So why exactly does the Dwarves deserve aid?
Their the meat shield for the surface against Darkspawn.
At the very least they need to be supported so they don't all die and the Darkspawn block the Lyrium trade.
If they are the sole bulwark against the Darkspawn, then they are doing a shoddy job. Just look at the Anderfels, who have to contend with Darkspawn as often as the Dwarves. And the Lyrium trade has kept flowing for hundreds of years without major military intervention. Evidently the monetary support the Dwarves get through this trade is adequate for them to shore up their own defenses.
Moral, practical, strategic, and self-interested reasons.
Morally, no one 'deserves' to die to the Darkspawn. I would hope this wouldn't be controversial. Not the moral, not the evil, not the innocent, not the corrupt, not the very top, not those at the very bottom. The Darkspawn are not some karmic moral-retributive force, and even if they were I would still disagree with it. If you care about any dwarves below the surface, including the casteless, you should be willing to match that care with aid to help them not be destroyed by the genocide that is Darkspawn expanion.
Practically, strategic, and self-interested reasons blend together, but basically the Dwarves are the biggest hot-spot and focus of the Darkspawn attention in the years of peace. While I doubt the Dwarven claim that Orzammar serves as the barrier between the Darkspawn and the surface (there are plenty of other exits from the Deep Roads other than Orzammar), aiding the Dwarves does mean they will fight a conflict that you will not. It does seem to help keep the Darkspawn distracted away from the surface, which is good.
There's also the point that the Dwarves are pretty much the sole supplier of lyrium. This isn't necessarily the case forever- but no one has exactly created a human mining industry to find the stuff either. Lyrium itself is a strategic resource that, regardless of all other thoughts of the social issues of magic, is a potent tool for both bolstering magics (where the only alternative is the riskier blood magic) and in mitigating magical threats (through Templar-like abilities). Lyrium is not just a strategic asset, but a major factor in social stability and addressing concerns of out-of-control magics.
Aiding the Dwarves or Orzammar so that they don't lose their fight is simultaneously a morally good deed, a cost-saving alternative to Dwarven defeat, and an enabler of social stability at home.
There are Dwarves outside of Orzammar. Dig a hole deep enough and you will dinf Lyrium. WHen you find Lyrium hire surface Dwarves.
And I don't see it as a morally good deed, beyond that helping ANY person is a good deed. I see it as completely foolish. I wouldn't send a man, who insisted on living in an igloo in Sahara my precious water, just so that he could make more ice.
If the Dwarves insist on living udnerground, the natural habitat of the Darkspawn, then they will have to contend with the Darkspawn for the living space. Simple as that.
Well I guess if you look at it one way then no one would be deserving of aid; not the humans, not the elves, not the Mages, not the Templars, etc.
I would say that out of all the races of Thedas the dwarves are the most threatened with extinction.
They are indeed, and they've brought it upon themselves.
Well I guess if you look at it one way then no one would be deserving of aid; not the humans, not the elves, not the Mages, not the Templars, etc.
I would say that out of all the races of Thedas the dwarves are the most threatened with extinction.
Nah. Genocide, for sure, but even if Orzammar (and whatever that other city is) fall, there are dwarves on the surface and they don't lose their race through inter-breeding.
Elves, though- whether by violence or integration, the elven phenotype can only last at the elimination of the human phenotype. Even, especially, if things get better, the viability of the species will get worse- at least until someone figures out what magical influence made elves in the first place, and/or could prevent the process of human phenotype dominating.
There are Dwarves outside of Orzammar. Dig a hole deep enough and you will dinf Lyrium. WHen you find Lyrium hire surface Dwarves.
And I don't see it as a morally good deed, beyond that helping ANY person is a good deed. I see it as completely foolish. I wouldn't send a man, who insisted on living in an igloo in Sahara my precious water, just so that he could make more ice.
If the Dwarves insist on living udnerground, the natural habitat of the Darkspawn, then they will have to contend with the Darkspawn for the living space. Simple as that.
That's nice.
That's nice.
Not attempting to be. But since apparently your moral obligations is keeping you busy saving the world, I find it amazing you have time to be snide.
