839 réponses à ce sujet

[PsychoBlonde]

Well i can and it works.

 

So, of eating, breathing, and sleeping, which two did you give up?

[Iakus]

Less Martin than Lovelace: "I could not love thee, dear, so much loved I not honor more." Duty to the Inquisition and those under my charge will always come first.

I prefer Reynolds:

 

"Are you willing to die for your beliefs?"

 

"I am"  *Bang!* "...of course, that ain't exactly Plan A"

[Chron0id]

It's your opinion that happy endings aren't cliche`? Good luck defending that one. 

 

Where in the blue hell did I ever state that?

[Kimarous]

Provided that Bioware actually wants their grey endings to be, well, grey, the OGB will need to function as a source of more dramatic tension. The OGB was pretty much the only element that made players pause when choosing to save their Warden. "Hey, this can come back to bite me in the ass later on". Having the OGB turn out to not be evil and on top of that, be used as an additional benefit for the player just reframes the "dark ritual" as being the correct choice, which isn't really why DA:O's ending is applauded (far as I recall).  

 

It doesn't mean the OGB necessarily has to burn the world to the ground, but in some capacity it should have players wondering "did I make the right call?"

 

The really interesting thing is that even rejecting the Dark Ritual can give the player pause. Going to an earlier point about "the dutiful Warden", I ultimately decided that, despite my Warden's other interests, he ultimately put his fight against the Darkspawn first - in his eyes, saving the soul of an Old God meant that there was the potential for it to be tainted again and an extra Blight occurring, which is the main reason he rejected it. I was pretty steadfast in my belief that rejecting the ritual was the best course of action, but when talking to Morrigan at the end of Witch Hunt, I seriously started to wonder if I made the right call.

 

Aaaaand here's where I curse Youtube for apparently having ZERO uploads of the end of Witch Hunt that aren't "romance", "Alistair baby", or "stab." >_>

 

Had I a no-OGB, non-aggressive video, I would pinpoint the exact moment where the doubts hit me. I think it was a particularly sad comment from Morrigan that "it doesn't matter anymore" or something like that.

[TheKomandorShepard]

So, of eating, breathing, and sleeping, which two did you give up?

None of them because in my case it is me.  

[Iakus]

Ah, I see you've been to the George R.R. Martin school of philosophy.  "Love is the Death of Duty."  Well, I only have one thing to say to that. 

 

There is nothing wrong with liking tragic ends, or even preferring them.

 

It's just in a narrative-based game that allows player choice, it shouldn't be the only outcome

[Neon Rising Winter]

That wouldn't be a topic to take up with me (I think you're probably right, to be clear). I was responding specifically with regard to his opening post, which specifies "hero sacrifices himself" as being the most cliche` element. The point was to keep the comparison at the other end of the spectrum, in this case the happy ending, as similarly vague.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong to point it out as meaningless, but that if it's meaningless in the one case, it applies equally to the other case. 

I think we might be in what they call violent agreement. I just see it as, rather than it being hard to defend a happy ending as not being a cliche, it's in fact bloody easy to defend neither of those two as being one!

[Pierce Miller]

jtav, on 07 Aug 2014 - 9:16 PM, said:

Less Martin than Lovelace: "I could not love thee, dear, so much loved I not honor more." Duty to the Inquisition and those under my charge will always come first.

It's interesting the vast amount of players with this very mindset I for one shall be playing a character that lives only for his own desire.

[jtav]

There is nothing wrong with liking tragic ends, or even preferring them.

 

It's just in a narrative-based game that allows player choice, it shouldn't be the only outcome

I'm not sure I'd even say I prefer tragedy (ask me about my reading habits some time). It's the "as long as I'm with my LI and the world isn't completely trashed, that's all that matters" that I find mystifying. If I'm playing a character in a position of power, that binds me. Part of that is that if there's a price to be paid, I should pay it and not someone else. It could be as simple as using the gold I was saving for new tapestries to repair sword to cancelling date night to vanquish brigands (though that *is* date night for Cass) on up to a heroic sacrifice, if it's needed.

[Iakus]

I'm not sure I'd even say I prefer tragedy (ask me about my reading habits some time). It's the "as long as I'm with my LI and the world isn't completely trashed, that's all that matters" that I find mystifying. If I'm playing a character in a position of power, that binds me. Part of that is that if there's a price to be paid, I should pay it and not someone else. It could be as simple as using the gold I was saving for new tapestries to repair sword to cancelling date night to vanquish brigands (though that *is* date night for Cass) on up to a heroic sacrifice, if it's needed.

