249 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

no idea.

ヽ(；▽；)ノ

PREACH.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Because everyone apart from the protagonist in Skyrim & DA:O are voiced, I don't feel like they are talking, I feel like they are telepathically transmitting their thoughts.

If everyone was silent then I was agree with you but were only the protagonist is silent it doesn't feel to me like they are talking.

I can't speak to your feelings. I can only address actual game content, and the opportunities it provides.

If your feelings are Inventing difficulties for you, that's something you need to sort out on your own.

To me these speeches are given to get me and my NPC army all riled up to kill darkspawn, reapers etc. In DA:O I spent Anora's/Alister's entire speech wishing it were over, in ME Shepard's helped me feel like these were my men I was leading into battle and it really got me fired up.

I find that voiced protagonist speeches tend to break my character. Shepard says things that don't suit the personality I've crafted. Hawke does the same.

Once again, how I feel doesn't enter into it.

So you can imagine their uncertainty but its not depicted in the game in anyway, no facial experience to help show that uncertainty, no reaction from the other voiced characters.

Of course the NPCs react. What are you talking about? And however the NPCs react to my character's behaviour informs my character's impression of those NPCs.

They'll react just as much as they do now. We don't lose anything there by having the PC silent.

You've imaged yourself as an uncertain leader but all the companions are reacting to you like you know what you are doing.

Assuming that the NPCs' opinions are even discernible, how they react tells us a lot about them.

I find that disconnect distracting.

I perceive no disconnect.

[Elhanan]

...

I find that voiced protagonist speeches tend to break my character. Shepard says things that don't suit the personality I've crafted. Hawke does the same.

Once again, how I feel doesn't enter into it....

I find that both Voiced and Non-Voiced speeches and dialogue do not exactly match crafted personality. However, my imagination has always been able to bridge such departures in either case, and I do not consider myself as exceptional in this.

For me, I prefer to hear my character speak when those around also do so, but enjoy both types of RPG's.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I find that both Voiced and Non-Voiced speeches and dialogue do not exactly match crafted personality. However, my imagination has always been able to bridge such departures in either case, and I do not consider myself as exceptional in this.

With the voiced protagonist, your imagination needs to contradict on-screen content.  With the silent protagonist, it does not.

 

That seems to me a relevant distinction.

[Vapaa]

Im not sure about that, if there was a show like that in other countries it would likely get the same treatment, i really doubt that a kids show showing LGBT elements would be tolerated by alot of people.

 

Spoiler

 

They're a couple and, yes, it's a show aimed at kids

[Samahl]

Spoiler

 
They're a couple and, yes, it's a show aimed at kids

Come to think of it, Sailor Moon had a lesbian couple (though it was censored in the dub).

[JadePrince]

Spoiler

 

They're a couple and, yes, it's a show aimed at kids

 

What is this from? it looks adorable.

[Kidd]

Come to think of it, Sailor Moon had a lesbian couple (though it was censored in the dub).

Also a gay one, where at least in the Swedish dub from the 90's had one of the men (Zoisite) turned into a woman.

Also a group of transgender warriors who transitioned through their sailor transformations. That entire arc was never part of Sailor Moon outside of Japan.

[phantomrachie]

I can't speak to your feelings. I can only address actual game content, and the opportunities it provides.

If your feelings are Inventing difficulties for you, that's something you need to sort out on your own.
I find that voiced protagonist speeches tend to break my character. Shepard says things that don't suit the personality I've crafted. Hawke does the same.

Once again, how I feel doesn't enter into it.

 

You've contradicted yourself there, I need to sort out any feelings that I have but when you feel that voiced protagonist speeches break your character that it fine.

 

I realise that you've stated that how you feel doesn't enter it but it does, I feel that it doesn't break character, you feel that it does or to say it without using the word feel, I find that it doesn't break character, you find that it does.

 

 

Of course the NPCs react. What are you talking about? And however the NPCs react to my character's behaviour informs my character's impression of those NPCs.

They'll react just as much as they do now. We don't lose anything there by having the PC silent.
Assuming that the NPCs' opinions are even discernible, how they react tells us a lot about them.
 

 

They don't react to your the personality you're using your imagination to give them. Perhaps I didn't explain properly in my last post.

 

You stated that you might want your Inquisitor to be uncertain and out of their depth and since Alix's tone might not be able to express that then a silent protagonist was better.

 

So let's say the Inquisitor was silent and you imagined them saying their lines with an uncertain tone because all the other characters are voiced, unless BioWare predicted that you wanted to imagine your character using an uncertain tone, all of your companions would still be reacting like you were confident and knew what you were doing.

