours and i didn't even notice. 

Don't get me wrong it is kind of weird that this kind of thing isn't industry standart right now and i support that this should be embraced.

But i honestly I care way more about the main characters. When the main characters of the story are well represented and characterised i couldn't care less whether enemy number 3956 is male or female.

 

In my opinion, it is important to have both male and female mooks.  I think that it is unfair to men if the "disposable" generic foes that we face are all male.  I feel like it gives the message that violence against men is normal and not worthy of comment or reflection.  "They were only mooks" = "they were only men"?  

  

Of course, if there is a consistent in-world reason why only men would fight, then that's different.  It would say something about the gender roles in that world.  However, in IPs where both men and women would have reasons (and the ability) to fight, one would want to avoid sending inconsistent messages and thus represent them both.

 

Just my opinion.

[KBomb]

Fair nuff - maybe it could be a toggle switch then.  It's not that I don't want to play a skinny character, it's that I don't want to play one when it doesn't make sense.  dutch_gamer is talking about skinny warriors, but those never made any sense as Strength is the primary warrior characteristic and most of their abilities etc. are tied to it - thus, most warrior playthroughs will involve advancing strength a lot, but if your character stays weedy then there can be some visual dissonance.  

 

I think this was a lot of my problem with DA2 - watching my female Hawke swing around her cartoonishly large two handed sword left me with the feeling that I was stuck in an anime.  

I don't really want to take this off-topic, but since we are discussing representation, I'll take a chance at explaining myself. I understand that people like playing "strong" characters. I get that they want to see a woman look powerful. 

 

As a woman who is 5'1, I never get representation unless it's a small elf, a dwarf or a kid. Honestly, the closest representation to my body type in a video game is Ellie from The Last of Us, which is kind of funny and sad, depending on what side of the fence you're look at. Throw in the fact that I am also deaf-- I will never see an avatar of me in a game. I'm also okay with that. That being said, I like playing a small stature of a woman who can still kick the same amount of ass as anyone else. It gets kind of annoying to constantly look on threads concerning body types to see people say things like, "Oh, how can she be badass with her spindly arms?" or, "there is no way I can take her seriously as a warrior." I don't take offense to it really, but it can be annoying when you see threads where people who are against discrimination of female characters because they are seen as sexual stereotypes, only to discriminate against females for being "too skinny to lift a sword" or "walks like a supermodel". 

 

Anyway, at the end of the day, I am a little gal. I know that. I want to be able to feel as though I am still represented in a way, too. I do that by getting to be a willowy little warrior with spindle arms that can crack open a qunari head and be proud to do it. So, what may be visual dissonance to you--is inclusion to me. Hopefully, body sliders will become a norm in games and we can all have something we can relate to.

[Amaror]

It might not be to you, but keep in mind that any one person's issues might not be important to other people.  I'm sure I could share things I consider important that others wouldn't care about.  There's probably some things that you think are the most important that others don't think are really that important either.

 

Like James had mentioned: it's cool to share it.  It's just someone saying "This thing is something I think would be good for the game."  As long as it's not something ostensibly offensive (and I don't think it is) then fair enough.

Oh no, i don't have any problem with him voicing his opinion. 

It's just that i would rather focuss on getting a good representation of main female characters before focussing on getting a ton of generic female characters. OP still has a point , but i would just rather get more games get major female characters than this one getting more generic females. 

This is not aimed at Dragon Age in particular, since these games had a pretty good female representation in the past, but rather at the whole games industry. 

We need more good female characters. But there are very few people that are going to notice heavily how the gender representation in generic goons is. 

I most likely wouldn't write this, if the OP wouldn't have created a new thread, which would indicate that this would be some mahjor issue that needs to be adressed asap. 

To wrap this all up i just would take getting another jade over getting a billion faceless female goons any day.

[MrMrPendragon]

Even if the enemy count was overwhelmingly in favor of male NPCs, that's appropriate for the setting anyway. The important thing about isolating real sexism from the benign is that women aren't portrayed intentionally negative. IE: No Female protagonist option, No Female Companions as anything other than slutty rogues or timid mages, absence of female power representation... All those I can at least accept an argument, but not something as arbitrary as the enemy NPC ratio, especially when we know so little about the factions that populate the enemy list.