They are indeed, and they've brought it upon themselves.
I wouldn't put the Dwarven decline squarely as the fault of the Dwarves; unless we are also going to say that all the Elven issues are because of the Elves, and all the Mage issues are because of the Mages.
There are Dwarves outside of Orzammar. Dig a hole deep enough and you will dinf Lyrium. WHen you find Lyrium hire surface Dwarves.
And I don't see it as a morally good deed, beyond that helping ANY person is a good deed. I see it as completely foolish. I wouldn't send a man, who insisted on living in an igloo in Sahara my precious water, just so that he could make more ice.
If the Dwarves insist on living udnerground, the natural habitat of the Darkspawn, then they will have to contend with the Darkspawn for the living space. Simple as that.
The devs said surface dwarves lose their resistance to lyrium as they aren't living in close proximity to it.
In order to mine lyrium, you need dwarves who live underground.
If you let the dwarves die out, you will lose all your templars, grey wardens, and the mages won't have any lyrium to use at all, so they'll have to find a substitute, and the most likely substitute for lyrium is blood magic.
Even if your conscience allows you to let an entire race of people, an entire culture die out of pettyness, pragmatism still dictates it's better to help them, as you would lose all templars to support unsanctioned or rogue mages, you'd have a rise of blood mages, and the next blight would be indefinite because you would lose all ability to create new Grey Wardens to fight the Archdemon.
Not attempting to be. But since apparently your moral obligations is keeping you busy saving the world, I find it amazing you have time to be snide.
Oh, I'm a great multi-tasker, especially when I'm not obligated to keep busy saving the world and all. Or being snide. You asked a question. I answered with an opinion. You replied with a retort that was less a counter-argument and more an assertion of opinion. To which I said... that's nice. Congrats to you for having an opinion that differs from mine. I'm not challenging it, even if I felt it was weakly supported, and certainly not on terms of moral obligations.
As I've said before elsewhere, I view 'deserve' as a overly-loaded word frequently misused, similar to 'must' and 'have to.' The fact that you linked 'deserve' as I used it, as a justification for voluntary action, to some sort of practical obligation is exactly why I tend to avoid it.
I wouldn't put the Dwarven decline squarely as the fault of the Dwarves; unless we are also going to say that all the Elven issues are because of the Elves, and all the Mage issues are because of the Mages.
Most of the issues Elves face WAS brought on to them by themselves. But now they are perpetrated by humans. Which is why Elves (City Elves at least) are worthy of aid.
The Darkspawn threat was initiated by human mages true, but the Dwarves did recieve aid at first, but when the Dwarves insisted on living underground, they are themselves perpetuating their problems. Meaning it is their own mess to fix.
The devs said surface dwarves lose their resistance to lyrium as they aren't living in close proximity to it.
In order to mine lyrium, you need dwarves who live underground.
If you let the dwarves die out, you will lose all your templars, grey wardens, and the mages won't have any lyrium to use at all, so they'll have to find a substitute, and the most likely substitute for lyrium is blood magic.
Even if your conscience allows you to let an entire race of people, an entire culture die out of pettyness, pragmatism still dictates it's better to help them, as you would lose all templars to support unsanctioned or rogue mages, you'd have a rise of blood mages, and the next blight would be indefinite because you would lose all ability to create new Grey Wardens to fight the Archdemon.
Then make underground dwellings for the surface Dwarves. Like in Minrathous. Or get the tranquil to mine Lyrium.
And I am not letting the Dwarves die. Far from it. They keep recieveing cold hard cash from the surface, with which they can supply their own armies. I am not, however, sending my people to fix the mess the Dwarves have created for themselves.
Or do you expect the Dwarves to send aid to the Dalish? Or the Rivaini? Just beacuse a culture may die out does NOT make it worth saving.
Then make underground dwellings for the surface Dwarves. Like in Minrathous. Or get the tranquil to mine Lyrium.
And I am not letting the Dwarves die. Far from it. They keep recieveing cold hard cash from the surface, with which they can supply their own armies. I am not, however, sending my people to fix the mess the Dwarves have created for themselves.
