623 réponses à ce sujet

[Star fury]

Killing of women is not a gentlemanly thing.

[SardaukarElite]

Mooks are NPCs, and NPCs are a vital part of the world. The kinds of NPCs we meet tells us about the world, if we don't encounter fighting women as NPCs then it appears the world doesn't have any.

 

Women have always fought, if the writers want to build a realistic world then the world needs to reflect that. Either allow women to join armies and show that, or show women finding other ways to fight and contribute. They apparently went with the former so there needs to be female soldier NPCs.

 

 

They're video games, not a podium to push your social agenda. Likewise, video games are just effing video games.  Stop taking them so freaking seriously.  You're looking at something and giving it way too much meaning.

 

They're just games. They're just a way people discuss the world they live in. They're just a way people can gain new perspectives. They're just a way to inspire people to go out and actually achieve something with their lives.

[BabyFratelli]

Killing of women is not a gentlemanly thing.

 

Killing in general is not a very gentlemanly thing. 

 

If Thedas were the kind of world where women couldn't become soldiers, I'd be more inclined to agree that it makes sense for all the humans you fight to be men, but given that's not the case, I don't see why we wouldn't be killing men and women left and right.

 

As far as I can remember, I killed my fair share of both genders in the other two games, but that could be my own misconception. Regardless, it's one of the smaller things I can over look.

[Samahl]

To all the men saying that it shouldn't matter: would you be care if all the generic enemies were, by default, female rather than male?

[hexaligned]

To all the men saying that it shouldn't matter: would you be care if all the generic enemies were, by default, female rather than male?

No.

[slimgrin]

This is a non issue for me.

 

 

Having a gender representative generic enemy is not on that list. I do not recall any game that have become better by doing it. It is a waste of resources. 

 

\What the hell is a gender representative generic enemy? I must have missed that class.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

To all the men saying that it shouldn't matter: would you be care if all the generic enemies were, by default, female rather than male?

 

Nope. 

 

The reason for this is simple. It has got nothing to do with me having a penis or a vagina. It has everything to do with making a good RPG.

 

Having default generic enemies that is proportional or one-sided in terms of the sexes does not make Dragon Age a better game.

 

Having an all male or an all female or a sexually disproportional mix or a  sexually proportional mix of generic enemies does not in any way improve the story, the plot, your followers, the combat and the customizablity the player gets. It practically does nothing to improve the gaming experience. 

 

I would rather have immersive enemies as opposed to sexually proportional enemies. I would rather the budget be spent making generic enemies have better AIs, coordinate with each other better as a team, use potions, have immersive combat behaviors such as either yielding to the player or going into a rage as their health goes below a threshold (fight or flight behavior), use tempered gear and some even using enchanted items. I would rather the budget be spent on making some enemies like animals have believable behaviors. 

 

Games have limited budget, not unlimited resources. I would rather have a game that focuses on that as opposed to what the OP suggests. 

 

I suppose this opinion might be unpopular but I prefer to focus on the stuff that matters in a game such as a story that is cohesive, enemies that challenge me and followers that are good and interactive. I play video games to entertain myself and challenge myself, not to establish a connection or get some form of validation or feel represented in it. 

 

As such, the whole proportion thing is a non issue to someone like me, as I stated in a previous post. 

[JadePrince]

You can argue about it not being important to you to have a diversity of genders in the NPCs of Thedas, but the fact is, the developers do think it's important and according to Gaider, they are making specific efforts to ensure that the soldiers and other NPCs (which I'm sure includes enemies) you run across are not all men. Sooo... *shrug* 

[leaguer of one]

In real life? No.

In a game which can reveal a lot about the social attitudes in our society and of the company making the game? Hell yes!

Even in a game it's no. Thedus is not a parody of our society. It is it's own world with it's own issues and problems.

[KBomb]

You can argue about it not being important to you to have a diversity of genders in the NPCs of Thedas, but the fact is, the developers do think it's important and according to Gaider, they are making specific efforts to ensure that the soldiers and other NPCs (which I'm sure includes enemies) you run across are not all men. Sooo... *shrug* 

Well, to be fair, people can still be of the opinion it isn't important. I am glad the developers listen and work hard to make sure things are represented as fair as possible, but I don't think it's(equal gender enemies) an important issue either. 

 

Default male doesn't really bother me, at all. Whether it's marketing, or who shows up first in default CC, etc. I really don't think it's a big deal. 

 

I do understand it's a pretty sticky topic with lots of passion behind it and it means a lot to some and while I do think equality is a wonderful addition to any media, I don't find it necessary. I also respect that just because an issue isn't important to me, it won't be important to someone else. It's just how I feel. 

[leaguer of one]

Nope. 

^tHIS

[Magdalena11]

Killing of women is not a gentlemanly thing.

Good thing I'm no lady.  Prepare to die.

[Lethys1]

The reason this thread annoys me is because it's like concentrating on a single spec of dust instead of the nearby large pile of dirt.  If you cleaned the pile, you wouldn't need to pick up the individual specs.  This is the kind of change that would fall into place once other, larger and more comprehensive social changes are made.  It wouldn't need to even be thought of, which is how you'd think people would want these kinds of minutiae to be.

