131 réponses à ce sujet

[x Raizer x]

I think a huge military expedition, with permission of the Dwarves and including the Dwarves should be put together.  Immediately, if possible.  The Blight just ended so The Darkspawn are at a weakened disadvantage.

I say lets go into their depths where nobody has treat in thousands of years.  Lets reclaim ancient forgotten Thaigs, and their treasures, lore, and knowledge.  Lets solve the Darkspawn mystery by going to where they live, and lets finish them off completely.

It makes sense, and should have been done already.  Why just let the world keep getting close to the brink of annihilation over and over again?  Solve the problem!  Doctors don't just cut out the tumor, they treat the cancer to finish it off.

[AresKeith]

I don't know, the Architect struck me more as the ultimate "big picture" guy. His ultimate goal seems to be a degree of peace between the darkspawn and everyone else, but he's willing to climb over a mountain of bodies to get there.

Unless he wants to taint the world again

[Gannayev of Dreams]

I definitely agree that the surface world needs to aid the Dwarven kingdoms.  They need to become more involved in Dwarven society in general.  Not only because it is the right thing to do, but because everyone stands to gain much from larger-scale cultural exchange with them.  Dwarves would be far more likely to abolish the caste system with more outsider influence, and the rest of Thedas would benefit greatly from the extensive knowledge and skill of their architects and craftsman.

 

I'll admit I'm very biased, but I think Dwarven culture has far too much to offer Thedas to let them live in decline and isolation.  Far too much to let them go extinct.

[myahele]

In the end its up tomthe ruler. Dwarves are isolationist and rarely leave orzahmmar, especially the noble caste.

Do they need help? Yes, but thats really up to the people in Orzammer. They get enough money from trade. Their cast offs are treated with respect. If Bhelen allows humans to join the legion of the dead then that'll be great.

[Elite Midget]

Isn't there only like 2 Dwarven Kingdoms left?

 

Whatever the case, the surfacers tend to care for what effects them at the time. With the Blight over they don't see the merit of using resources and the such to fight what seems like an endless amount of Darkness. They're foolishly content leaving the Darkspawn in the Deep Roads and it will be their undoing.

[x Raizer x]

Isn't there only like 2 Dwarven Kingdoms left?

 

Whatever the case, the surfacers tend to care for what effects them at the time. With the Blight over they don't see the merit of using resources and the such to fight what seems like an endless amount of Darkness. They're foolishly content leaving the Darkspawn in the Deep Roads and it will be their undoing.

 

Only two known ones left.  I could have sworn they found another Thaig, but the population was so small that they just moved into one of the larger two Thaigs.  Still, that means the possibility of other surviving Thaigs exists.  The Deep Roads are huge, and there are portions of it that nobody has explored since literal ancient times.  Pre-Exalted Age for sure.

[Vortex13]

Wait so on the deep roads there is veil torn as well? But i doubt that it will be near Branka as i said bio tend to be lazy and would create 2 sections of the game where branka is alive with army of golems and for those that destroyed anvil.

 

You don't need army for this you need Inquisitor only s/he can crush army of golems and harvesters.   

 

We know of a Veil breach occurring at the bottom of a lake, I don't think it would be too far fetched to say that similar portals can crop up in the Deep Roads.

 

I hope that BioWare takes into account more than just a binary state of: The Anvil is destroyed = no golems, or The Anvil is not destroyed = golems. I would like to see other factors come into play such as whether Belhan or Harromount is king, whether Shale is still alive and if you did her 'loyalty mission', etc. I would also hope that these various world states would react to the presence of demons pouring out into the world, rather than self contained plot lines that have no bearing on DA:I's plot apart from being a slight nod to the previous games.

 

As far as the Inquisitor goes, yeah s/he is the ultimate bada** and you can single handedly defeat an entire army, but in speaking of roleplaying and building up the Inquisition's forces, my character is going to want Golems and lots of them. 