Or do you expect the Dwarves to send aid to the Dalish? Or the Rivaini? Just beacuse a culture may die out does NOT make it worth saving.
So your answer is to create another Great Thaig or city for surface dwarves to live in, dwarves who are perfectly happy being topside and generally have no desire whatsoever to move underground. Then give them the generation or so to build up lyrium resistance, all the while fighting darkspawn as well?
You'd end up with the exact same issue. Endless waves of darkspawn attacking them, Reduced fertility making it hard to keep up numbers. Adding in the need to build up lyrium resistance over a generation or so AND also convincing enough of them to settle in the Deep Roads.
It'd be far easier to aid Orzammar.
As for who the dwarves would send aid, well they sent aid to the Warden who helped them. I don't expect they'd aid the Dalish, the Rivaini or whoever, but they're more likely to aid Ferelden after the fifth blight because Ferelden aids them if the dwarven Warden requests it.
No other surface country does.
Agreed. Bhelen was one of hell of a pragmatist, but I do think he's much better for Orzammar than Harrowmont.
Yup, choosing Harrowmont is--to put it frankly--inane. I chose him the first time, simply b/c he was nice and Bhelen a ******. Boy, did I regret it when I completed the game and read the epilogue. Second play through I tried to follow more in what happened in the Orzammar quest line, without meta gaming too much, and Bhelen did say these things to improve on the lives of low borns and actually promises soldiers to help with the Blight. Harrowmont doesn't in fact.
So your answer is to create another Great Thaig or city for surface dwarves to live in, dwarves who are perfectly happy being topside and generally have no desire whatsoever to move underground. Then give them the generation or so to build up lyrium resistance, all the while fighting darkspawn as well?
You'd end up with the exact same issue. Endless waves of darkspawn attacking them, Reduced fertility making it hard to keep up numbers. Adding in the need to build up lyrium resistance over a generation or so AND also convincing enough of them to settle in the Deep Roads.
It'd be far easier to aid Orzammar.
As for who the dwarves would send aid, well they sent aid to the Warden who helped them. I don't expect they'd aid the Dalish, the Rivaini or whoever, but they're more likely to aid Ferelden after the fifth blight because Ferelden aids them if the dwarven Warden requests it.
No other surface country does.
If the Dwarves don't want to live udnerground then don't do it? No one would force them to, but if they want to retain their "stone sense", and have a chance at the(probably) lucrative line of work of Lyrium mining, then the Dwarf will want to. And there is absolutely ZERO evidence of the Darkspawn ever harassing the Dwarven ambassadors of Minrathous, who live udnerground there, so that is a moot point you try to bring up.
Nor did I say they had to settle in the Deep Roads (since that would be source of the EXACT problems I wanted to avoid) but UNDERGROUND. Ideally in specifically constructed housings for that purose. If it isn't connected to the Deep Roads, Darkspawn wont be more of a threat than they usually are.
Also this would break the Chantry and Orzammar's monopol on the Lyrium trade, creating a fair buyer's market.
And if it turns out to be impossible to maintain the Dwarves' stone sense, then get the Tranquil who wants to, to mine the Lyrium.
I'm sure they can just all go to the surface and establish their new kingdom(s) on the free land claimed by no one, that one right next to the flourishing Dalish empire.If the Dwarves don't want to live udnerground then don't do it? No one would force them to (..)
I'm sure they can just all go to the surface and establish their new kingdom(s) on the free land claimed by no one, that one right next to the flourishing Dalish empire.
No they can't, that ship has sailed. All they can do now is integrate into already established societies, or remain in Orzammar.
It's not up to them whether they'd even be allowed to "integrate", so painting it as some sort of choice they have is quite disingenuous.No they can't, that ship has sailed. All they can do now is integrate into already established societies, or remain in Orzammar.
It's not up to them whether they'd even be allowed to "integrate", so painting it as some sort of choice they have is quite disingenuous.
Not to mention even if that was an option, it effectively means they have "choice" of continuing to be their own masters at heavy price, or to be pariahs on someone else's land and at their mercy. Yeah, can't figure out why they'd rather stick with the former.
