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How to make ME4 without it being a cop-out.


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#101
KaiserShep

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Why was the collector plot scant?

Anyway, it's okay if you like ME3, but I am perplex as to why you don't think that ME2 (and ME1 too, of course) clearly had a superior narrative design.

 

As another poster mentioned, the missions that actually tied directly into the Collector plot were few and far between. Most of the game was recruitment and loyalty missions while we waited for the Illusive Man to interrupt us and send us on our way, and Mordin and Tali were really the only ones that had missions that tied to something greater in the setting. What hurt the whole recruitment narrative the most was the fact that aside from Mordin and Okeer, we were never really given a compelling, specific reason for the other characters we're looking to recruit, and then Okeer even turned out to be useless (and dead). To that end, only Legion and Grunt get a pass for being accidental recruits, rather than ones we get based on a dossier. Heck, Jack is a character that we have no really strong reason to take aboard, while having quite a few not to. In a sense, I think of it like the Ocean's 11 type of narrative. You have characters who are specialized in specific tasks, and you gather them based on an operation that you've planned out. The Collector base, being an unknown, throws all of that out of the airlock, so you're just casting a wide net because of reasons. Seems like fun, and it is, but it's also mindless and dumb if you put too much thought into it.

 

 

ME2 has many very well written and interesting characters with meaningful character arcs and also numerous great and varied story arcs, which are supported by excellently designed and fleshed out locations and dialogue. Heck, even minor characters were very interesting in ME2.
I have no idea how ME3 could possibly have the better or equal narrative design with boring characters like James Vega and Steve Cortez, Cerberus the evil Sith Empire as a major story arc and fetch quests galore with badly written and boring dialogue, just to name a few things. The genophage story arc in ME3 was good and the conclusion was satisfying, the beginning of the mission on Luna too, that's about it though.

 

As I said, ME2's parts had quite a lot to them. It's the sum of them all that I take issue with. My favorite mission in the game is Mordin's loyalty mission, because his soul searching and ethical dilemmas regarding the genophage were probably the best-written part of the entire game, better than the whole Collector plot or any other loyalty mission combined.

 

 

ME3's level design is just a sequence of corridors without much variety. The levels were also quite obtuse.

 

But that's exactly what ME2's had, only with greater repetition of the cover elements. Heck even the Citadel was like this. ME3's Citadel wasn't the best thing ever, but the maps were at least larger and more open than the building levels. Omega had a great atmosphere, but it was also too cramped for what is basically a massive city in an asteroid.

 

 

 Sure, the game could have been harder.

 

It's not just a matter of difficulty, but also a matter of having the variety of enemies unfold in a pace that ensures that we can face something new throughout the game. It's the reason why our first bout with Cerberus in ME3 doesn't have phantoms and nemeses all over the place, and why we don't have banshees and brutes in the prologue.

 

 

 
Having only one ending with no choice between red/green/blue would have had lasting effects on the galaxy too. ^^

Anyway, there is no real choice in ME3, because no matter what you do in ME3 or the previous games, the outcome is the same, you just choose between red / green / blue. They change a bit depending on your war assets, but that's it.

 

 

I'd be the first to criticize the hell out of the war asset system, because I hate it, but I also hate that multiplayer ties into it at all. However, that doesn't have anything to do with the other big choices you make in the game. If you destroy or control or synthesize everything, the effect on the galaxy at large may be affected by arbitrary numbers, but the characters who live to see it are entirely up to you. The krogan don't go extinct because of the war assets; they do so because you betrayed them.  The quarians get destroyed over Rannoch because you chose to side with the geth and were unable to get them to stand down. Before the Extended Cut, I would have agreed that cutting the story off so briefly basically created a huge vacuum where the follow-up would be, but that's not true anymore.

 

The outcome being the same argument is not really a compelling one, because I can name another game that has a single outcome with only a variety of details: Dragon Age: Origins. There is only one outcome: the archdemon dies. But, it doesn't matter, because so many other things can change as a result of your choices prior. That's like saying that it doesn't matter if you wiped out the Dalish and sided with the werewolves, or which king you chose for Orzammar, or whether or not Alistair became king, because the game only has one ending.