 

You might respond by saying "but I'm cleaning up this mess."  One spec at a time is a bit of a foolish way to clean, don't you think?  I understand the intentions, but you should realize that these kinds of inane requests discredit the idea that a contemporary feminist movement should even exist.  People say "oh, so THIS is what feminists complain about?" without maybe knowing or agreeing with the more general and main ideas.  And the ignorant people are the ones you want to convince, so they matter most.  I'd have a hard time saying to them this isn't a ridiculous thread, because I even think it is.  

 

This is not an apples for apples comparison by any stretch, but Martin Luther King Jr. wouldn't have concerned himself with the portrayal of black people in one particular movie during his life, and he probably didn't care about the portrayal in movies all that much compared to what else was going on because he had priorities.  Women should be concerned with birth control, contraception access, wage equality, etc.  The equality of women hardly lives and dies with whether or not I kill an equal amount of men and women in a video game which includes dragons and magic.  Those other issues are the clear problems that have large implications.  Women should also be far more concerned with the way women are treated in places like the Middle East and Africa.  Rarely do I see women talk about other women in other countries.

 

You might say, well this is the forum for this game, and not a forum for feminism (though it toes the line often).  I'd say yes, but feminism is all encompassing as a movement, and as such all things that could be seen as feminism should be carried out in a manner which is consistent with the movement as a whole.  In other words, complaining about this here even though it's the appropriate place to mention it will lead to people going elsewhere and saying "feminists complain about stupid things like not enough female random mobs in games."  That, again, does a disservice to the entire movement because it makes it seem like you're running out of issues, or that your priorities are so far out of whack that your opinions in general should be ignored.  This is not how I see this, but this is inevitably how people view feminism.  Plenty of smart people don't like feminists for this kind of reason.

 

The reason you know this issue is unimportant is because if every current women's issue (other than this one) were resolved in a way that satisfied feminists, and yet the ratio of male to female generic enemies in this game were 5:1, I doubt anyone would care.  And lastly, if you want a game with women in it, go make a game.  You have the ability to do this if you really want to do it.  I don't agree with this idea that companies should shoehorn equality into their artistic visions simply for equality's sake.  If anything, that fosters a brand of paternalism which is far more offensive than anything.  If I were a woman, I would hate that there was the inclusion of women simply because we had to check the "women" box on the list, versus naturally putting women in.  

 

Theoretically, if BioWare for whatever reason wanted mostly male generic enemies, that is their right, and I don't view that as inherently sexist in any way.  I really want to support the feminist movement, but wow do so many feminists get caught up in trivialities and speak with an implied sense of moral superiority.  It ruins it for the other, intelligent feminists who have good points of view and nonetheless get swept underneath the all-too-often correct stereotyping feminists can receive. The word feminist shouldn't have the connotation it has in an ideal world, but I can't say it hasn't earned that reputation.

 

And of course, let's not ignore the reality that the medieval setting upon which fantasy is based saw very few female warriors.  I know that BioWare created their own world with mostly gender equality, but the real world example upon which this world is based sets the tone for our perceptions of what would in this context be called normal.  That is why I would definitely notice if there were, say, far more women than men, and comment that it was strange, but not for the reverse of that.  That's just history, not some other kind of prejudice.

[Eveangaline]

This is not an apples for apples comparison by any stretch, but Martin Luther King Jr. wouldn't have concerned himself with the portrayal of black people in one particular movie during his life, and he probably didn't care about the portrayal in movies all that much compared to what else was going on because he had priorities.

 

http://www.npr.org/2...n-MLK-Encounter

 

Martin Luther King Jr. talked Nichelle Nichols into keeping a job she had quit because he thought it was important that black people be shown on TV and told her that her one role in one show was so important.

[Samahl]

And why are you, as a man, an authority on what women should "focus"  on (as if people can't pay attention to more than one issue at a time)?

[DaySeeker]

I don't see this as ever having been a problem in DA games- especially DA2 which had plenty of human female enemies.  As far as creatures are concerned who is to say which is male/ female or asexual?  You can call them whatever you like.  Dragon Age and Bioware are the wrong places to bring up gender inequality IMO they have been way beyond other companies who put bows and bikini breastplates on their women to let you know they are available sexually to men.  Bioware has had women in a variety of roles in their games. 

[Fredward]

Look guys, this is pretty simple. Even without bringing real world social issues into it. Thedas is a largely equal society with men and women being equally distributed in most spheres, except for religion where women dominate. Yet this equal distribution does not include enemies? Why is that? That doesn't make any sense. Are women naturally more good? More successful so as not to have to become criminals? What's the problem? It's a case of real world issues translating into the setting on an almost subconscious level via the devs, men are the norm so they make mistakes that are inconsistent with the setting and lore. The fact that the issues matches up with real life social issues is just a happy [or unhappy depending on your PoV] coincidence.