 

No one would be questioning why someone so uncertain and out of their depth is leading the Inquisition 

 

Inquisitor: Ok, let's go (Uncertain tone)

 

Companion:  Glad you sound so confident in your plan

 

This is where I perceive a disconnect

[Samahl]

Also a gay one, where at least in the Swedish dub from the 90's had one of the men (Zoisite) turned into a woman.
Also a group of transgender warriors who transitioned through their sailor transformations. That entire arc was never part of Sailor Moon outside of Japan.

Seriously? Damn, Sailor Moon was way more progressive than anything on TV for kids nowadays.

(I'm sure it's problematic in some way, but still, way to go, Toei.)

[Vapaa]

What is this from? it looks adorable.

 

Dofus: The Treasures of Kerubim, altough it's more in the background as the scenario is more focused on Kerubim's adventures from his youth.

 

Last time I checked the english dub was trying to pull a Sailor moon but I haven't checked in a while.

[Who Knows]

The United States and Japan are in the strange circumstance of being more progressive in some ways and less progressive in other ways than each other in regards to LGBT inclusivity.

[Elhanan]

With the voiced protagonist, your imagination needs to contradict on-screen content.  With the silent protagonist, it does not.
 
That seems to me a relevant distinction.

Silent dialogue choices are also on screen; that is how one selects them.

I view varied dialogue options as mental choices the PC considers, but selects one with which to vocalize. If the choice made is not exact to the intent, it is accepted as a miscommunication between thought and mouth; have had plenty of experience with that in RL.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Inquisitor: Ok, let's go (Uncertain tone)

Companion: Glad you sound so confident in your plan

This is where I perceive a disconnect

I don't, because I don't think we can read the NPC's mind. Maybe the NPC's response is sarcasm. That would be consistent with my delivery. Maybe the NPC is oblivious to my character's uncertainty (maybe he wasn't listening; maybe he has something else on his mind). Maybe the NPC is trying to put on a brave face for the benefit of others. Or for the benefit of the PC.

There are any number of explanations available, and they work as long as you don't think you read the NPC's mind.

[alistairsstache]

Man, I'm just excited about a trans character existing anywhere other than in my own headcanon 

 

Now, I totally understand the POV of those who think trans characters should be played by trans actors. But can we just not do that thing where we assume everyone who disagrees is ignorant or uncaring?

 

As a trans actor (for stage, not videogames) I feel like I have a valid opinion. For me, I will be excited about any trans actor getting cast in something so big.

 

BUT, I am actually kind of bothered by the idea that only trans actors should ever play trans characters. It's hard to explain but there are a couple factors about that that touch a nerve with me.

 

1.) Acting really isn't about relating to the character on a personal level. The only limits are the age and race you look and sound. And with voice acting, limits are even fewer. Nobody says you need to have been widowed to play a widow, nobody says you need to have served to play an action hero, no children necessary to play fathers or mothers, no personal horrors needed to play the traumatized...

 

I guess, to me, to say that ONLY trans actors could ever play trans characters well ... implies that we are somehow more alien or more extreme than all of these other things ... That nobody who isn't trans could ever understand. And that doesn't make any sense to me.

 

2.) The main problem, though, is the same problem I often see in debates about gay actors. (I am bi, by the way, so I'm restricting myself here to issues I know and care a lot about.) I LOVE seeing LGB actors play LGB characters, on a personal level. It shouldn't matter but it's exciting in a different way to me.

 

But I get worried when people say only gay people and trans people should be playing gay or trans characters. Because that suggests gender identity and sexual orientation can't be acted like age and personality can. And the truth is, LGB and trans folk, we are in the minority in these categories. So even in an ideal world where homophobia and transphobia have disappeared ...

 

There will probably be a lot more cis and straight characters than there are LGBT ones, based only on statistics. And it may be 2 for every 8 and even THAT will take a long time for us to achieve. So what does it mean if gender identity and sexual orientation aren't believed to be actable? It means LGB and transgendered actors won't be considered for cis or straight roles at all.

 

I think most people agree gay actors not being allowed to play straight characters is ridiculous. There used to be a lot of concern in Hollywood that they can't do it convincingly. Luckily talented gay actors famous for straight characters have knocked down a lot of those prejudices. I get worried when I see people arguing for something that may result in more exclusion aimed at transgender actors.

 

Now, I know that my concerns and views are not the only ones out there about this. And I am not at all critiquing those who feel differently from the way I feel.

 

I just want to make it known that that is not the only valid viewpoint here. And that disagreeing isn't necessarily based in ignorance or in the desire to exclude trans actors.