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#102
Mcfly616

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ME2 is easily the biggest detriment to the central narrative and overall plot of the entire trilogy. 



#103
ElitePinecone

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Good Terrible to see that two and a half years hasn't made a jot of difference to the insanely derpy conspiracy theories. 

 

Originally I wanted the ending to be different because it was abrupt, nonsensical and brutally disregarded three games of stories, but now I'm mostly just annoyed that in being so ambiguous it gave rise to so many ridiculous interpretations. 

 

I almost understand why the community team and writers refused to confirm or deny anything in March 2012 (don't ****** off anybody further, keep digging upwards) but it's high time to stop coddling people. If there's a serious proposal to design the next game's narrative around not stepping on the toes of a half-baked forum rant called Indoctrination Theory and the "every interpretation is valid" nonsense, I'm just about done with the series for good. 


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#104
Iakus

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Good Terrible to see that two and a half years hasn't made a jot of difference to the insanely derpy conspiracy theories. 

 

Originally I wanted the ending to be different because it was abrupt, nonsensical and brutally disregarded three games of stories, but now I'm mostly just annoyed that in being so ambiguous it gave rise to so many ridiculous interpretations. 

 

I almost understand why the community team and writers refused to confirm or deny anything in March 2012 (don't ****** off anybody further, keep digging upwards) but it's high time to stop coddling people. If there's a serious proposal to design the next game's narrative around not stepping on the toes of a half-baked forum rant called Indoctrination Theory and the "every interpretation is valid" nonsense, I'm just about done with the series for good. 

 

In part, that's why I think MENExt should completely disregard the trilogy and be its own original story.  There is simply too much baggage.



#105
ElitePinecone

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I'm hoping that's what they're doing. 

 

At this point I'm irrationally grumpy about it, probably. The community team completely dropped the ball in not coming out in April 2012 with a clear and unambiguous explanation of what the endings were, why they were doing them, and how they'd be moving forward. I know the reaction was unexpected and I understand why the writers of all people have been silent for two years, but they missed their one chance to control the narrative and the result has been a whole bunch of super hardcore fans who can't even agree on what happened in ME3, let alone on what should be done next.

 

All that's going to result from ME Dentist's eventual announcement is someone getting upset, and at this point I don't blame them. This should've ended two years ago and the studio is doing nobody any favours by continuing to be coy, let alone by insisting that many contradictory interpretations of what happened are simultaneously true because we're all special snowflakes. 

 

(Heck, I can deal with being disappointed if it's accompanied by the appearance that Bioware's narrative team actually have some semblance of forward planning, introspection or any idea at all of what they intended to do when they wrote ME3.)



#106
Mcfly616

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 Easiest way to go about the next game is to just set it in the universe we know and love before the Reapers came and blew it to hell, before Shepard changed it forever. Tell a totally separate tale with an entirely new cast and new focus. The people who ****** and moan about wanting to play through the aftermath of ME3 will just have to get over their pointless quips about it.

 

And they are quite pointless. Setting it after ME3 will inevitably cause more problems and complaints than any other approach. 

 

 

Or, you know, AU or bust.


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#107
Han Shot First

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I say just canonize Destroy and call it a day. Onto the net game!

 

:D


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#108
Farangbaa

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I say just canonize Destroy and call it a day. Onto the net game!

 

:D

 

ME4 plot synopsis: fight your new synthetic overlord(s) and prevent your own extinction

 

;)


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#109
AlanC9

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ME4 plot synopsis: fight your new synthetic overlord(s) and prevent your own extinction
 
;)


I'm in. The best thing about the Dark Energy plot was that Shepard was the bad guy all along, so canonized evil Control works for me.

#110
Mcfly616

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I'm in. The best thing about the Dark Energy plot was that Shepard was the bad guy all along, so canonized evil Control works for me.

 can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but he was referring to the synthetics that we would eventually create Post-Destroy. The ones that will rise up and extinguish all life in the galaxy now that the Reapers aren't here to prevent it. 