 

Right you are. Although I definitely wouldn't mind some slutty rogues in my party . Let's also have a jacked teenage-dream pretty boy so everything's fair.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Oh no, i don't have any problem with him voicing his opinion. 

It's just that i would rather focuss on getting a good representation of main female characters before focussing on getting a ton of generic female characters. OP still has a point , but i would just rather get more games get major female characters than this one getting more generic females. 

This is not aimed at Dragon Age in particular, since these games had a pretty good female representation in the past, but rather at the whole games industry. 

We need more good female characters. But there are very few people that are going to notice heavily how the gender representation in generic goons is. 

I most likely wouldn't write this, if the OP wouldn't have created a new thread, which would indicate that this would be some mahjor issue that needs to be adressed asap. 

To wrap this all up i just would take getting another jade over getting a billion faceless female goons any day.

Nothing wrong with a bit of the continual improvement approach though. Given the resources, there's a lot to be said for poking the quiet, unassuming little areas of your project with a pointy stick to see how you can make them a bit better, it all adds up.

[Illyria God King of the Primordium]

I don't really want to take this off-topic, but since we are discussing representation, I'll take a chance at explaining myself. I understand that people like playing "strong" characters. I get that they want to see a woman look powerful. 

 

As a woman who is 5'1, I never get representation unless it's a small elf, a dwarf or a kid. Honestly, the closest representation to my body type in a video game is Ellie from The Last of Us, which is kind of funny and sad, depending on what side of the fence you're look at. Throw in the fact that I am also deaf-- I will never see an avatar of me in a game. I'm also okay with that. That being said, I like playing a small stature of a woman who can still kick the same amount of ass as anyone else. It gets kind of annoying to constantly look on threads concerning body types to see people say things like, "Oh, how can she be badass with her spindly arms?" or, "there is no way I can take her seriously as a warrior." I don't take offense to it really, but it can be annoying when you see threads where people who are against discrimination of female characters because they are seen as sexual stereotypes, only to discriminate against females for being "too skinny to lift a sword" or "walks like a supermodel". 

 

Anyway, at the end of the day, I am a little gal. I know that. I want to be able to feel as though I am still represented in a way, too. I do that by getting to be a willowy little warrior with spindle arms that can crack open a qunari head and be proud to do it. So, what may be visual dissonance to you--is inclusion to me. Hopefully, body sliders will become a norm in games and we can all have something we can relate to.

Good point.  Sorry if I offended you.  As a short(ish) person myself, I sympathise with your plight.  And while it would be lovely to see a skinny bastard with glasses and foofy dumb eighties hair kick ass with a giant two handed sword in games, or movies, or literature I wouldn't be able to take it seriously.  I do re-enactment work, mostly Wars of the Roses stuff, and I know just how much muscle it takes to swing those weapons around - it doesn't make character sense.  Maybe if they used a different fighting style, something based around being quick, or fast, or straight up thinking smarter than the opponent I'd believe it, but in DA combat that mostly seems to consist of people whalin on each other with their weapons unless you use abilities.  

 

But as I said, I see where you're coming from, and the sliders seem to be a good way to solve both of our problems.  

 

Also, it isn't JUST women I have a problem with not being muscular enough to do stuff in comics etc. - it's just that generally the men get dumbstupid levels of musculature anyway, so then I have to make the reverse complaint (square cube law, their bones should shatter, etc.).  

[Shadow Fox]

Right you are. Although I definitely wouldn't mind some slutty rogues in my party . Let's also have a jacked teenage-dream pretty boy so everything's fair.

Isabella's got your back.

[KBomb]

Good point.  Sorry if I offended you.  As a short(ish) person myself, I sympathise with your plight.  And while it would be lovely to see a skinny bastard with glasses and foofy dumb eighties hair kick ass with a giant two handed sword in games, or movies, or literature I wouldn't be able to take it seriously.  I do re-enactment work, mostly Wars of the Roses stuff, and I know just how much muscle it takes to swing those weapons around - it doesn't make character sense.  Maybe if they used a different fighting style, something based around being quick, or fast, or straight up thinking smarter than the opponent I'd believe it, but in DA combat that mostly seems to consist of people whalin on each other with their weapons unless you use abilities.  

