839 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Are there any other coverups in the game that you can criticize?

 

And for a different point, wherein lies the majority of the corruption in DA2? Hardly any of your companions have official positions, with the exception of Aveline; not even Hawke has one that has explicit responsibilities. Criminality, sure, you can argue a great deal of that, but many of the ingredients necessary for corruption don't seem to exist.

 

Corruption doesn't require official positions- that only refers to governmental corruption. Corruption as a broad category only requires power and the subversion of the standards. Criminality that exploits or outright ignores the established law is the far more common, and mundane, form.

[Xilizhra]

Corruption doesn't require official positions- that only refers to governmental corruption. Corruption as a broad category only requires power and the subversion of the standards. Criminality that exploits or outright ignores the established law is the far more common, and mundane, form.

So your issue is related to subverting the standards of the templars? Or of Dumar's government?

[dutch_gamer]

Not overdone? It's been done since ancient Greece and the Bible...you can't be serious?

And the hero winning against all odds hasn't been overdone either? Both have been overdone and both are cliches.

[Wulfram]

I don't think corruption is such a bad thing when the laws in place are unjust, and the legal system is pretty much arbitrary anyway.  In fact it can be the thing that adds a bit of humanity to a system that would otherwise be unbearably tyrannical.

[Dean_the_Young]

So your issue is related to subverting the standards of the templars? Or of Dumar's government?

 

There is no either-or. The Circle System is recognized law across Andrastian Thedas- it is one of the cornerstones of international law in the setting. Dumar's government is also at play at the domestic level, though it should be hopefully obvious why the laws of Kirkwall do not cease to apply when the government's head is absent. Bribing and hiding and circumventing these things in the pursuit of personal interests is corruption

 

But I'm more talking about the conduct and composition of the party as a whole, which I've described in the past.

[Xilizhra]

There is no either-or. The Circle System is recognized law across Andrastian Thedas- it is one of the cornerstones of international law in the setting. Dumar's government is also at play at the domestic level, though it should be hopefully obvious why the laws of Kirkwall do not cease to apply when the government's head is absent. Bribing and hiding and circumventing these things in the pursuit of personal interests is corruption

 

But I'm more talking about the conduct and composition of the party as a whole, which I've described in the past.

Sometimes, corruption can be admirable. It may be an overused example, but many corrupt people within Nazi Germany used their corruption to save a lot of lives.

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't think corruption is such a bad thing when the laws in place are unjust, and the legal system is pretty much arbitrary anyway.  In fact it can be the thing that adds a bit of humanity to a system that would otherwise be unbearably tyrannical.

 

No institution starts out great- but no institution can grow to become a good or even decent one if perfect becomes the enemy of better. Corruption in the establishment only goes away when corruption is opposed, not seen as the solution. Fighting corruption with corruption is a loser's strategy. Removing a corrupt guard captain who was willing to work with criminals and get her guards killed is two steps forward. Replacing him with a corrupt guard captain who works with criminals is already a step back, even before said new captain employs or is an accessory to criminality in her own right.

 

Institutions are not made good and pure. They become better by iteration and evolution when standards are not only claimed, but upheld. Following and enabling a culture of corruption only sees the institutions become more and more corrupt, and corrupt institutions are the most unbearably tyrannical because the corruption makes them prone to arbitrary rather than uniform actions.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sometimes, corruption can be admirable. It may be an overused example, but many corrupt people within Nazi Germany used their corruption to save a lot of lives.

 

The Nazi regime was the high-water mark of a corrupt government, not rule of law. It is far better as the examples of the evils of a corrupt government, not the evils of Rule of Law that corruption saves from.

[Xilizhra]

No institution starts out great- but no institution can grow to become a good or even decent one if perfect becomes the enemy of better. Corruption in the establishment only goes away when corruption is opposed, not seen as the solution. Fighting corruption with corruption is a loser's strategy. Removing a corrupt guard captain who was willing to work with criminals and get her guards killed is two steps forward. Replacing him with a corrupt guard captain who works with criminals is already a step back, even before said new captain employs or is an accessory to criminality in her own right.

 

Institutions are not made good and pure. They become better by iteration and evolution when standards are not only claimed, but upheld. Following and enabling a culture of corruption only sees the institutions become more and more corrupt, and corrupt institutions are the most unbearably tyrannical because the corruption makes them prone to arbitrary rather than uniform actions.

I wouldn't say that corruption is the problem, nor did Wulfram. The problem is that the rule of law in this case is unjust. And this institution hasn't gotten better by iteration and evolution for almost a thousand years; if anything, it's gotten worse. I think we have ample evidence that the slow route wasn't working.

[xAmilli0n]

I actually don't really care what ending they go for, as long as it works in the context of the story.  The ending is only a small part of the game as a whole.

[Maria Caliban]

Alrighty then, name five games in the past hmm 10 years? that forced you into a sad ending.