#111
ElitePinecone

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 can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but he was referring to the synthetics that we would eventually create Post-Destroy. The ones that will rise up and extinguish all life in the galaxy now that the Reapers aren't here to prevent it. 

 

The synthetics vs organics plot is boring and overdone, at this point. The Reapers' logic was ridiculous and the story of Leviathan totally ruined that theme for me.

 

They need to move on to other things. It sounds like ME Next might even be about ancient technology and discovering new history, if we're to believe that one of the new alien races is an ancient guardian type.



#112
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Well first off, LOL at intoxication theory.

 

Second off, I really do think they're going to have to make an ending canon--Destroy I think, to remove the simplistic Reaper storyline.

 

And I still want Mass Effect: Noir. A semi-open world set on the Citadel, ONLY the Citadel (if you look at the specs in-game it's huge), where you play as any race, and you're an investigator in C-Sec or something.



#113
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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I wonder how many people were disappointed that the Collector General was not an enemy we could fight in the game, and in fact if you didn't do Arrival until after the main plot was completed, Shepard never even got to see this thing. I sure was. Granted, more than likely you'd just be talking to Harbinger again, since he liked to assume direct control of everything, but I would've much rather had some kind of super praetorian over the human reaper.

 
Whoa whoa whoa, wait. What's this about the Collector General and Arrival?

Too bad ME3 is considered to be a terrible game and ME2 an excellent one.

Interesting to see that there are a few ME3 fans here that defend that bad game vehemently (well, everything but the ending at least). I'm kind Kind of surprised after that major shitstorm that ME3 caused.

 
ME3 is considered to be a terrible game and ME2 a great one because it's the latest game, and Bioware fans love to whine about the latest game while praising the previous one. Surely you remember the post ME2 years, where everyone was whining about everything from thermal clips (which I agree with but see no reason to whine about) to Cerberus to the Council.

#114
RiptideX1090

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Well first off, LOL at intoxication theory.

 

Second off, I really do think they're going to have to make an ending canon--Destroy I think, to remove the simplistic Reaper storyline.

 

 

Provided this takes place post-endings? I think you might be right. I mean... why on earth would you need to explore new sectors of space when you could just send Reapers to do it in Synthesis and Control? And if any conflicts arise... again, why can't Catalyst-Shepard or the Reapers handle it? They could map out the entire galaxy far faster than we ever could, assuming they haven't done so already.

 

So... yeah. They might just shrug it all off and say, "well, just assume that if you picked Control or Synthesis everything is hunkydory for ever because Reaper Police State."

 

Argh, who knows? All I know is I hate not having enough information.



#115
AlanC9

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can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but he was referring to the synthetics that we would eventually create Post-Destroy. The ones that will rise up and extinguish all life in the galaxy now that the Reapers aren't here to prevent it.

Whoops! Misread that completely.

Still works for me, since Shepard's still the one who brought disaster down on the MEU through his good intentions. Kind of like Star Trek's Mirror Universe Spock, although he was mostly bad for humans.

#116
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Provided this takes place post-endings? I think you might be right. I mean... why on earth would you need to explore new sectors of space when you could just send Reapers to do it in Synthesis and Control? And if any conflicts arise... again, why can't Catalyst-Shepard or the Reapers handle it? They could map out the entire galaxy far faster than we ever could, assuming they haven't done so already.

 

So... yeah. They might just shrug it all off and say, "well, just assume that if you picked Control or Synthesis everything is hunkydory for ever because Reaper Police State."

 

Argh, who knows? All I know is I hate not having enough information.

 

I feel the same, though I just shrug and say to myself that if they don't want to give me information, they needn't expect me to be interested until they do.

 

Not that I matter to them, but hey. YOLO.



#117
AlanC9

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Whoa whoa whoa, wait. What's this about the Collector General and Arrival? ME3 is considered to be a terrible game and ME2 a great one because it's the latest game, and Bioware fans love to whine about the latest game while praising the previous one. Surely you remember the post ME2 years, where everyone was whining about everything from thermal clips (which I agree with but see no reason to whine about) to Cerberus to the Council.