 

Well I do share the "as long as I am the LI are okay, it's all good" isn't enough sentiment.  Otherwise I'd be fine with the breath scene in ME3.  

 

But if a sacrifice is needed, it needs to be for a really really good reason.  And it better not feel railroaded.

[CronoDragoon]

Where in the blue hell did I ever state that?

 

Because your criticism of the sacrifice ending was that it was cliche and overdone. It's therefore natural to assume that you don't consider what you are advocating to be so. Otherwise, what is the point of calling one cliche and not the other?

 

As for your question to me, you liked this post:

 

I tend to hate the heroic sacrifice ending as it makes it all seem worthless, why fight for a better world when you don't even get to live in it? Those kinds of endings tend to be (for me at least) very unsatisfying.

 

This sounds to me like a pretty clear "stories should always end happily" or at least without a heroic sacrifice. Do you disagree with this post after all, or maybe my interpretation of it?

[Chron0id]

Because your criticism of the sacrifice ending was that it was cliche and overdone. It's therefore natural to assume that you don't consider what you are advocating to be so. Otherwise, what is the point of calling one cliche and not the other?

 

As for your question to me, you liked this post:

 

 

This sounds to me like a pretty clear "stories should always end happily" or at least without a heroic sacrifice. Do you disagree with this post after all, or maybe my interpretation of it?

I disagree with your interpretation of it.  Just because I tend to hate protagonist sacrifice endings doesn't mean I want ALL stories to end happily.  That's jumping from one end of the logical spectrum to the other.  You can't make that leap without making some serious fallacy along the way.   Take my extensive collection of movies for example.  One of my personal favorites is a movie called Life is Beautiful.  At the end of the movie...

 

Spoiler

the protagonist gets unceremoniously executed in a back alley way.  Out of view.

 

Would I have preferred it if the Holocaust prisoner with a heart of gold survived at the end?  Maybe, but I think I understand what the creator of the film was trying to convey in killing him off.  I think the ending was stunning, in a good way.  I also think the movie had more impact with his death.  It was more....beautiful in a certain, sad sort of way. 

[BloodKaiden]

Wait, Fenris betrayed you in DA2 (let alone twice)? 

Yeah, romance with a male mage made him so conflicted that after a series of events he finally come to see Hawke pressing him into going to bed with him only to break off the relationship after he got what he wanted. After the love making he said some crap like I can't do this and pretty much walked out on the relationship.

Shortly after this my mother died which made him come visit me. I remember asking him to say something which lead to him saying "its not my forgiveness you should be seeking" or some bull like that and walked out....again. I took that as oh you're a mage, this is your own fault somehow that your mother died.

Then after helping him with his personal quest by saving his sister's life and killing Danarius when the time to pick a side came he said he wouldn't help mages, not even for me. Being a mage I took that as ok, so I can just die and you not give a damn after all I've done for you to improve your life? So, being me the next play through I made him fall in love with me and then gave him to Danarius when the time came.

It was quite satisfying.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well i can and it works.

So all your talk of preserving yourself, making sure you have the best chances possible at survival, that is all jsut something you made up? Because you honestly just sound like a run-of-the-mill "Oooooh I am dark and gritty and don't have any values" teenager..

[ebby0110]

I would love the option to have a happy ending....As long as the game makes you work hella hard for it. Man I was ready to **** over Tali or Garrus if I needed to if it meant me getting a cure for Thane   in ME3. I like the different variations of what could have happen in DA1, the Morrigan DLC gives you the option to go with her or let her go...I;m just saying I like options.

[Voxr]

I tend to hate the heroic sacrifice ending as it makes it all seem worthless, why fight for a better world when you don't even get to live in it? Those kinds of endings tend to be (for me at least) very unsatisfying.

The greater good? Whats the point of fighting for a better world when you know you're gonna live regardless? I mean sure you don't want to live in a bad world, but hey you're alive aren't you? Atonement for past misdeeds?  Mordin's sacrifice wasn't necessary. He didn't need to go up there. He could have lived and not curing the genophage wouldn't have effected him other than his conscience. But he chose to do it anyway and it cost him his life. I find heroic sacrifice just has heroic than if they lived. The GW wouldn't have seen a ferelden saved(if you chose US).

   But She/He knew their death stopped a blight before it really started. Sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs and wants of the few.