Doesn't seem like surface Dwarves are pariahs generally, so that is probably a non-issue. IT actually seems that most nations a glad to welcome Dwarves because they bring with them their crafts and expertise.
The devs said surface dwarves lose their resistance to lyrium as they aren't living in close proximity to it.
In order to mine lyrium, you need dwarves who live underground.
If you let the dwarves die out, you will lose all your templars, grey wardens, and the mages won't have any lyrium to use at all, so they'll have to find a substitute, and the most likely substitute for lyrium is blood magic.
Even if your conscience allows you to let an entire race of people, an entire culture die out of pettyness, pragmatism still dictates it's better to help them, as you would lose all templars to support unsanctioned or rogue mages, you'd have a rise of blood mages, and the next blight would be indefinite because you would lose all ability to create new Grey Wardens to fight the Archdemon.
Well I've always thought of that Dev comment this way.
There are no human mining operations based around Lyrium, so therefore there aren't humans who have been exposed to it for a few dozen generations, i don't view dwarves vital to the process of mining and refining Lyrium anymore then i view Cabbage as a decent substitute for apples in pie.
They just happen to have a niche at the moment due to no one else bothering with it, Although who knows, Maybe the Qunari have Lyrium operations, I doubt they have many "underground dwelling dwarves" out there.
Surface dwarves are few and in-between, as such not drawing attention to themselves. Drop a kingdom worth of them onto someone else's land though and the number of "a drunk dwarf hit on my wife", "some dwarf thugs robbed me on the road" and "the dwarves are taking human jobs!" rise exponentially, along with racial tensions.Doesn't seem like surface Dwarves are pariahs generally, so that is probably a non-issue. IT actually seems that most nations a glad to welcome Dwarves because they bring with them their crafts and expertise.
The devs said surface dwarves lose their resistance to lyrium as they aren't living in close proximity to it.
In order to mine lyrium, you need dwarves who live underground.
'Can't you feel the rock dust in your lungs?
It'll cut down a miner when he is still young
Two years and the silicosis takes hold
and I feel like I'm dying from mining for gold
Yes, I feel like I'm dying from mining for gold.'
Surface dwarves are few and in-between, as such not drawing attention to themselves. Drop a kingdom worth of them onto someone else's land though and the number of "a drunk dwarf hit on my wife", "some dwarf thugs robbed me on the road" and "the dwarves are taking human jobs!" rise exponentially, along with racial tensions.
Orzammar isn't going to disappear overnight you know?
A day, a few months or even years, end effect is you still have huge bunch of dwarves on someone else's land. And not for a week or even a decade, but forever. That's the whole point of your proposed alternative after all, isn't it? That they stop living underground in Orzammar. Not a "they stop living underground in Orzammar except when it might turn out inconvenient".Orzammar isn't going to disappear overnight you know?
A day, a few months or even years, end effect is you still have huge bunch of dwarves on someone else's land. And not for a week or even a decade, but forever. That's the whole point of your proposed alternative after all, isn't it? That they stop living underground in Orzammar. Not a "they stop living underground in Orzammar except when it might turn out inconvenient".
Uhm... no? I never proposed that Orzammar ceased existing. I said that its continued existance is NOT the problem of the surface world, and that there are alternatives to the Lyrium Orzammar provides.
Really? You could've fooled me.Uhm... no? I never proposed that Orzammar ceased existing.
The Darkspawn threat was initiated by human mages true, but the Dwarves did recieve aid at first, but when the Dwarves insisted on living underground, they are themselves perpetuating their problems. Meaning it is their own mess to fix.
If the Dwarves don't want to live udnerground then don't do it?
Really? You could've fooled me.
How exactly do you imagine the Dwarves stop living underground in order to "fix their mess" and "stop perpetuating their problems" and yet Orzammar, their underground kingdom, not becoming abandoned as the result?
Keyword being: IF. IF the Dwarves don't want to live underground, then don't. If they want to live there, then do so, but accept that they are themselves perpetuating their problems.
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