[LobselVith8]

Only two known ones left.  I could have sworn they found another Thaig, but the population was so small that they just moved into one of the larger two Thaigs.  Still, that means the possibility of other surviving Thaigs exists.  The Deep Roads are huge, and there are portions of it that nobody has explored since literal ancient times.  Pre-Exalted Age for sure.

 

There are only two Great Thaigs still standing; depending on the outcome of certain situations, some thaigs can be reclaimed, but they aren't the same as the Great Thaigs (like Orzammar and Kal-Sharok).

[teenparty]

A dwarf can ask Anora or Alistair to send aid to the dwarf. Harramont will refuse, but Bhelen will accept.

 

The Bhelen scenario is honestly the best thing Bioware has ever written. Because the results are amazing.

 

Most people support Bhelen. I do as well. But Bhelen is a horrible, evil, conniving slug.

He's a brutal dictator, arrogant, self serving, and rules trough fear. He dissolved the Assembly and essentially removed any form of democracy. He murders anyone who might be a threat to him, and wipes out their entire family.

 

But in spite of all this, people still support him because he is more willing to trade with the surface, and has eased (not removed) caste restrictions. Basically allowing casteless defend Orzammar.

 

Its brilliant.

 

I hope that the ultimate take-a-way from Bhelens rule is "Was it worth it?"

If you support Harramont he may use the golems to purge Dustown. Harramont is more honorable, but he is not good. Bhelen is a cynical, self-serving pragmatist, but he is not a sadist.

[TheodoricFriede]

 

 

If you support Harramont he may use the golems to purge Dustown. Harramont is more honorable, but he is not good. Bhelen is a cynical, self-serving pragmatist, but he is not a sadist.

Neither are really all that "good". Thats why its my favorite choice in the entire series.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Neither are really all that "good". Thats why its my favorite choice in the entire series.

It wasn't even hard choice incompetent dic*** vs competent di***  simple choice for me...

[TheodoricFriede]

It wasn't even hard choice incompetent dic*** vs competent di***  simple choice for me...

i am very happy for you its great that its so easy for you to make choices but some people like to think about the choices they make in game past the surface of it

[TheKomandorShepard]

i am very happy for you its great that its so easy for you to make choices but some people like to think about the choices they make in game past the surface of it

You talk that choice is briliant but there is nothing briliant about it isn't even complex Harrowmont have rly nothing to offer even to characters that are concerned about morality etc not mention practical characters it is rather clear here Behlen is pretty much 1 of two choices that offer something.In fact it would be much much better if both got sympathetic ground that makes you like them but in the end you have to screw one that would be difficult decision.

[FraQ]

They do.

 

I love the idea of there being Lost Thaigs out there full of artifacts, mystery, and monsters.

 

It makes me want to go out and explore them.

 

Then I reflect upon how the Deep Roads sections have been my least favorite parts of the DA games and I want to just collapse the tunnels and be done with it.

 

[TheodoricFriede]

You talk that choice is briliant but there is nothing briliant about it isn't even complex Harrowmont have rly nothing to offer even to characters that are concerned about morality etc not mention practical characters it is rather clear here Behlen is pretty much 1 of two choices that offer something.In fact it would be much much better if both got sympathetic ground that makes you like them but in the end you have to screw one that would be difficult decision.

Well, you are certainly entitled you your opinion.

 

Given what i have seen from your previous opinions, im frankly not surprised.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Personally, I would rather it be the Messenger that ends up helping then the Architect. The Messenger was fully aware of what he was, and what others viewed him as, but he still wanted to help. The Architect was more interested in forcing peace by turning everyone into Darkspawn hybrids, then actually trying to offer any olive branches. Plus the part of me that roots for the underdog wants to see the 'common' Messenger beat the 'übermench' Architect/Corypheus in terms of both importance to the story, and in combat as well. 

The Messenger was awesome. If you let him go, he becomes Thedas' version of Batman. I would love it if he showed up in Inquisition. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Personally i think the time after the Qunari are finally wiped from Thedas should be focused entirely on the Darkspawn, the Chantry can rally the Nations together for a "final" exalted march on the Darkspawn in combination with the Wardens and Dwarven Kingdoms.