[Chron0id]

The greater good? Whats the point of fighting for a better world when you know you're gonna live regardless? I mean sure you don't want to live in a bad world, but hey you're alive aren't you? Atonement for past misdeeds?  Mordin's sacrifice wasn't necessary. He didn't need to go up there. He could have lived and not curing the genophage wouldn't have effected him other than his conscience. But he chose to do it anyway and it cost him his life. I find heroic sacrifice just has heroic than if they lived. The GW wouldn't have seen a ferelden saved.

   But She/He knew their death stopped a blight before it really started. Sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs and wants of the few.

I think what it really comes down to is choice.  If I'm going to sacrifice my character, MY avatar, I want it to be up to me.  That is what was so genius about Dragon Age Origins.   But now we're talking in circles.  Honestly, I just don't want to go through another Mass Effect 3.  For the love of humanity, I was up all night staring at the ceiling with blood shot eyes after I beat Mass Effect 3 the first time.  I don't want to go through that again.  You read that right: I lost 9 hours of sleep thanks to that ending.

 

Really, I think everything that's been said is all there is to say.  On both sides of the debate.  Guess all we can do is wait and see what happens in Inquisition.  Hopefully, James Leung isn't in charge of writing romances or the story.  >_>

[Voxr]

I think what it really comes down to is choice.  If I'm going to sacrifice my character, MY avatar, I want it to be up to me.  That is what was so genius about Dragon Age Origins.   But now we're talking in circles.  Honestly, I just don't want to go through another Mass Effect 3.  For the love of humanity, I was up all night staring at the ceiling with blood shot eyes after I beat Mass Effect 3 the first time.  I don't want to go through that again.  You read that right: I lost 9 hours of sleep thanks to that ending.

I agree you should have the choice. I don't think BW would pull another ME3 on us (though I liked it. Hate me if you must lol) even if they wanted to, it'd be sorta dumb. But yes people should get their cake and eat it too, or get their cake and not. I just find it odd(?) that people say heroic sacrifice is cliche or for that matter the hero lives. When both are as overdone and cliche as each other and it comes down to execution of said endings(which has also been said previously too lol). So to sum up: Yes. And. No. But also: Yes.

[KaiserShep]

Yeah, romance with a male mage made him so conflicted that after a series of events he finally come to see Hawke pressing him into going to bed with him only to break off the relationship after he got what he wanted. After the love making he said some crap like I can't do this and pretty much walked out on the relationship.

Shortly after this my mother died which made him come visit me. I remember asking him to say something which lead to him saying "its not my forgiveness you should be seeking" or some bull like that and walked out....again. I took that as oh you're a mage, this is your own fault somehow that your mother died.

Then after helping him with his personal quest by saving his sister's life and killing Danarius when the time to pick a side came he said he wouldn't help mages, not even for me. Being a mage I took that as ok, so I can just die and you not give a damn after all I've done for you to improve your life? So, being me the next play through I made him fall in love with me and then gave him to Danarius when the time came.

It was quite satisfying.

 

The power of replay and foresight is greater than any talent on the skill tree.

[Kimarous]

The power of replay and foresight is greater than any talent on the skill tree.

 

THE POWER OF WIKI COMPELS YOU!

 

I used to follow the word of the prophet Prima and his holy book, the Strategy Guide, but the trickster god Patch has long since taught me to distrust hardcopied wisdom.

[TheKomandorShepard]

So all your talk of preserving yourself, making sure you have the best chances possible at survival, that is all jsut something you made up? Because you honestly just sound like a run-of-the-mill "Oooooh I am dark and gritty and don't have any values" teenager..

Eee? I rly don't know with what you have issue here as i didn't contradicted anything here (even if i joked) as you asume because... well i don't know somehow it is funny because you claim that because that what i have said don't contradict that what i have said before but supports that.

 

To be honest for all that talk about dark and gritty teenager type i never saw one here or in other places so it seems rather made up stereotype but well i was called here a troll ,sociopath and Hitler so well feel free to think that. 

.

[Inprea]

I prefer upbeat high hope endings but this doesn't always mean everyone lives. I don't consider it a bad thing when a character dies earlier in the game so long as there is a good reason for it. What I do hate though is cut scene deaths and when my character is auto defeated by a group they've taken apart several times in the past. Well that and when a character suddenly forgets about their abilities. A few examples.

 

Mass Effect 3, Victus. How any of you that have lift wondered why Shepard didn't use it to lift him to safety rather then watching him fall?

 

That or even worse the Kai Lang fight. One overload rips his shields off and yet for some reason your weapons do nothing to him while he recharges. You destroyed several gun ships in Mass Effect 2. Then there is the magic ninja fist bull crap he pulls after putting away his weapon.

