839 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

Earn Your Happy Ending

 

That it is a result of the choices I as the player made.  Rather than a deus ex machina, or some other arbitrary contrivance that leaves victory feeling unearned.  Just as an arbitrary "heroic sacrifice" contrivance forced on the player is something to be avoided as well.

 

This still isn't particularly helpful for me, because I suspect that we'll have differing agreements of what it means to "a lot more hardship, anguish and grief than is really necessary."

 

Love interest sacrifices themselves to complete the journey in a more ideal way.... Satisfies the trope and ensures PC survives.  Are you satisfied?  What level is the cost acceptable, and what level is the cost too much?

 

At what point does victory feel "unearned?"  And how do we reconcile if an earned victory for you feels different than an earned victory for me?

[nightcobra]

This still isn't particularly helpful for me, because I suspect that we'll have differing agreements of what it means to "a lot more hardship, anguish and grief than is really necessary."

 

Love interest sacrifices themselves to complete the journey in a more ideal way.... Satisfies the trope and ensures PC survives.  Are you satisfied?  What level is the cost acceptable, and what level is the cost too much?

 

At what point does victory feel "unearned?"  And how do we reconcile if an earned victory for you feels different than an earned victory for me?

 

 

Archengeia, a person who i respect deeply mostly conveys in a more eloquent manner my feelings on the subject.

also, because i'm feeling too lazy/tired to type my thoughts right now.

 

video

 

(starts at 1:43:00) it's about 10 minutes that he takes to explain his point.

[Allan Schumacher]

Archengeia, a person who i respect deeply mostly conveys in a more eloquent manner my feelings on the subject.

also, because i'm feeling too lazy/tired to type my thoughts right now.

 

video

 

(starts at 1:43:00) it's about 10 minutes that he takes to explain his point.

 

I disagree with the disassociation he makes of the loyalty missions and upgrading the ship as being not "grinding."  Both things are basically "complete the game in a thorough manner." 

 

It could be argued that "grinding" and a host of other things are also active choices (I personally would like to see more consequences for this type of behaviour, but it's never been particularly popular in my experience, for example).  The player is choosing to do those activities instead of aspects of the narrative that are more urgent.

 

 

The active choices that I like in the Suicide Mission are the choices made during the suicide mission.  There's a degree of challenge and interesting choice that comes with them.  I picked Thane, because I felt if he were to die at least his certain death would not be in vain.  But a lot of the suicide mission and end game content is "be presented with the content, and complete it in a way that isn't really self-sabotaging."  IIRC, can't you upgrade the entire ship?  Because if so, then saving crew members is simply a matter of grinding out the planet scanning.

 

 

I do like that the ending isn't dependent on level or anything like that.  But I still feel that the Suicide Mission is weakened by the fact that I find it really easy to complete it without losing anyone.  On my first playthrough, and I don't really consider myself a completionist and I do consider myself to be someone that doesn't neglect urgent main storylines for very long, the only reason why I didn't have a flawless Suicide Mission is because I didn't spend a bit more time thinking about who the best person to send into the tunnels would be.  I'm glad that it wasn't super obvious to me who to choose for the tunnels, but when I learned that it was possible to complete the mission with everyone coming back, I was disappointed.  Especially after ME1 which made me make the awful choice of having to sacrifice a crew member and being helpless to do anything about it.

[nightcobra]

 

I do like that the ending isn't dependent on level or anything like that.  But I still feel that the Suicide Mission is weakened by the fact that I find it really easy to complete it without losing anyone.  On my first playthrough, and I don't really consider myself a completionist and I do consider myself to be someone that doesn't neglect urgent main storylines for very long, the only reason why I didn't have a flawless Suicide Mission is because I didn't spend a bit more time thinking about who the best person to send into the tunnels would be.  I'm glad that it wasn't super obvious to me who to choose for the tunnels, but when I learned that it was possible to complete the mission with everyone coming back, I was disappointed.  Especially after ME1 which made me make the awful choice of having to sacrifice a crew member and being helpless to do anything about it.

 

To me it was the complete opposite really, when I learned that was possible I was glad that It Was a possibility.

Could it have been made harder or less obvious to achieve? maybe.

But what I Felt was that I could end up making so many different shepards and stories and end up talking with my friends on how their shepards did their adventures. we weren't disappointed that our squadmates could be saved, a few of our playthroughs had some squadmates die because it felt right in that particular playthrough, And...when on some playthroughs we could save everyone it was for the same reason, because It Felt right.

 

It may not be the feedback you want or not even that informative, but it's genuine. 

[TheodoricFriede]

I just dont understand why, if an rpg is going to have multiple endings, there cant be at least one that can be taken as a happy, ride off into the sunset, ending.

 

Bleakness and sacrifice and ambiguity is all well and good, but sometimes i want to beat a game, point at the screen and happily state, "I did that! right there!".

 

There are few things more satisfying the end ending of DA:O, if you take the ritual.

Big party, talking with all your friends, and walking out into a cheering crowd, then reading about how you impacted the world around you.

