839 réponses à ce sujet

[BloodKaiden]

I have to admit I'm somewhat taken aback by the subset of fans who place a priority on a personal happy ending with the LI.

If I go through the entire game romancing an LI, I expect them to have some small fraction of happiness as the end result. The amount of time I spent trying to get Fenris's love as a male mage in DA 2 only to have him betray me not once but twice left such a bad taste in my mouth. Which is why I got revenge and gave him back to Danaruis. For me, there is no greater good than my LI, if the world isn't ok with that then screw em. Dorian is mine, if I save the world along the way then its another positive.

[Halfdan The Menace]

Multiple endings is fine, but the ideal ending should end with the antihero and/or villain winning, it's all in reality. I dislike it when the protagonist wins, why can't the antihero/villain win every once in a while? Once you know that 9 times out of 10 the protagonist wins, it takes the suspense out of the audience.

[Killdren88]

Stumbling into the light is fine, provided it doesn't involve something face-palm level absurd as a plot device. In this case, that would mean Morrigan's OGB turning out to be a perfectly innocent child with nothing else attached. 

 

The problem I see with DA:I is that, in terms of how the choice is framed, the dark ritual should have some severe consequences, but they're unlikely to develop into anything significant, just based on development constraints. 

 

Where does it say the Old God baby has to be evil? It is free of the taint. Why can it not be used as an asset against something that is even a greater threat and the OGB will be an ally in the future.

[Chron0id]

I have to admit I'm somewhat taken aback by the subset of fans who place a priority on a personal happy ending with the LI.

Why would you be taken aback by that?

[TK514]

Where does it say the Old God baby has to be evil? It is free of the taint. Why can it not be used as an asset against something that is even a greater threat and the OGB will be an ally in the future.

 

That 'free of the taint' business never made sense.  The Archdemon soul follows the Taint to reincarnate in a different Darkspawn body.  That's why the Grey Warden sacrifice works.  Instead of the AD soul moving to a soulless new body, it tries to occupy one that already has a resident, and both are destroyed.

 

So, Morrigan needs a Grey Warden for the ritual to work, and in order for the AD to find the baby, the baby has to be tainted.

 

So the AD is moving from one tainted body to another, which means it isn't free of the Taint.

[jtav]

Why would you be taken aback by that?

I substantially agree with Wynne, at least as she finally revises her position. If I'm playing the Inquisitor as heroic, their romantic lives and even their personal happiness are subordinate to their duty, especially the duty to protect others in their care. Romantic love is a wonderful thing, and I'm already planning romances, but it's not the most important thing for any of them.

[PsychoBlonde]

Then I'd say you made the choice irresponsibly.  I guess we'll find out though, won't we?

 

But it's a personal perspective of yours, and one that I (and many others) don't agree with.  It's a complete unknown... there's no indication if it will NOT be evil either.

 

For me the best Origins ending is a tossup between having Loghain die killing the Archdemon and doing the Dark Ritual.  Although I mostly want to do the Dark Ritual because I'm curious as to what happens.  Loghain killing the Archdemon feels very "fitting" to me, though.

 

For me, the problem with the Dark Ritual is that they can't do anything really major or interesting with it because they simply don't have the resources to invest that much in content that only fits one load in scenario.  (Unless they do something cheesy where you get an OGB "equivalent" of some kind for the people who DIDN'T do the Dark Ritual.)  I *hate* that kind of thing, where something gets talked up as being big that cannot possibly be big.

 

I don't really like how fixated games seem to be on the whole killing people off business.  Dying is boring.  Living with a new series of challenges is interesting.

[Felya87]

I have to admit I'm somewhat taken aback by the subset of fans who place a priority on a personal happy ending with the LI.

 

Many players proiect themself in their characters. others simply end up being fond of them while playng the game. for some is simply escapism from a reality that for many is already sad enought, and at least for their virual character want some happiness.

 

Thing is, is in the nature of the human being to try to have the better life possibile. Personal happyness is what every man and woman always try to gain in their life (who would really wanto to let die or loose their loved ones if s/he doesn't have very severe psychological or healt problem?).

and for many this instict happen in videogames too. expecially those games that let the player have different choices, and shoud have differents outcomes.

 

and for me, many are simply scared of a repeat of ME3's endings, that gave differents outcomes in the galaxy, but none on the personal level of the protagonist.

