623 réponses à ce sujet

[SardaukarElite]

You can dress it up that way if you want, but what I said reflects how our own culture still is. It's not the most horrible thing in the world if Thedas only manages to match our modern sensibilities rather than some postmodern egalitarian paradise.

 

Yeah, the discussion has been irritating so far, I was abrupt. Sorry.

 

The thing is, if you slant your gender ratios that way then you're reinforcing the established representation we have in all our stories. Unless you're commenting on how things are like this somewhere I think it's problematic.

 

 

If the question was based off what has been seen in DA:I thus far, then I would say it's a pretty baseless question, considering we haven't even scratched the surface of what the game has and doesn't have.

 

It's something ManchesterUnitedFan1 was concerned about from what they've seen so far. If it's not the case then they can be corrected by a developer or someone with evidence to the contrary. I thought this was how a game forum was supposed to function before release.

 

The conversation started with a question not an accusation.

[BabyFratelli]

*snip*

 

And of course, let's not ignore the reality that the medieval setting upon which fantasy is based saw very few female warriors.  I know that BioWare created their own world with mostly gender equality, but the real world example upon which this world is based sets the tone for our perceptions of what would in this context be called normal.  That is why I would definitely notice if there were, say, far more women than men, and comment that it was strange, but not for the reverse of that.  That's just history, not some other kind of prejudice.

 

Actual female here who would consider herself a feminist.

 

While I don't disagree with everything you've said, I do think that you're putting words into the mouth of a movement that are inaccurate (and also into the mouth of an extremely important historical figure, who is known for actively encouraging Nichelle Nichols to keep her roll as it was, and still is, a very important one). Your heart is in the right place, but representation of all kinds is hugely important to feminists, and while it may not be the most pressing issue compared to others, it still is one. Discussing it civilly in the appropriate place should not be a disservice, and if it is, then the people making those assumptions are likely letting themselves be misguided based on limited perceptions - which while it's sad, in the long run is unavoidable and not something I'd concern myself with.

 

Besides that, your final point is sort of self-negating. Thedas is not the real world. Real world history is has nothing to do with it. Thedas is a fantasy world in which women and men, while still treated differently here and there, are still considered to be equal.

 

So the question becomes, why is it that in a fantasy world where men and women are socially, politically and economically equal, are the majority of the NPC character foot soldiers who you fight, men? (Excluding, of course, the Qun and it's followers)

[Rane7685]

He phrased it as an assertion of fact, not an opinion.

 

Perhaps and to the extent that he said as much he would be very wrong. It is an opinion disguised as fact. I couldnt be bothered reading the whole scrawl but the gist I got from it was "This upsets me because.... People should focus on this because... People who think otherwise are wrong because...". No matter how much that is asserted as fact it remains nonetheless an opinion about facts

[KBomb]

It's something ManchesterUnitedFan1 was concerned about from what they've seen so far. If it's not the case then they can be corrected by a developer or someone with evidence to the contrary. I thought this was how a game forum was supposed to function before release.

The conversation started with a question not an accusation.

Not every thread is going to be filled with people who agree with the OP. They have every right to disagree and voice an opinion, as long as it is respectful, of course.

This is obviously important to the OP, but not everyone thinks so and I see nothing wrong with that. She is certainly entitled to have concerns, but we've seen how many enemies that are human? Barely any in the scheme of things.

[JadePrince]

Not every thread is going to be filled with people who agree with the OP. They have every right to disagree and voice an opinion, as long as it is respectful, of course.

This is obviously important to the OP, but not everyone thinks so and I see nothing wrong with that. She is certainly entitled to have concerns, but we've seen how many enemies that are human? Barely any in the scheme of things.

 

No, of course not, but it's sort of disheartening when an OP makes a post expressing concern about a part of the game and a bunch of people pile on him/her and insist that it's not a real problem, that it's not important, and she/he should stop worrying, or that he/she should worry about larger problems instead (???). You can say "I don't think you have to worry" without also implying "because you're worrying about a thing that's not important to all of us." It's clearly important to some people. And that's what these forums are for (though the feedback/suggestions section may have been a better place for this thread, I understand that they probably posted it here because it was relating directly to recent gameplay footage -- aka 'Scuttlebutt').

 

I just came in here to say "I don't think you have to worry, because I heard direct from a developer's mouth that this is an issue they're aware of and are actively working to make sure that gender diversity in NPCs doesn't get overlooked."

 

So, until a mod comes back to clear up some of the clutter, that's the last I'mma say about this. 

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

FYI, OP, the writers DO care about your concerns.
 
