Aller au contenu

Photo

Dragon Age - Leading the Way


249 réponses à ce sujet

#151
Guest_john_sheparrd_*

Guest_john_sheparrd_*
  • Guests

Yes you can. You can ask a great many questions of a great many people. But the actual asking just isn't presented on screen.

Do you need everu detail of your character's personality to appear on screen? Is he only happy when you can see him smiling?
He obviously isn't mute, because the other characters respond to the dialogue you select for him.
This one doesn't bother me, because I don’t typically care who gives the speech. Speeches are given for the benefit of the audience, not the speaker, and I'm indifferent to the audience.
Somehow, we used to give up less.
The great thing about the silent protagonist and full-text dialogue options is that the writers don't need to foresee your character design. With no voice, I can choose to have the line delivered differently, thus expressing the uncertainty I desire. And with full-text, I'm never going to have my character say something I didn't explicitly choose for her to say.

 

Skyrim is just bad in terms of story and characters mate and thats a fact

especially when you compare it to Dragon Age

sure the world is huge and there is a lot to discover but I never had any motiviation to keep playing after some hours the story is **** and the characters also generic as hell

And I don't like silent protagonists at all in DA:O it was ok because of the great characters around you but still somehow having the protagonist not voiced in future Bioware games would be a huge step backwards
 


  • Alya_ aime ceci

#152
Maeshone

Maeshone
  • Members
  • 299 messages

Yep.

 

 

You haven't actually addressed any of the other arguments in this thread, so it seems you're just being willfully ignorant about why it's important for trans actors to play trans characters.

Alright, the first point is fair enough, but just... horse urine... ew  :mellow:

 

 

Here you go! I'm helpfully copy-pasting my answers to the question that was already asked which might clear some things up for you:

 

"Another good reason is that being trans means you have to fight extra extra hard to make it in the entertainment industry. Trans people already have more obstacles to proving they can play non-trans roles, so when the few trans roles that exist go to cis people, it's not as simple as saying "well those trans actors can just play those cis roles over there instead". You're basically taking away the small handful of roles that trans people should, in theory, be best qualified to play."

 

"ALSO, if you cast a trans person to play a trans role, or do a trans voice, then they can help make sure the dialogue they are acting makes sense, is accurate and unoffensive. Which is another plus for both the trans audience and the company itself because it means they're much less likely to accidentally get something wrong and garner bad press around it. It's really in a company's best interest to cast a trans person in a trans role for this reason too."

See, the thing I have issues with is the idea that trans people would be better qualified to play those roles. The rest are all valid points, and extremely good ones. I just think an acting role should go to the best actor regardless, because acting is by definition "the art or profession of performing the role of a character in a play, movie, etc. : the art or profession of an actor". Being similar to the role an actor plays is not needed in order to provide a good portrayal, especially not in voice acting, where literally the only thing we get is the voice. appearance, mannerisms and such are all added by other people.



#153
Samahl

Samahl
  • Members
  • 1 825 messages

I just think an acting role should go to the best actor regardless

 

Why is it that the "best actor" always happens to be cis?


  • Kidd, Who Knows et Kalamah aiment ceci

#154
Who Knows

Who Knows
  • Members
  • 1 328 messages

I highly doubt that they can't find a trans person who can voice act well.

And honestly? Trans people WOULD be better qualified to play a specifically trans character. They know what it's like. It is experience and understanding.


  • Samahl et Kalamah aiment ceci

#155
Maeshone

Maeshone
  • Members
  • 299 messages

Why is it that the "best actor" always happens to be cis?

Except I didn't say that. I said the best actor regardless. If the best actor is trans, then hell yeah, sign me right the **** up for that ride. Like Idris Elba was absolutely perfect for Heimdall, despite the original Heimdall being white. 



#156
Samahl

Samahl
  • Members
  • 1 825 messages

Except I didn't say that. I said the best actor regardless. If the best actor is trans, then hell yeah, sign me right the **** up for that ride. Like Idris Elba was absolutely perfect for Heimdall, despite the original Heimdall being white. 

 

My point is that many people claim that it's always the "best actor" who is chosen, when that's not actually true. Most of the time, they don't even try to find a trans actor (or actor of color/disabled actor/etc.). It'd be great if we lived in a world where auditions were open for everyone, and discrimination wasn't such a huge problem when it came to casting, but it is, and we need to acknowledge it.


  • Ziggy, shinyfirefly, Kidd et 3 autres aiment ceci

#157
JadePrince

JadePrince
  • Members
  • 851 messages

Except I didn't say that. I said the best actor regardless. If the best actor is trans, then hell yeah, sign me right the **** up for that ride. Like Idris Elba was absolutely perfect for Heimdall, despite the original Heimdall being white. 

 

That's different tho. That's the casting changing a white character to be a black character instead (which I'm totally on board with). 

 

In the case we're talking about, it's not changing a trans character to a cis character by virtue of casting a cis actor. The role is still a trans role. And we're talking about a cis person stepping into a trans role. I'm not saying they couldn't pull it off, but you can't argue that a trans actor doesn't better know what it's like to be trans.