[PsychoBlonde]

I substantially agree with Wynne, at least as she finally revises her position. If I'm playing the Inquisitor as heroic, their romantic lives and even their personal happiness are subordinate to their duty, especially the duty to protect others in their care. Romantic love is a wonderful thing, and I'm already planning romances, but it's not the most important thing for any of them.

 

Just because something is not your highest overall value, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't take time to pursue it.  No person can live only having a *single* value.

 

That being said, I don't consider "you and your LI ride off into the sunset together" to be the only possible "happy" romance ending.  I consider romancing Alistair AND talking him into marrying Anora WITHOUT you on the side to be a "happy" ending.  You enjoyed your time together, and now he's taking up adult responsibilities with a formidable lady to back him.  Things end.  People move on.  What was good during a desperate battle may not be the best way forward after the battle's over.  If you love someone, you want what's best for them--even if it doesn't include you.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Just because something is not your highest overall value, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't take time to pursue it.  No person can live only having a *single* value.

 

Well i can and it works.

[Zjarcal]

If I go through the entire game romancing an LI, I expect them to have some small fraction of happy as the end result. The amount of time I spent trying to get Fenris's love as a male mage in DA 2 only to have him betray me not once but twice left such a bad taste in my mouth. Which is why I got revenge and gave him back to Danaruis. For me, there is no greater good than my LI, if the world isn't ok with that then screw em. Dorian is mine, if I save the world along the way then its another positive.

 

Wait, Fenris betrayed you in DA2 (let alone twice)? 

[frylock23]

I will say this - I do get quite enough sad feels from my daily perusal of the real news. Right now there is enough death, destruction and suffering for a lifetime's worth of video games x 1,000. I sure do hope there is a way to get at least a chance at a sunshine and rainbows ending for my pixels this time. The happy feels would be a nice counterpoint to reality.

[Chron0id]

I substantially agree with Wynne, at least as she finally revises her position. If I'm playing the Inquisitor as heroic, their romantic lives and even their personal happiness are subordinate to their duty, especially the duty to protect others in their care. Romantic love is a wonderful thing, and I'm already planning romances, but it's not the most important thing for any of them.

Ah, I see you've been to the George R.R. Martin school of philosophy.  "Love is the Death of Duty."  Well, I only have one thing to say to that. 

 

[CronoDragoon]

Ah, I see you've been to the George R.R. Martin school of philosophy.  "Love is the Death of Duty."  Well, I only have one thing to say to that. 

 

I wonder how Cassandra would feel about an Inquisitor that chooses to let the world be destroyed for selfish reasons.

 

I have a pretty good idea how that romance would end.

 

It's fine to believe the hero's journey shouldn't always end in sacrifice, or that love shouldn't always end in tragedy.

 

But to demand that it never be the case is sort of ridiculous.

[jtav]

Less Martin than Lovelace: "I could not love thee, dear, so much loved I not honor more." Duty to the Inquisition and those under my charge will always come first.

[Il Divo]

That's nice.   But that would be your opinion as well. 

 

In conclusion: don't be an opinion dictator. 

 

It's your opinion that happy endings aren't cliche`? Good luck defending that one. 

 

Both types of endings are common, there's nothing new under the sun as they say. The important thing is that no matter the type of ending it has to fit the game and be well done. ME3's was not fitting and not well done.

 

I would agree with this. 

[Felya87]

Less Martin than Lovelace: "I could not love thee, dear, so much loved I not honor more." Duty to the Inquisition and those under my charge will always come first.

 

I think it should depend on the kind of character you roleplay. All my Wardens wheren't very "duty freaks". and I think my Inquisitor wuldn't either.

 

My Wardens became Gray Wardens because they didn't had a choice. The Inquisitor probably too. with this incipit, ("I didn't ask for this") I can't really picture a character who would dedicate herself for the Inquisition, just like I couldn't picture any of my Wardens be totally dedicated to the Gray Wardens.

 

and I must admit I can't stand people who think only of their duty/work in real life, since usually aren't very good people with their family/friends (at least, that's my personal experience. I don't doubt there are people who are almost sickening loyat to their work, and great with the people around them, but I never met them) and are dangerously in the way of being no better than fanatics.

[Neon Rising Winter]

It's your opinion that happy endings aren't cliche`? Good luck defending that one. 