At Gaider's personal panel (the one with just him on it) at GaymerX, I asked how the team handles and combats the idea of straight as default when populating the world (because I care about there being non-straight NPCs who exist in Thedas outside my party). David branched off of that topic to talk about how they work hard to address and mix up the 'default' with regards to gender.
 
He specifically mentioned when writers come back with quest storylines written out, they have had instances where the casting director has pointed out to them that almost all the voices needed were men, and maybe some of these minor characters could be women instead without affecting the story. David said that was eye-opening for them and they did go back and fix it, changing some of those roles to female roles instead. He also mentioned that they pay attention to groups of soldiers/templars/etc that the player will encounter, and they do their best to make sure there are always at least a few women in these groups instead of defaulting them all to men. 
 
So, don't let other people make you feel bad for starting this thread. This is exactly the kind of thing that the developers care about and are making efforts to be conscious of. Because THEY know it's important to challenge the idea of male as the default.

Thanks a lot for this info, great to know

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Killing of women is not a gentlemanly thing.

I assume you're joking

[Pateu]

 I mean, they're awesome, they're not 'females-aren't-worth-the-resources' Ubisoft.

 

Dude, the point of assassins is they don't stand out.

 

A woman in the 1500s with a sword, crossbow and dagger on her belt as well as a suit of armor STANDS OUT.

[BabyFratelli]

Dude, the point of assassins is they don't stand out.

 

A woman in the 1500s with a sword, crossbow and dagger on her belt as well as a suit of armor STANDS OUT.

 

As much as I'd love to get into an argument over this with you, here really isn't the place to start this debate.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

This has not been a problem in Dragon Age games.  It is a made up issue.  It may be important, but it's not an issue for this game, if one believes it will follow the precedent of other DA games.  
 
If guys can not make that judgement, then girls can't make that judgement for all of womanhood.  Why do we have to pick sides here and fight about it?

They clearly can make thy judgement as I am male. That's not the point she was trying to make.

And your right it probably will follow precious games. However there is a chance it won't, hence I wanted to ask just to make sure.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

I'd prefer to justify it as Thedas is a land of equal aptitude and a decent opportunity to pursue most fields regardless of gender, but culture still distributes the genders into different roles on a macro scale fairly unevenly. So you still won't see an even distribution of hookers in a brothel or grunts on the battlefield.

That argument doesn't work when in dragon age you DO see equal numbers of male and female hookers in brothels.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Double post, ignore.

[Killdren88]

Before I asked I just want state once more that I am all for equality and equal rights of all gender and orientation. I simply needed to state this so no one jumps the gun...Anyway..

 

Hypothetical question. So if someone wanted to create a fantasy world and setting. Is it a required must that they have Gender equality and full tolerance of all sexual orientations?

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Dude, the point of assassins is they don't stand out.
 
A woman in the 1500s with a sword, crossbow and dagger on her belt as well as a suit of armor STANDS OUT.

But we know there are lots of female assassins in the game universe, so that argument doesn't at all work.

In brotherhood there are as many women you can recruit as men.

In Black Flag around half of the assassin faction is female.

And your pout makes no sense. We are the only person with weapons in the crowds we hide. That would make us Stan out regardless of gender.

The crowds we hide in most often contain women so one wouldn't stand out.


Most of the game is about not bein seen in the first place, not standing in plain sight.

A man standing on a roof with a crossbow aimin at a guard is just as suspicious as a woman doing the same.

It makes no real difference neither logically, nor, more importantly, in that games universe where there are LOADS of female assassins.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Before I asked I just want state once more that I am all for equality and equal rights of all gender and orientation. I simply needed to state this so no one jumps the gun...Anyway..
 
Hypothetical question. So if someone wanted to create a fantasy world and setting. Is it a required must that they have Gender equality and full tolerance of all sexual orientations?

Absolutely not. Absolutely NOT.

BUT dragon age, as we know, as a world IS very progressive and DOES allow women to fight and basically do whatever they want, and as such the game should represent that.

[Killdren88]

Absolutely not. Absolutely NOT.

BUT dragon age, as we know, as a world IS very progressive and DOES allow women to fight and basically do whatever they want, and as such the game should represent that.

 

Oh yes of course. I wasn't referring to Dragon Age at All. It was more of a question of Fantasy in General.

[SardaukarElite]

Not every thread is going to be filled with people who agree with the OP. They have every right to disagree and voice an opinion, as long as it is respectful, of course.

This is obviously important to the OP, but not everyone thinks so and I see nothing wrong with that. She is certainly entitled to have concerns, but we've seen how many enemies that are human? Barely any in the scheme of things.

 

My point is that without evidence to the contrary there isn't any harm in discussing the issue.