[nightcobra]

I just dont understand why, if an rpg is going to have multiple endings, there cant be at least one that can be taken as a happy, ride off into the sunset, ending.

 

Bleakness and sacrifice and ambiguity is all well and good, but sometimes i want to beat a game, point at the screen and happily state, "I did that! right there!".

 

Some, maybe a lot of people, think that it cheapens the rest of the endings just by its mere existence.

As far as I'm concerned, and this is only how i feel about it, is that it complements the others and broadens the scope of the journey, rather than cheapen them.

There aren't wrong choices, just different stories.

They are only wrong if i perceive those stories to be inferior in quality.

 

Again, just how i feel on the subject.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I just dont understand why, if an rpg is going to have multiple endings, there cant be at least one that can be taken as a happy, ride off into the sunset, ending.

 

Bleakness and sacrifice and ambiguity is all well and good, but sometimes i want to beat a game, point at the screen and happily state, "I did that! right there!".

 

There are few things more satisfying the end ending of DA:O, if you take the ritual.

Big party, talking with all your friends, and walking out into a cheering crowd, then reading about how you impacted the world around you.

The problem with a happy ending is that it is often percieved as the "right ending". where every other ending is the result of you as the player having done something WRONG along the line.

[Allan Schumacher]

To me it was the complete opposite really

 

That's part of the challenge though, isn't it?

 

How do we reconcile that different people want different experiences out of their games and that often those desires are mutually exclusive.

 

 

But what I Felt was that I could end up making so many different shepards and stories and end up talking with my friends on how their shepards did their adventures. we weren't disappointed that our squadmates could be saved, a few of our playthroughs had some squadmates die because it felt right in that particular playthrough, And...when on some playthroughs we could save everyone it was for the same reason, because It Felt right.

 

This touches on what people want from the idea of "choice" in video games that I mentioned earlier.  Some want to drive a narrative in a particular way that because that particular narrative makes for an interesting story.

For myself, I like to attempt to influence the narrative, as well as react to the circumstances of the narrative, as the game player.  With this comes an actual hope that I will not have an excessive amount of ability to influence the narrative... the reality that I'm still just a small player and that I can have influence on some things, but not all things.

 

I don't think one interpretation of narrative choice is particularly superior than the other, on an objective level.  I do have my preference, based upon my own tastes and what I seek out of a video game, however.

 

 

It may not be the feedback you want or not even that informative, but it's genuine.

 

I'm speaking more as a game player than a game developer for this discussion.  These also aren't the decisions that I get to make, so perhaps that's a silver lining of hope for yourself?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The problem with a happy ending is that it is often percieved as the "right ending". where every other ending is the result of you as the player having done something WRONG along the line.

That will always exist though. Even among Mass Effect 3's endings, where none were a "Everybody lives happily ever after" type of ending, there are huge arguments about which ending is the 'right' one that go on to this day. 

[Allan Schumacher]

That will always exist though. Even among Mass Effect 3's endings, where none were a "Everybody lives happily ever after" type of ending, there are huge arguments about which ending is the 'right' one that go on to this day. 

 

The arguments will always exist.  The issue is whether or not there is consensus.  The thing I like about ME3's endings is that I don't know which of the choices is the best choice.  Which I find hella interesting on a self-introspective level.

 

Do you think that people would disagree on which of the endings in ME2 would be considered optimal?

[Milan92]

I just dont understand why, if an rpg is going to have multiple endings, there cant be at least one that can be taken as a happy, ride off into the sunset, ending.

 

Because everything needs to be grey and dark these days.

 

Happy rainbow endings are soo 2004.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The arguments will always exist.  The issue is whether or not there is consensus.

 

Do you think that people would disagree on which of the endings in ME2 would be considered optimal?

Yes, actually. Some think destroying the Collector Base is optimal. Others think keeping the Collector Base is optimal. 

[nightcobra]

That will always exist though. Even among Mass Effect 3's endings, where none were a "Everybody lives happily ever after" type of ending, there are huge arguments about which ending is the 'right' one that go on to this day. 

 

that's a whole can of worms that i'm not willing to go back into.

but i'll say this though...it still hurts. (not because of the whole lack of happy ending thing, but more due to the inconsistencies throughout that game, not just in the end - though that's where they were more noticeable - i'd better stop before i start ranting again)

 

they don't exist due to them being fictional characters and all, But the experiences with those characters throughout the series were just as important as any of my real life experiences. life as i see it, is the sum of all our experiences and feeling that came along with them, If you had experiences that you felt strongly about, our brains don't care if they were real or not, they mattered.

[Allan Schumacher]

Yes, actually. Some think destroying the Collector Base is optimal. Others think keeping the Collector Base is optimal. 

 

So there's one discussion point.  How about the crew?

[TheodoricFriede]

The problem with a happy ending is that it is often percieved as the "right ending". where every other ending is the result of you as the player having done something WRONG along the line.

Its an rpg though. There is no right or wrong. Its whatever story the player wants to tell with the tools available to him or her.