 

As for the people saying that this is a non-issue and all the silly feminists should go focus on stuff that matters... There's a lot of murder in the world. A lot of war. Torture. Rape. Yet people still get fined for littering, get locked up for shoplifting or for using recreational drugs. Should we just put a stop to these arrestations until we've completely made sure there will never again be another murder? No, because that is toxically stupid. When you see a problem [no matter how perceivably miniscule] you do what you can to deal with it, you don't go on your merry way and forget it ever happened. Especially when a lot of little problems contribute to a BIG problem. Eventually we might live in a world with perfect equality when it comes to the 'big' issues but seeing as how that's still decades or even centuries away right now bringing it up as a 'point' is basically doing the argumentative equivalent of 'shut up, your problems aren't important to me.' Which isn't a surprise given how parochial people get when problems don't effect them directly but it's hardly logical.

 

And for the guys saying this wouldn't be a problem for them, you're really not entitled to make that judgement until you've spent a few decades/grew up in a society where you weren't the default identity.

[DaySeeker]

This has not been a problem in Dragon Age games.  It is a made up issue.  It may be important, but it's not an issue for this game, if one believes it will follow the precedent of other DA games.  

 

If guys can not make that judgement, then girls can't make that judgement for all of womanhood.  Why do we have to pick sides here and fight about it?

[SardaukarElite]

In other words, complaining about this here even though it's the appropriate place to mention it will lead to people going elsewhere and saying "feminists complain about stupid things like not enough female random mobs in games."  That, again, does a disservice to the entire movement because it makes it seem like you're running out of issues, or that your priorities are so far out of whack that your opinions in general should be ignored.  This is not how I see this, but this is inevitably how people view feminism. 

 

 

The issue is representation, enemies are part of representation. Our culture often ignores women doing important things, in particular it ignores women doing things in war. A game can challenge that with main characters who are women doing things and minor characters who are women doing things.

 

 

I don't see this as ever having been a problem in DA games- especially DA2 which had plenty of human female enemies.  As far as creatures are concerned who is to say which is male/ female or asexual?  You can call them whatever you like.  Dragon Age and Bioware are the wrong places to bring up gender inequality IMO they have been way beyond other companies who put bows and bikini breastplates on their women to let you know they are available sexually to men.  Bioware has had women in a variety of roles in their games. 

 

The concern was raised after viewing gameplay from Inquisition though. Gender representation doesn't entrench itself once achieved, it needs to be maintained. Likewise BioWare being better than most doesn't put them above all criticism.

 

 

So you still won't see an even distribution of hookers in a brothel or grunts on the battlefield.

 

So men mostly fight, and women are mostly there to have sex with? Great.

[Eveangaline]

This has not been a problem in Dragon Age games.  It is a made up issue.  It may be important, but it's not an issue for this game, if one believes it will follow the precedent of other DA games.  

 

If guys can not make that judgement, then girls can't make that judgement for all of womanhood.  Why do we have to pick sides here and fight about it?

 

We don't. OP was just asking if it would be the same as the last few games because from what we've seen so far it isn't, and people jumped on them. It's pretty much just a gently asked about good natured request that's already been answered in other threads that yes they're gonna try and keep a good number of the mooks as ladies.

 

But for some reason people keep replying as if the OP made some huge demand and it isn't already settled and this is the perfect place to launch into all their political opinions?

 

Honestly a mod will probably lock it up soon. It's a question that was gently asked and was answered.

 

I really can't see why the people who keep saying they don't care and it's not a big deal keep arguing with the OP. I mean if they don't care what gender the mooks are why would they care if someone asks for some not tiny percentage are women? If you don't care..stop loudly talking about it.

 

But it's pretty much devolved into trolls and people wanting the chance to yell about someone asking for something they claim to not care about but will write huge posts explaining why it shouldn't happen. So it's the kind of thread to be avoided now unless a mod just cleans it out instead of locking. I'm definitely out until a mod comes one way or another.

[KBomb]

The issue is representation, enemies are part of representation. Our culture often ignores women doing important things, in particular it ignores women doing things in war. A game can challenge that with main characters who are women doing things and minor characters who are women doing things.



The concern was raised after viewing gameplay from Inquisition though. Gender representation doesn't entrench itself once achieved, it needs to be maintained. Likewise BioWare being better than most doesn't put them above all criticism.



So men mostly fight, and women are mostly there to have sex with? Great.

If the question was based off what has been seen in DA:I thus far, then I would say it's a pretty baseless question, considering we haven't even scratched the surface of what the game has and doesn't have.

[Rane7685]

And why are you, as a man, an authority on what women should "focus"  on (as if people can't pay attention to more than one issue at a time)?

He (presumably he) isnt an authority on what women should focus on. That said he can hear your view, disagree with it, express frustration with it and say what he would think are better issues to focus on and why. You are of course free to ignore and disregard that advice for whatever reason you wish. And so on ad infinitum (or until a mod locks the thread lol)

[Samahl]

He (presumably he) isnt an authority on what women should focus on. That said he can hear your view, disagree with it, express frustration with it and say what he would think are better issues to focus on and why. You are of course free to ignore and disregard that advice for whatever reason you wish. And so on ad infinitum (or until a mod locks the thread lol)

 

He phrased it as an assertion of fact, not an opinion.