 

Push them back further and further until finally the old empire is fully reclaimed and when the last darkspawn is dead, only then will the holy purge end.

[Daerog]

Personally i think the time after the Qunari are finally wiped from Thedas should be focused entirely on the Darkspawn, the Chantry can rally the Nations together for a "final" exalted march on the Darkspawn in combination with the Wardens and Dwarven Kingdoms.

 

Push them back further and further until finally the old empire is fully reclaimed and when the last darkspawn is dead, only then will the holy purge end.

 

Then a grand ceremony of honor and respect for the Grey Wardens, after which they are all killed and burned.

[Master Warder Z_]

Then a grand ceremony of honor and respect for the Grey Wardens, after which they are all killed and burned.

 

Seems like a good a place for it to end as any.

[Hazegurl]

Not only would I give them aid but I would help them over mages and elves. They have been dealing with the darkspawn for years and the last thing we need is a Blight on top of all these fade tears and demons. Also, depending on the actions of the Warden we could have a new sapient species of darkspawn to deal with, a group who could amass an army and fight at any time. The dwarves have a direct line to them so it would benefit us all to clear the way down there so we can keep a better eye on them

[Dean_the_Young]

I think a huge military expedition, with permission of the Dwarves and including the Dwarves should be put together.  Immediately, if possible.  The Blight just ended so The Darkspawn are at a weakened disadvantage.

I say lets go into their depths where nobody has treat in thousands of years.  Lets reclaim ancient forgotten Thaigs, and their treasures, lore, and knowledge.  Lets solve the Darkspawn mystery by going to where they live, and lets finish them off completely.

It makes sense, and should have been done already.  Why just let the world keep getting close to the brink of annihilation over and over again?  Solve the problem!  Doctors don't just cut out the tumor, they treat the cancer to finish it off.

 

Then why are you advocating a severe gouging?

 

The Darkspawn aren't powerful because they infest the forgotten Thaigs- they invest the forgotten Thaigs because they are powerful. Their power doesn't come from standing armies or productive or infrastructure- it comes from disease and corruption the ability to reproduce and replace losses at prodigious rates. The Darkspawn at their weakest overthrew the Dwarves at their height, and crippled Tevinter, the most powerful nation Thedas has ever seen, into a permanent decline for good measure.

 

The Darkspawn have numbers far surpassing any other, but lack organization. That is the saving grace for the surface- the Darkspawn mostly spend their time divided against themselves. Attacking them ends that- the chaos attacks you, rather then itself. The Blight corrupts your armies, gradually forcing you to either kill them or see them turn to the enemy's side. Raids and skirmishes would be constant from all sides, and every female captured and converted is an entire new enemy force. Without knowledge of all the Deep Roads, and the changes since the Darkspawn took over, every campaign would be one of new, uncharted territory that would see even a victorious army devastated in return for a temporary reprieve and a defeated army outright strengthen the Darkspawn.

 

It's not clear the combined numbers of Thedas could beat the Darkspawn as it is. The Blight we faced was the smallest in history- it had nothing close to the apocalyptic levels of destruction that might have made a sizable, temporary as they would be, dent in the Darkspawn who exist in all the deep roads under all of Thedas. What is clear is that reclaiming forgotten Thaigs won't help that along: the Darkspawn threat is one of birth rates and magical disease and massive body counts, and all the treasure and Blight-infected stone won't help mitigate it. In fact, the Blight-infected roads would likely, you know, infect the forces invading it.

 

Nor would the lost lore of the Thaigs necessarily be relevant to that. Even the Dwarves at their height didn't know where the Darkspawn truly came from, and whatever they knew certainly didn't turn the tide in their favor. Even the Anvil of the Void was a stopgap measure. While more codex entries are cool and a nice source of XP for the protagonist, they really don't enable a strategic advantage by default... and, as we've seen in Witch Hunt and DA2, some of the things lost and forgotten were probably for the best in regards to political stability.