 

Hence why people will, before a playthrough, decide what their characters morals and personality are like.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So there's one discussion point.  How about the crew?

Well, there are some who think *insert character here* dying would be optimal. Are those people outliers? Of course. But the disagreements on whether *insert character here* living or dying is the optimal outcome still happen. 

[Allan Schumacher]

Well, there are some who think *insert character here* dying would be optimal. Are those people outliers? Of course. But the disagreements on whether *insert character here* living or dying is the optimal outcome still happen.

 

The existence of some people that find a particular person dying to be "optimal" isn't interesting nor relevant.  This is always going to happen, but someone telling me that joining the Master in Fallout 1 is the "best ending in the game" isn't going to convince me that that is actually the case.  It's an outlier, and one that I would not consider to be anywhere near having consensus nor agreement.

 

I do not believe that, if you were to take a random sample of the fan base, that there'd be much traction beyond "all crew members survive" if asked what is the ideal/optimal outcome of the crew in Mass Effect 2.  I don't mandate that an idea has 100% support to be seen as the preferred outcome.

 

 

 

It's like the Mages and the Templars.  There's plenty of people that fully believe siding with one or the other is the right course of action.  That people argue so much about it is, in my eye, a fascinating response and indicative of the fact that we likely made an interesting and complicated situation.

[Lieutenant Kurin]

So there's one discussion point.  How about the crew?

I'm sure the majority would say that the more survive the better. Especially since there is an achievement to bring everyone back alive. Stuff like that reinforces what's optimal. But I will say that many people disagreed on who should've acted as secondary leader. I always questioned why Zaeed, despite leading the Blue Suns' armies at a point, wasn't a suitable choice.

 

And I remember that I picked Samara once, and actually had Miranda say 'good choice' only for her to turn out to be bad , but that was more a red herring thing.

 

Plus, while 'thorough-ness' is good, one could easily play a Shep who saw that the Collectors were the more immediate threat and thus held a much larger priority over loyalty missions. Upgrading the ship is a bit more 'mandatory' feeling though. (All that said, the game did reinforce how necessary loyalty missions were, but they didn't say 'do this or x dies').

[EmperorSahlertz]

Its an rpg though. There is no right or wrong. Its whatever story the player wants to tell with the tools available to him or her.

 

Hence why people will, before a playthrough, decide what their characters morals and personality are like.

Yeah, but it is also a game, which implies it can be "won". Most people would see the happy ending as "winning the game".

 

Well, there are some who think *insert character here* dying would be optimal. Are those people outliers? Of course. But the disagreements on whether *insert character here* living or dying is the optimal outcome still happen. 

But the matter of fact is, that the optimal playthrough is still considered to be the one with all crew members survivng and X happens to the Collector Base. What may happen to an individual crewmember is usually done from a roleplay perspective, which is a disappearingly small percentage of players.

[TheodoricFriede]

 

 

I do not believe that, if you were to take a random sample of the fan base, that there'd be much traction beyond "all crew members survive" if asked what is the ideal/optimal outcome of the crew in Mass Effect 2.

 

Well yeah, and most people would say that not shooting Wrex in the face in Mass Effect 1 is the best outcome.

 

Because it is. Its not a matter of "meaningful choice", its a matter of win or lose.

 

Its a test. You either get the answer right or wrong.

[TheodoricFriede]

Yeah, but it is also a game, which implies it can be "won". Most people would see the happy ending as "winning the game".

 

 

Killing the Archdemon is "winning the game". Everything else is telling your story.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Killing the Archdemon is "winning the game". Everything else is telling your story.

DA:O doesn't have a happy ending, so your point is moot. Also, I was speaking of games in general.

[TheodoricFriede]

DA:O doesn't have a happy ending, so your point is moot. Also, I was speaking of games in general.

Um...yeah it does?

 

You can sure as hell make a happy ending if you try hard enough.

 

"Survived the blight. Alister is great king. Zevran lives. Sten respects you. Shale takes a mortal form. Connor survives. Dagna is useful at the circle. etc."

 

All of these are aspects of the happy ending you can create for yourself.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah, but it is also a game, which implies it can be "won". Most people would see the happy ending as "winning the game".

And what's wrong with feeling accomplished for achieving a happy ending? I don't see why people who like that kind of ending should have it stripped away and replaced with different shades of depressing outcomes just so others can argue that there isn't a 'right' ending, especially since no matter how bleak the endings get people will always argue one is better than the others. 

 

So it is stripping away the joy for some to address a problem that won't be fixed by its removal. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Um...yeah it does?

 

You can sure as hell make a happy ending if you try hard enough.

 

"Survived the blight. Alister is great king. Zevran lives. Sten respects you. Shale takes a mortal form. Connor survives. Dagna is useful at the circle"

 

All of these are aspects of the happy ending you can create for yourself.

".... Oh and you've let an ancient dark entity of untold power live.... Surely that isn't gonna come back to haunt anyone!"

 

Yes, you can make an ending that turns out optimal results for your liking. You cannot make a happy ending.