 

But as I said, I see where you're coming from, and the sliders seem to be a good way to solve both of our problems.  

 

Also, it isn't JUST women I have a problem with not being muscular enough to do stuff in comics etc. - it's just that generally the men get dumbstupid levels of musculature anyway, so then I have to make the reverse complaint (square cube law, their bones should shatter, etc.).  

Oh no, you didn't offend me. I went backpacking in the Blue Ridge Mountains recently and I conditioned myself about a month prior to the trip. My pack weighed around 35lbs, which is a pretty heavy constant to be carrying around, uphill and over rough terrain and people were constantly asking me if I needed help. I didn't. I know it isn't the same as swinging a sword and fighting, but small doesn't always equal weak. 

 

In Saints Row, there is a slider and when I play male characters, I always make them muscular, but only because if you make them skinny, their heads still look enormous. But yes, sliders would solve all. Except for those who want something more than body issues, though I do believe Bioware is good about keeping up. Meeting everyone's preference, though? Not sure they have enough staff. 

[Illyria God King of the Primordium]

Oh no, you didn't offend me. I went backpacking in the Blue Ridge Mountains recently and I conditioned myself about a month prior to the trip. My pack weighed around 35lbs, which is a pretty heavy constant to be carrying around, uphill and over rough terrain and people were constantly asking me if I needed help. I didn't. I know it isn't the same as swinging a sword and fighting, but small doesn't always equal weak. 

 

In Saints Row, there is a slider and when I play male characters, I always make them muscular, but only because if you make them skinny, their heads still look enormous. But yes, sliders would solve all. Except for those who want something more than body issues, though I do believe Bioware is good about keeping up. Meeting everyone's preference, though? Not sure they have enough staff. 

Yeah, most solutions to problems presented in the forums do seem to require more effort.  We probably only have ourselves to blame for the release date push back....

[andy6915]

I don't really want to take this off-topic, but since we are discussing representation, I'll take a chance at explaining myself. I understand that people like playing "strong" characters. I get that they want to see a woman look powerful. 

 

As a woman who is 5'1, I never get representation unless it's a small elf, a dwarf or a kid. Honestly, the closest representation to my body type in a video game is Ellie from The Last of Us, which is kind of funny and sad, depending on what side of the fence you're look at. Throw in the fact that I am also deaf-- I will never see an avatar of me in a game. I'm also okay with that. That being said, I like playing a small stature of a woman who can still kick the same amount of ass as anyone else. It gets kind of annoying to constantly look on threads concerning body types to see people say things like, "Oh, how can she be badass with her spindly arms?" or, "there is no way I can take her seriously as a warrior." I don't take offense to it really, but it can be annoying when you see threads where people who are against discrimination of female characters because they are seen as sexual stereotypes, only to discriminate against females for being "too skinny to lift a sword" or "walks like a supermodel". 

 

Anyway, at the end of the day, I am a little gal. I know that. I want to be able to feel as though I am still represented in a way, too. I do that by getting to be a willowy little warrior with spindle arms that can crack open a qunari head and be proud to do it. So, what may be visual dissonance to you--is inclusion to me. Hopefully, body sliders will become a norm in games and we can all have something we can relate to.

 

2 things. One, how deaf? Can't hear any music or listen to words, or can hear but at greatly reduced volume?
 

Second one, how do you think I feel. I'm a 5'1 male. And disclaimer, no I'm not a midget or real dwarf either seeing as my proportions are normal. I just about never ever ever see my height and sex combination in games. Last time I did was Dragon's Dogma, that is the only game I can think of where I can make a character that is a male who is that short.

[A.Kazama]

Just waiting on the mods....

 

This topic can be pretty sensitive, when it comes to having female fighters or enemies.

 

On one side you got the even share, but some feminists will go: "beating up women is bad and you are creating a woman killing simulator!" and the other half is "UNDER REPRESENTATION!"

 

I don't think bioware has made any mistakes in representing there women in DAI so far, and as things go the women like Sera, Cass and Viv seem pretty decent. (More so IMO as they are all very different types of people)

 

I don't think there's really a point on arguing the topic as the reasons for supporting or not supporting both have there ups and downs.