[phantomrachie]

I don't, because I don't think we can read the NPC's mind. Maybe the NPC's response is sarcasm. That would be consistent with my delivery. Maybe the NPC is oblivious to my character's uncertainty (maybe he wasn't listening; maybe he has something else on his mind). Maybe the NPC is trying to put on a brave face for the benefit of others. Or for the benefit of the PC.

There are any number of explanations available, and they work as long as you don't think you read the NPC's mind.

 

I don't find this explanation credible and I don't think I can read an NPC's mind. If voiced NPC is being sarcastic then that should show up in their tone, in this example it wouldn't.  

 

Basically every NPC you come across that doesn't react to your uncertainty you'd have to make up a reason why. Maybe IronBull just wasn't listening, maybe Cass was putting on a brave face etc. 

 

To me it seems like we'd be losing out on companions reacting to our personality

[CronoDragoon]

If your feelings are Inventing difficulties for you, that's something you need to sort out on your own.

 

That's an odd thing to say. Why would she need to sort out anything as opposed to posting on a forum about how a certain type of dialogue scene breaks her immersion? Her feelings are at least as important as your "findings"- or however you want to frame your semantics - to someone crafting the game. It also appears that BioWare agrees with her as far as presentation of a silent protagonist when everyone else is voiced. So you'll probably be the one sorting out your dislike of voiced protagonists on your own, or finding other games if it matters enough to you.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't find this explanation credible and I don't think I can read an NPC's mind. If voiced NPC is being sarcastic then that should show up in their tone, in this example it wouldn't.

Basically every NPC you come across that doesn't react to your uncertainty you'd have to make up a reason why. Maybe IronBull just wasn't listening, maybe Cass was putting on a brave face etc.

To me it seems like we'd be losing out on companions reacting to our personality

Two things:

1. I don't think tone is as meaningful as you seem to think it is. In this case, the tone of wry sarcasm is largely indistinguishable from the tone of a literal statement.

2. No one needs to invent explanations for NPC behaviour. In fact, I would argue that that's the sort of thing that's causing this problem. I don't know why the NPC reacts as he does. You have difficulty with the silent protagonist, though, because you do think you know.

[phantomrachie]

Two things:

1. I don't think tone is as meaningful as you seem to think it is. In this case, the tone of wry sarcasm is largely indistinguishable from the tone of a literal statement.

2. No one needs to invent explanations for NPC behaviour. In fact, I would argue that that's the sort of thing that's causing this problem. I don't know why the NPC reacts as he does. You have difficulty with the silent protagonist, though, because you do think you know.

 

1. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point because it getting down to personal opinion.

 

2. The only thing we know about an NPC is how they behave and the only way we can judge an NPCs relationship to a protagonist is in their behaviour. You're right in saying that I don't know how an NPC might behave, however based on previous interactions with that NPC I can make a good guess.

 

These are previous interactions that BioWare have created to give us insight into an NPC and we are expected to form opinions on them and on how they'll react - we may not be right 100% of the time but we are given enough info to make these assumptions.

 

It's like in ME2, when Jacob told me that Tali was not going to like me reactivating Legion, everything I knew about Tali from ME1 told me that he was right, she was going to hate it, so I expected her to bring it up when I went to talk to her and she never did.

 

That was not the reaction I expected based on what I knew of her, however other reactions by other characters were, e.g. the conversation with Jack after her loyalty mission, the conversation with Miranda her loyalty mission, the conflict between the two of them etc.

 

My point is, at least some of the NPCs should react in ways that fit with their behaviour and not have a hidden reason for happening.

 

If all behaviour that seems to be out of character for an NPC has a hidden reason, then it makes it seem like the characters are poorly written.

 

Take Cass for example, unless her personality is radically different in DA:I, I would expect her not to tolerate an uncertain Inquisitor and to eventually try to slap some sense into them, but if she didn't then that would be okay as long as most of her other reactions seemed in character.

[Sylvius the Mad]

We know these people for, at most, dozens of hours. They're all still basically strangers to us by the end of the game.

1. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point because it getting down to personal opinion.

I choose the standard of evidence that grants me the most enjoyable gameplay experience.

You can choose based on whatever criteria you prefer. But you're still choosing.

Take Cass for example, unless her personality is radically different in DA:I, I would expect her not to tolerate an uncertain Inquisitor and to eventually try to slap some sense into them, but if she didn't then that would be okay as long as most of her other reactions seemed in character.

Sten did this exact thing in DAO. He ultimately killed my cowardly Warden. It was brilliant.

[BadgerladDK]

I think most people agree gay actors not being allowed to play straight characters is ridiculous. There used to be a lot of concern in Hollywood that they can't do it convincingly. Luckily talented gay actors famous for straight characters have knocked down a lot of those prejudices. I get worried when I see people arguing for something that may result in more exclusion aimed at transgender actors.