 

Dragon Age 2 when Duke Prosper captures you. Okay how many times has Hawk been out numbered and surrounded only to kill everyone that pointed a weapon at him/her?

 

All the dead mages at the circle if you side with the mages. I didn't even let a single templar get down the hallway and yet somehow a large enough pile of them ended up dead to construct a harvester. That makes no sense to me. Unless Orsino was back there cracking them in the head with his staff while Hawk fought the templars.

 

To me if the story teller wants the character defeated they'd better make the fight darn difficult. That said. They should also be prepared for the player to be good enough to overcome the odds. The more they want the player defeated the tougher then need to make the fight. Then if they do introduce such a monster character that the PC's attacks are nothing to it they need to explain what happens to it later. I remember some boss fights from old JRPG's one in particular from Star Ocean 2. I spent thirty minutes trying to kill a boss burning through so many healing items before just letting myself lose. The fight couldn't be won as the boss had unlimited health. However, less then an hour further into the story you encounter the same boss and he died in under a minute. That I found extremely annoying.

 

I guess that makes me a little unusual here though. I don't want choices alone to be what determines the outcome I want performance to be a factor. It's one reason I tend to really like games like Vampire the masquerade bloodlines. There is a delightful moment when you're helping someone fight off a rival gang. If he dies during the fight it's okay the story continues but if you are capable enough you can save him and get some bonus experience points and a nice comment in your quest log. For some character's this is easier then others. The Ventrue have it about as easy as it could get if you've taught them the dominate discipline. One of the abilities is mass suicide and for dealing with humans it lives up to its name.

 

To me if you want the happy ending it shouldn't just be about choices. It should be about overcoming difficult challenges. Perhaps the Inquisitor has to fight a few battles with only one companion or all by herself as her companions are needed else where. That's what I like to see. Sort of like In Mass Effect 3 at the reactor. You can send one of your squad mates to go save the engineers. Though companions tended to be of a bit limited use in that case.

[Zjarcal]

I guess that makes me a little unusual here though. I don't want choices alone to be what determines the outcome I want performance to be a factor. It's one reason I tend to really like games like Vampire the masquerade bloodlines. There is a delightful moment when you're helping someone fight off a rival gang. If he dies during the fight it's okay the story continues but if you are capable enough you can save him and get some bonus experience points and a nice comment in your quest log. For some character's this is easier then others. The Ventrue have it about as easy as it could get if you've taught them the dominate discipline. One of the abilities is mass suicide and for dealing with humans it lives up to its name.

+1 for a Bloodlines reference.

I agree with your post, cutscenes where you're magically defeated by a relatively weak enemy or prevented from taking a logical action are very annoying (Kai Leng is definitely the worst offender).

I also agree on liking gameplay performance to actually affect outcomes, it's probably the best way to "earn" your victory, since you are quite literally earning it.

Aside from the Bloodlines example you mentioned, two examples I can think of from Bioware games would be the Ser Cauthrien battle and Kal Reegar in ME2. Ser Cauthrien was by all means a "supposed to lose" fight, yet it was possible to beat it if you were good enough. With Kal Reegar, letting him fight alongside you and having him survive is another favorite moment of mine. They are both very satisfying moments that lets you tie in gameplay and narrative. Sure, in both these cases the effect can be somewhat lessened by the fact that you can bypass any negative aspects even without beating a tough fight (surrendering vs Cauthrien or telling Reegar to just stay back), but imo they're both good examples of how to properly offer an optimal outcome as a reward for a good player performance (one that actually involves effort, not just following a guide).

Of course, casual difficulty can nullify this but nothing's perfect.

[Inprea]

Of course, casual difficulty can nullify this but nothing's perfect.

 

That's actually one of the reasons I hate difficulty sliders. It seems like the only thing you earn is achievements with current games. Well some are exceptions. Diablo 3 for example only awards a chance at certain items if you take the difficulty up to torment.

[Zjarcal]

That's actually one of the reasons I hate difficulty sliders. It seems like the only thing you earn is achievements with current games. Well some are exceptions. Diablo 3 for example only awards a chance at certain items if you take the difficulty up to torment.

You know, I really wouldn't mind if the "best" endings were only achievable in the higher difficulties. 

 

I'm sure if there was a dislike function this post would get like a 100 dislikes. 

 

In all seriousness, I don't hate sliders but I definitely would like it if there were actual in game rewards to playing on the higher levels (be it with item rewards or story outcomes).

 

Anyway, I doubt DAI will be like this at all, but it's a nice thought.