 

I don't see what how important some people think things are has to do with anything, the discussion is optional. Someone joining a discussion to say how it isn't important to them is only disruptive.

 

 

Dude, the point of assassins is they don't stand out.

 

A woman in the 1500s with a sword, crossbow and dagger on her belt as well as a suit of armor STANDS OUT.

 

A man with a sword, crossbow, dagger and armour stands out.

 

Ignoring that, women managed to disguise themselves as men and fight up until the 20th century when full medical examinations became common. Though they continued fighting as spies and resistance fighters or Russians regardless.

 

 

Hypothetical question. So if someone wanted to create a fantasy world and setting. Is it a required must that they have Gender equality and full tolerance of all sexual orientations?

 

Of course not.

 

However, any injustice is opposed, that's how things change. If your world doesn't have gender equality, then I want to see the people who are fighting for gender equality.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

As much as I'd love to get into an argument over this with you, here really isn't the place to start this debate.

Ack you're right, I couldn't resist :/

I'll leave my post but not talk further about the issue.

[Samahl]

Hypothetical question. So if someone wanted to create a fantasy world and setting. Is it a required must that they have Gender equality and full tolerance of all sexual orientations?

No, but if you're going to introduce institutional inequality into your world, you should address it, rather than simply use it as an excuse to exclude women, people of color, and other marginalized groups.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Oh yes of course. I wasn't referring to Dragon Age at All. It was more of a question of Fantasy in General.

Oh ok, then yeah, gender inequality can be a very interesting issue in fiction so gender equality should never be required.

[Thermopylae]

Aren't there more male grey wardens than female as a rule though? 

 

As for the female enemy thing, I'm not sure. Bad guys you kill in combat aren't really characters though, more like faceless goons that drop loot when you kill them. Nothing more. So Equal gender representation probably doesn't enter the equation here for most devs.

 

Also no one sees it as a big deal if 70 to 90% of the enemy's you kill are male. Just an industry standard.

 

I'd like to see more diverse groups of enemy's but I came across a rather face palm worthy example when I was playing Dragons dogma recently and I came across the Westron Labrys band of lady bandits

 

Who's sole unique identifying factor was that all their members were women who hated men & would attack you if you or one of your pawns was male. Good old Capcom... Had to cross dress to disguise myself 

 

So as long as it isn't done like this all good.

 

P.S Manchester is Blue 

 

Actually this would be thematically appropriate. DA 2 had bandit groups in Kirkwall that were composed on the basis of gender. Sort of a really violent womens refuge with knives thing. It could be interesting to represent gender issues, ah, in a fantasy RPG game. Glad most of the jokes I would have made have already been made by other people  in this topic.

[BabyFratelli]

Ack you're right, I couldn't resist :/

I'll leave my post but not talk further about the issue.

 

I understand. I had to exercise extreme self-control myself. 

 

 

No, but if you're going to introduce institutional inequality into your world, you should address it, rather than simply use it as an excuse to exclude women, people of color, and other marginalized groups.

 

Yeah, this. Think Game of Thrones. Extreme gender rolls implemented in Westeros, women in particular drawing the short end of the freedom stick, but there's still a huge variety of well-written, developed female characters with interesting points of view who challenge their society. 

[phunx]

Dude, the point of assassins is they don't stand out.

 

A woman in the 1500s with a sword, crossbow and dagger on her belt as well as a suit of armor STANDS OUT.

 

If we're talking about actual assasins during the French Revolution well... http://en.wikipedia....harlotte_Corday

[KBomb]

My point is that without evidence to the contrary there isn't any harm in discussing the issue.

 

I don't see what how important some people think things are has to do with anything, the discussion is optional. Someone joining a discussion to say how it isn't important to them is only disruptive.

 

 

 

A man with a sword, crossbow, dagger and armour stands out.

 

Ignoring that, women managed to disguise themselves and fight up until the 20th century when full medical examinations became common. Though they continued fighting as spies and resistance fighters or Russians regardless.

 

 

 

Of course not.

 

However, any injustice is opposed, that's how things change. If your world doesn't have gender equality, then I want to see the people who are fighting for gender equality.

I don't see any harm in discussing it either, but I'll have to disagree about the disruptive part. Of course people who disagree with how important the issue is will respond. That is usually how discussions flow. You can find common ground even in disagreements, even if it's only how you respond. It's only disruptive if done in a disrespectful manner. It's no more disruptive to say, "This is an issue?" than it is to say, "You can't express an opinion on this because you're a male." there has been bad behavior on both sides of this discussion. You can find this issue non-important to you, yet understand it could be important to someone else. Just as you can see it is important to you, but not so much to others. Tolerance works best when it flies both ways.