 

 

Great post, and one that's hard to disagree with.

 

Also, the quoted bit made me think of a world where Neil Patrick Harris hadn't been allowed to play Barney Stinson. That world would have sucked.

[Samahl]

I just want to make it known that that is not the only valid viewpoint here. And that disagreeing isn't necessarily based in ignorance or in the desire to exclude trans actors.

I don't disagree with a lot of your points. It's a bit more complicated than that though, imo, especially when it comes to stage acting. I understand that it's probably a little different with voice acting. I suggest going back and reading all of my posts, because I'm certainly not suggesting anything like what you seem to think.

[phantomrachie]

We know these people for, at most, dozens of hours. They're all still basically strangers to us by the end of the game.
 

 

This is true for characters in any medium, be it T.V., books, films or video games, however the goal of a writer is to make us care about these characters in a short space of time, so that they are not strangers to us and making a decision like who to leave behind on Virmire is actually an emotional decision.

 

The first 10 Minutes of 'Up' has barely any dialogue, yet by the end of it you know Carl very well and are also probably in tears

 

 

 

Sten did this exact thing in DAO. He ultimately killed my cowardly Warden. It was brilliant.

 

Right but that could only happen because BioWare gave Sten an interaction with a Warden he thought was being a coward and you could either persuade him otherwise or prove yourself a coward.

 

Your imagined personality or voice tone can only have reactivity if BioWare predicted that you wanted to imagine your Warden like that, like with Sten.

 

Which has been my point all along. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

This is true for characters in any medium, be it T.V., books, films or video games, however the goal of a writer is to make us care about these characters in a short space of time, so that they are not strangers to us and making a decision like who to leave behind on Virmire is actually an emotional decision.

I can't imagine that ever working.

Right but that could only happen because BioWare gave Sten an interaction with a Warden he thought was being a coward and you could either persuade him otherwise or prove yourself a coward.

Your imagined personality or voice tone can only have reactivity if BioWare predicted that you wanted to imagine your Warden like that, like with Sten.

Which has been my point all along.

Except that's not the case. Sten didn't object to my Warden being a coward. He objected to poor leadership generally, which I think he did to all Wardens at that point in the game. What made it work was that his objection was vague enough that it could apply to nearly anything, and if the player didn't think the objection was warranted for any reason, the option was available to treat Sten's behaviour as incomprehensibly alien.

That has been my point all along - the player can live in that ambiguity, if it exists. And it seems to exist less with thr voiced protagonist.

[LarryDavid]

 Acting really isn't about relating to the character on a personal level. The only limits are the age and race you look and sound. And with voice acting, limits are even fewer. Nobody says you need to have been widowed to play a widow, nobody says you need to have served to play an action hero, no children necessary to play fathers or mothers, no personal horrors needed to play the traumatized...

 

I guess, to me, to say that ONLY trans actors could ever play trans characters well ... implies that we are somehow more alien or more extreme than all of these other things ... That nobody who isn't trans could ever understand. And that doesn't make any sense to me.

 

 

I have heard a lot of actors say that certain roles were easier to play due to personal experience, which seems logic to me. As a consequence, when doing an audition, these actors have an advantage over actors who lack the relevant experience. As far as I can see the level of this advantage depends on 2 things

-> The relevance to the script: if the aspects that overlap between the actor and the role are irrelevant to the story, the advantage will be negligible. Take as example a movie about an alien invasion. A group civilians get together by chance, fight off the invasion and save the world. At the end someone asks the natural leader what he did before all this and (s)he answers 'I was a gardener'. I think it safe to say that in this case an actor's gardening skills won't influence his/her audition.

-> The imagineability of the necessary experience: imagining having kids is easier than imagining having been in a civil war.

 

Suppose an actress is needed to play a mother who recently lost a child. It is not necessary to have lost a child in order to be able to play someone who has lost a child and be good at it. It is simply more likely that an actress who has lost a child performs better than an actress who hasn't lost a child. Also, an actress who has children will more likely do a better audition that a childless actress.

 

Regarding trans characters I would say that the advantage trans actors have is pretty huge. In every movie or series I have seen the trans aspect was always part of a storyline (e.g. dirty sexy money) and it seems almost impossible to imagine how it would feel if your gender does not match your gender identity.

 

I strongly disagree that casting trans actors for trans characters implies that you are somehow alien. The harder you have to struggle for/with something, the harder it is for someone else to understand/imagine what you went through. So for me it implies how hard the process is from discovering that your gender mismatches your gender and coming to terms with it.