 

Well it depends how you're defining the term cliche. If you're taking it to mean used an awful lot - sure, of course they are. If you're taking it to mean so overused as to be pretty much meaningless - then no, you've chosen far too vague and ill-defined a type of ending to be able to defend it as an example of a cliche. You need to be more specific.

[Il Divo]

Where does it say the Old God baby has to be evil? It is free of the taint. Why can it not be used as an asset against something that is even a greater threat and the OGB will be an ally in the future.

 

Provided that Bioware actually wants their grey endings to be, well, grey, the OGB will need to function as a source of more dramatic tension. The OGB was pretty much the only element that made players pause when choosing to save their Warden. "Hey, this can come back to bite me in the ass later on". Having the OGB turn out to not be evil and on top of that, be used as an additional benefit for the player just reframes the "dark ritual" as being the correct choice, which isn't really why DA:O's ending is applauded (far as I recall).  

 

It doesn't mean the OGB necessarily has to burn the world to the ground, but in some capacity it should have players wondering "did I make the right call?"

[frylock23]

Honestly, there isn't an idea or ending in the world that isn't cliché by now. They've all been done. The secret is in how well you use them. They only begin to feel cliché when you don't use them well.

[Il Divo]

Well it depends how you're defining the term cliche. If you're taking it to mean used an awful lot - sure, of course they are. If you're taking it to mean so overused as to be pretty much meaningless - then no, you've chosen far too vague and ill-defined a type of ending to be able to defend it as an example of a cliche. You need to be more specific.

 

http://dictionary.re...m/browse/Cliche

 

Specifically, definition number three. 

 

"anything that has become trite or commonplace throughoveruse."

 

Note, I'm assuming here that he's applying the term cliche consistently between "hero sacrifices himself" and the archetypal good ending (as an example) where "protagonist survives/thrives, all enemies defeated, few/no casualties". 

[Neon Rising Winter]

http://dictionary.re...m/browse/Cliche

 

Specifically, definition number three. 

 

"anything that has become trite or commonplace throughoveruse."

 

Note, I'm assuming here that he's applying the term cliche consistently between "hero sacrifices himself" and the archetypal good ending (as an example) where "protagonist survives/thrives, all enemies defeated, few/no casualties". 

 

Again in both cases it's been used in the context of so vaguely defined an ending that you're removing all meaning from the idea. Abstract any ending out far enough then apply that definition as a blunt object you'll be able to make it fit. It doesn't say anything meaningful though.

[Dean_the_Young]

That 'free of the taint' business never made sense.  The Archdemon soul follows the Taint to reincarnate in a different Darkspawn body.  That's why the Grey Warden sacrifice works.  Instead of the AD soul moving to a soulless new body, it tries to occupy one that already has a resident, and both are destroyed.

 

So, Morrigan needs a Grey Warden for the ritual to work, and in order for the AD to find the baby, the baby has to be tainted.

 

So the AD is moving from one tainted body to another, which means it isn't free of the Taint.

 

I saw the basis of the ritual to be a relay shunting the Old God spirit to the baby, rather than the Old God spirit finding the baby naturally. Sort of a soul trap effect.

 

As it is, I'm fairly sure Gaider has mentioned that Wardens, when/if they have children, the Children aren't tainted.

[Il Divo]

Again in both cases it's been used in the context of so vaguely defined an ending that you're removing all meaning from the idea. Abstract any ending out far enough then apply that definition as a blunt object you'll be able to make it fit. It doesn't say anything meaningful though.

 

That wouldn't be a topic to take up with me (I think you're probably right, to be clear). I was responding specifically with regard to his opening post, which specifies "hero sacrifices himself" as being the most cliche` element. The point was to keep the comparison at the other end of the spectrum, in this case the happy ending, as similarly vague.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong to point it out as meaningless, but that if it's meaningless in the one case, it applies equally to the other case. 

[Chron0id]

I wonder how Cassandra would feel about an Inquisitor that chooses to let the world be destroyed for selfish reasons.

 

I have a pretty good idea how that romance would end.

 

It's fine to believe the hero's journey shouldn't always end in sacrifice, or that love shouldn't always end in tragedy.

 

But to demand that it never be the case is sort of ridiculous.

I never demanded it never be the case.  What's with you and Deus Ex guy putting words in my mouth?