 

Then, of course, there's the opportunity cost in doing all of this. Which is to say, as everyone spends huge sums of blood and treasure to reclaim deep roads that can not be secured by attritional warfare, that is huge amounts of human and financial capital that can't be used in other endeavors. Like economic and social development. Or infrastructure. Or securing borders. Or crisis management. Or in managing anyone and everyone who doesn't devote as many resources as you do to this effort. Any rival who doesn't spend the same sort of effort you do would be well placed to look meaningfully at your borders and suggest some 'helpful' improvements... and with your army busy trying to not be rolled back by the Darkspawn, you either can't use them or abandon your own deep roads efforts.

 

So it's an extremely high-cost military endeavor, with few rewards until ultimate success (which may or may not be possible), and very prone to abuse and exploitation by the people who aren't investing so much in it.

 

Not really a cure, per see.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'd help them if they agree to demolish the caste system. 

 

And if they didn't? Would you let them fall?

 

Playing from a weak position can make even a weak hand strong if the other person cares more about something than you do. In this case, the fate of the lower castes. So long as the Dwarves can link outside aid to their survival (which, by all indications, is true), they have you by the shorthairs.

 

 

If you give aid and the Dwarves keep the caste system, you'll feel like you and the lower castes lost. And if you give aid and the Dwarves abandon the caste system, you'll feel like the lower castes won won.

 

But if you don't give any aid to the Dwarves, and they are destroyed by the Darkspawn as a result, then the lower caste looses as well. The lower castes are butchered, enslaved, and raped by the Blight. There is no scenario in which the fall of Orzammar to the Darkspawn is a 'win' for the lower castes.

 

So long as you care more about the lower castes than the upper castes do, withholding aid isn't a credible threat. If you're inclined to give aid to allow them to survive free, it's unlikely you're going to withhold aid and watch them suffer a fate worse than death (and worse than the status quo). A threat of invasion is also not credible- besides the risk that attempting so would risk losing Orzammar to the Dark Spawn, taking ownership of Orzammar would also mean taking ownership of the endless war against the Darkspawn. Which you are also extremely unlikely to want, even before the casteless are threatened with worse-than-death if you don't keep the war.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So why exactly does the Dwarves deserve aid?

[Master Warder Z_]

So why exactly does the Dwarves deserve aid?

 

Their the meat shield for the surface against Darkspawn.

 

At the very least they need to be supported so they don't all die and the Darkspawn block the Lyrium trade.

[Dean_the_Young]

So why exactly does the Dwarves deserve aid?

 

Moral, practical, strategic, and self-interested reasons.

 

Morally, no one 'deserves' to die to the Darkspawn. I would hope this wouldn't be controversial. Not the moral, not the evil, not the innocent, not the corrupt, not the very top, not those at the very bottom. The Darkspawn are not some karmic moral-retributive force, and even if they were I would still disagree with it. If you care about any dwarves below the surface, including the casteless, you should be willing to match that care with aid to help them not be destroyed by the genocide that is Darkspawn expanion.

 

Practically, strategic, and self-interested reasons blend together, but basically the Dwarves are the biggest hot-spot and focus of the Darkspawn attention in the years of peace. While I doubt the Dwarven claim that Orzammar serves as the barrier between the Darkspawn and the surface (there are plenty of other exits from the Deep Roads other than Orzammar), aiding the Dwarves does mean they will fight a conflict that you will not. It does seem to help keep the Darkspawn distracted away from the surface, which is good.

 

There's also the point that the Dwarves are pretty much the sole supplier of lyrium. This isn't necessarily the case forever- but no one has exactly created a human mining industry to find the stuff either. Lyrium itself is a strategic resource that, regardless of all other thoughts of the social issues of magic, is a potent tool for both bolstering magics (where the only alternative is the riskier blood magic) and in mitigating magical threats (through Templar-like abilities). Lyrium is not just a strategic asset, but a major factor in social stability and addressing concerns of out-of-control magics.

 

Aiding the Dwarves or Orzammar so that they don't lose their fight is simultaneously a morally good deed, a cost-saving alternative to Dwarven defeat, and an enabler of social stability at home.