[slimgrin]

Bioware has flung female combatants into the mix quite liberally, at least in Mass Effect. Not so much in Dragon Age. DA still needs to learn a few things from Mass Effect, the elder franchise.

[KBomb]

2 things. One, how deaf? Can't hear any music or listen to words, or can hear but at greatly reduced volume?

Second one, how do you think I feel. I'm a 5'1 male. And disclaimer, no I'm not a midget or real dwarf either seeing as my proportions are normal. I just about never ever ever see my height and sex combination in games. Last time I did was Dragon's Dogma, that is the only game I can think of where I can make a character that is a male who is that short.

Without getting technical: I am profound in one ear and severe in the other. I can hear very slightly with a hearing aid, but only when it's in a very quiet atmosphere. It's useless, otherwise. I rely mostly on speech reading and sign language-- which makes me uncomfortable, but lip reading makes others uncomfortable. A weird situation.

I have a male co-worker who is only around 5'3. I have to say he probably has it harder. I at least get the "cute" comments while he gets called a hobbit and such. It annoys him and I can see why.

There aren't many games with height sliders. Wonder why that is?

[JadePrince]

FYI, OP, the writers DO care about your concerns.

 

At Gaider's personal panel (the one with just him on it) at GaymerX, I asked how the team handles and combats the idea of straight as default when populating the world (because I care about there being non-straight NPCs who exist in Thedas outside my party). David branched off of that topic to talk about how they work hard to address and mix up the 'default' with regards to gender.

 

He specifically mentioned when writers come back with quest storylines written out, they have had instances where the casting director has pointed out to them that almost all the voices needed were men, and maybe some of these minor characters could be women instead without affecting the story. David said that was eye-opening for them and they did go back and fix it, changing some of those roles to female roles instead. He also mentioned that they pay attention to groups of soldiers/templars/etc that the player will encounter, and they do their best to make sure there are always at least a few women in these groups instead of defaulting them all to men. 

 

So, don't let other people make you feel bad for starting this thread. This is exactly the kind of thing that the developers care about and are making efforts to be conscious of. Because THEY know it's important to challenge the idea of male as the default.

[andy6915]

Without getting technical: I am profound in one ear and severe in the other. I can hear very slightly with a hearing aid, but only when it's in a very quiet atmosphere. It's useless, otherwise. I rely mostly on speech reading and sign language-- which makes me uncomfortable, but lip reading makes others uncomfortable. A weird situation.

I have a male co-worker who is only around 5'3. I have to say he probably has it harder. I at least get the "cute" comments while he gets called a hobbit and such. It annoys him and I can see why.

There aren't many games with height sliders. Wonder why that is?

 

Harsh. Truly. Music and sound effects add so much to games, to miss out... I want to say sorry, but people who say sorry in these situations annoy me. It's always felt a little condescending to me when someone does it, so I won't. So I'll just say that you have my sympathies, and not in the sarcastic way.

 

Anyway, I've thankfully never been called a hobbit before.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

This is a non issue for me.

 

NPCs that serve as enemies to be killed need to be politically correct or to adhere to any form of social justice agenda. 

 

Yes I am a man and I really have no issue with the fact that men are overwhelmingly used as generic enemies in video games. For the simple reason that video games, like movies, are a form of entertainment. This sort of stuff doesn't matter. 

 

It doesn't and shouldn't matter to people capable of distinguishing reality from fiction 

 

A person who is capable of playing a game like Dragon Age should be sufficiently matured in terms of mentality to understand that this does not mean that video game developers are undermining women by not using them as enemies or are engaged in a massive man-hating agenda since they use primarily men. It is just a way to save resource expenditures and having sexually representative generic enemies does not exactly make a RPG better. 

 

Video games are an interactive entertainment where every NPC is there to fulfill a role. The role of a generic enemy is to be an XP giver and to challenge the player, not to give some story depth or character depth of any form. 

 

It gets even more interesting when we look at RPG games and see what is important and what makes them good. Good story, good combat, good followers and list of exciting places and dungeons to visit. 

 

Having a gender representative generic enemy is not on that list. I do not recall any game that have become better by doing it. It is a waste of resources.