Suddenly I found myself thinking of Gatt9 and Terror_K.

#118
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Suddenly I found myself thinking of Gatt9 and Terror_K.

 

Oh, gosh. Gatt. The gaming market still hasn't crashed. And I bet he's still predicting it, wherever he is.

 

I got here at the very very end of Eceal's (I know that's not spelled right, can't remember the correct spelling) time here.

 

So many people I miss from that time. marsh, Kaiser, Quole, Cheez, heck it was even fun to butt heads with Saphra every once in a while.

 

Those were the days. Is it bad that I'm lamenting the "good old days," and on the internet at that?


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#119
Glockwheeler

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Ah heck, they could just canonize the Destroy option, have ME4 end with the new team arriving at the Citadel, finding Shepard post breath scene, rescuing him and then leave the next two games to move forward? Yes? No? Geez, I don't know where to really go with it at this point.



#120
dlux

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ME3 is considered to be a terrible game and ME2 a great one because it's the latest game, and Bioware fans love to whine about the latest game while praising the previous one. Surely you remember the post ME2 years, where everyone was whining about everything from thermal clips (which I agree with but see no reason to whine about) to Cerberus to the Council.

"Fans are wrong for being dissapointed, ME3 is just as good if not better than previous installments."

Sounds like a superiority complex to me.

#121
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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"Fans are wrong for being dissapointed, ME3 is just as good if not better than previous installments."

Sounds like a superiority complex to me.

 

Come on. At least try, man.

 

ME2 is my favorite game of the series. I think the Reaper plot is silly partially because of the scope, partially because of how black-and-white it's portrayed before ME3. ME2 ignores that nonsense and focuses on what matters: the universe. Characters. Interactions between races. Bioware's strong point.

 

The fact that I prefer ME2 (though I still think ME3 is very good) does not preclude me from recognizing when people are wearing their nostalgia glasses.



#122
dlux

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Come on. At least try, man.

 

ME2 is my favorite game of the series. I think the Reaper plot is silly partially because of the scope, partially because of how black-and-white it's portrayed before ME3. ME2 ignores that nonsense and focuses on what matters: the universe. Characters. Interactions between races. Bioware's strong point.

 

The fact that I prefer ME2 (though I still think ME3 is very good) does not preclude me from recognizing when people are wearing their nostalgia glasses.

So you only think ME3 is almost as good as ME2? Woops, my bad.

 

At least I understood you when you wrote that fans are wrong for being severly disappointed in ME3.



#123
Aurawolf

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There isn't really anything wrong with ME2, it may not fit very well into the whole picture thing of the Reapers but it at least shows more of the Mass Effect universe. ME3 to me at least was great until we got the whole Starchild junk thrown at us out of nowhere and had to chose our fav color on how to end the universe.



#124
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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So you only think ME3 is almost as good as ME2? Woops, my bad.

 

At least I understood you when you wrote that fans are wrong for being severly disappointed in ME3.

 

Quotes, please. You're putting words in my mouth, hilariously wrong words.

 

No, ME3 was not "almost as good" as ME2. ME3 was a good game. ME2 was an excellent game.

 

Many fans, in the wake of Bioware's latest game, have their nostalgia glasses on. Regardless of how you try to put words in my mouth, that is the reality.



#125
ElitePinecone

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Ah heck, they could just canonize the Destroy option, have ME4 end with the new team arriving at the Citadel, finding Shepard post breath scene, rescuing him and then leave the next two games to move forward? Yes? No? Geez, I don't know where to really go with it at this point.

 

I think people are still stuck on thinking that the next game will be linked to the first three. 

 

It probably won't be. Shepard's story and basically that whole chunk of the universe "ended" in one way or another in ME3. We were supposed to conclude from Extended Cut and the Stargazer scene that these choices and Shepard's life would have an impact on the galaxy for centuries or millennia afterwards. Beginning ME Next by just hopping back into the Citadel again and running into Shepard doesn't make a jot of sense, in that context. 

 

If the number of times they're saying things like "fresh" or "new" is any guide, I wouldn't be surprised if there are no characters or locations from the old trilogy in this one at all.