Dragon Age II
Mass Effect 3
The Walking Dead
Outlast
LA Noire

[Chron0id]

Dragon Age II
Mass Effect 3
The Walking Dead
Outlast
LA Noire

And don't forget these

 

Shadow of the Colossus
Red Dead Redemption
Wolfenstein The New Order
Bioshock Infinite
Fallout 3 (pre-patch)
Onimusha Dawn of Dreams
Persona 3
Dragon's Dogma
Bound by Flame

[xAmilli0n]

And don't forget these

 

Shadow of the Colossus
Red Dead Redemption

 

*snip*

 

Yeah, but these two were also great endings to great games.  Its all about context.

[Xilizhra]

Dragon Age II
Mass Effect 3
The Walking Dead
Outlast
LA Noire

I disagree with the first, and didn't consider DA2's ending to be sad, or at least not a downer ending.

[Chron0id]

Yeah, but these two were also great endings to great games.  Its all about context.

I'll give you Shadow of the Colossus.  I didn't particularly care for RDR's though. 

[Dean_the_Young]

I wouldn't say that corruption is the problem, nor did Wulfram. The problem is that the rule of law in this case is unjust.

 

The groups you cited didn't have rule of law. They were corrupt governments in and of themselves.

 

 

And this institution hasn't gotten better by iteration and evolution for almost a thousand years; if anything, it's gotten worse. I think we have ample evidence that the slow route wasn't working.

 

That might be convincing... had you anything to base your claim of what the last thousand years were like. As it is, it's pretty clear you didn't even look at the calendar.

 

Just over a thousand years before the present Kirkwall was just coming out of the rule of an unrivaledly brutal mageocracy in which slaves were being systematically butchered by the thousands to fill lakes of blood beneath the city, in rituals that may or may not have started the First Blight which ravaged for the previous two centuries before that.

 

Things have gotten better in the last thousand years, and that's just from what little we know. You have even less basis to claim there has been no changes since then.

[xAmilli0n]

I'll give you Shadow of the Colossus.  I didn't particularly care for RDR's though. 

 

Well, lets put that disagreement to differences in taste.  I found it quite fitting to game.

[Maria Caliban]

He didn't ask for sad endings that were bad, he just asked for sad endings.

[Xilizhra]

That might be convincing... had you anything to base your claim of what the last thousand years were like. As it is, it's pretty clear you didn't even look at the calendar.

 

Just over a thousand years before the present Kirkwall was just coming out of the rule of an unrivaledly brutal mageocracy in which slaves were being systematically butchered by the thousands to fill lakes of blood beneath the city, in rituals that may or may not have started the First Blight which ravaged for the previous two centuries before that.

 

Things have gotten better in the last thousand years, and that's just from what little we know. You have even less basis to claim there has been no changes since then.

I was referring to the Chantry/Circle system, which is why I used "almost" a thousand years, not "over."

[xAmilli0n]

He didn't ask for sad endings that were bad, he just asked for sad endings.

 

Fair enough.  I'm just making the point that a sad can be appropriate.

[Chron0id]

Well, lets put that disagreement to differences in taste.  I found it quite fitting to game.

Yeah, something about RDR's ending rubbed me the wrong way.  It was so....goddamned BLEAK.  I'm talking, a black hole of bleakness!  I think I found a bigger sense of optimism in Requiem for a Dream than in the ending of RDR. 

[Felya87]

Dragon Age II
Mass Effect 3
The Walking Dead
Outlast
LA Noire

 

Final Fantasy X (but it was good)

Assassin's Creed 3 (Desmond)

[Dean_the_Young]

I was referring to the Chantry/Circle system, which is why I used "almost" a thousand years, not "over."

 

A thousand years ago mages were being butchered in the streets and everywhere else they could be found by a slave revolt and barbarian invasion that destroyed a continent-spanning magocracy. The surrounding decades were an age in terror that ended with the mages happily accepting a social segregation to be able to practice magic without being lynched by mobs.

[Xilizhra]

A thousand years ago mages were being butchered in the streets and everywhere else they could be found by a slave revolt and barbarian invasion that destroyed a continent-spanning magocracy. The surrounding decades were an age in terror that ended with the mages happily accepting a social segregation to be able to practice magic without being lynched by mobs.

"Almost," again. "From the date that the current Circle system was implemented," to be precise. It's that one that's never shown any sign of improvement; in fact, the only innovation we know of is giving the templars the right to slaughter everyone in a given Circle with grand cleric permission.

[Dean_the_Young]

"Almost," again. "From the date that the current Circle system was implemented," to be precise. It's that one that's never shown any sign of improvement; in fact, the only innovation we know of is giving the templars the right to slaughter everyone in a given Circle with grand cleric permission.

 

You have no context or basis for comparison for what the standards of the Circle have been in the time since the creation of the current Circle system. You do not even have a context of basis for comparison for what the standards of the Circle were during the initial inception of the Circle system.

 

If you wish to claim things have not changed from the date that the current Circle system was implemented, you will have to support that with sources.