#158
JadePrince

JadePrince
  • Members
  • 851 messages

My point is that many people claim that it's always the "best actor" who is chosen, when that's not actually true. Most of the time, they don't even try to find a trans actor (or actor of color/disabled actor/etc.). It'd be great if we lived in a world where auditions were open for everyone, and discrimination wasn't such a huge problem when it came to casting, but it is, and we need to acknowledge it.

 

Exactly. We can't pretend that cis actors and trans actors are starting from a level playing field and have all the same opportunities dependent only on their skill as an actor.



#159
Maeshone

Maeshone
  • Members
  • 299 messages

My point is that many people claim that it's always the "best actor" who is chosen, when that's not actually true. Most of the time, they don't even try to find a trans actor (or actor of color/disabled actor/etc.). It'd be great if we lived in a world where auditions were open for everyone, and discrimination wasn't such a huge problem when it came to casting, but it is, and we need to acknowledge it.

And I'm with you on that, 100 percent. I just feel that in voice acting, where the character is a collaboration between a whole bunch of people, the end result is more important than the individual actor, who only provides the voice.

 

That's different tho. That's the casting changing a white character to be a black character instead (which I'm totally on board with). 

 

In the case we're talking about, it's not changing a trans character to a cis character by virtue of casting a cis actor. The role is still a trans role. And we're talking about a cis person stepping into a trans role. I'm not saying they couldn't pull it off, but you can't argue that a trans actor doesn't better know what it's like to be trans.

Fair enough that the example might be a bit awkward, it was just something I pulled from the top of my head. And I'm not arguing against trans people knowing more about being trans as that argument would be utterly ridiculous, and I'm not utterly ridiculous. At best I'm slightly silly. However, We are talking about a fictional society that is seemingly more okay with homosexuality than ours, and as far as I know we don't really have a lot of info about transsexuality and how it is regarded in Thedas (I have not read the books/comics(?) in which Maevaris appears, so I'll admit my knowledge is even more limited). As such, experiences with being trans in our society might not be reflective of being trans in Thedas at all. In which case the actor being trans doesn't qualify the actor over a cis actor (other than the fact that we should hire more trans actors in general)



#160
KBomb

KBomb
  • Members
  • 3 927 messages
I think a job should go to the most qualified applicant in any circumstance, however; trans characters are rare and if we have reached the point in our society where they are accepted enough to be placed in a form of media, it would really be a fantastic opportunity to have a trans person step into that role and get to really shine and maybe little by little that shine will encourage more casting directors to cast trans actors in not only roles they can relate to, but to also give them a chance to step out of their comfort zone and claim roles that require them be something else-- much like all actors do at one time or another.

It isn't that they should be cast regardless, but more of it being about the amazing opportunity that could change minds and open doors for those who would have never thought to hire them in the first place and give courage to those actors who would otherwise be too afraid to audition for some roles.
  • JadePrince aime ceci

#161
JadePrince

JadePrince
  • Members
  • 851 messages

And I'm with you on that, 100 percent. I just feel that in voice acting, where the character is a collaboration between a whole bunch of people, the end result is more important than the individual actor, who only provides the voice.

 

Fair enough that the example might be a bit awkward, it was just something I pulled from the top of my head. And I'm not arguing against trans people knowing more about being trans as that argument would be utterly ridiculous, and I'm not utterly ridiculous. At best I'm slightly silly. However, We are talking about a fictional society that is seemingly more okay with homosexuality than ours, and as far as I know we don't really have a lot of info about transsexuality and how it is regarded in Thedas (I have not read the books/comics(?) in which Maevaris appears, so I'll admit my knowledge is even more limited). As such, experiences with being trans in our society might not be reflective of being trans in Thedas at all. In which case the actor being trans doesn't qualify the actor over a cis actor (other than the fact that we should hire more trans actors in general)

 

Hm... I can't say I really buy that. Sounds like a pretty big stretch to try and justify why trans roles don't have to go to trans actors. For me, it's enough to say "There are very few trans roles out there. Why not give them to the talented trans actors (and believe me, they exist) who otherwise are largely ignored or looked over in favor of their cis colleagues?" To me, that's more than enough justification. 


  • Who Knows, Samahl et Kalamah aiment ceci

#162
Who Knows

Who Knows
  • Members
  • 1 328 messages

Thedas isn't actually a non-sexist utopia. I doubt being trans would be trivial.


  • JadePrince aime ceci

#163
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 112 messages

Skyrim is just bad in terms of story and characters mate and thats a fact

That's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

sure the world is huge and there is a lot to discover but I never had any motiviation to keep playing after some hours the story is **** and the characters also generic as hell

I don't disagree, but again, I question the relevance.

And I don't like silent protagonists at all in DA:O it was ok because of the great characters around you but still somehow having the protagonist not voiced in future Bioware games would be a huge step backwards

Now we're getting somewhere.  You simply don't like silent protagonists, even though they give you much greater control over your character's behaviour.

 

But I don't agree it would be a step backward.  I don't even think that's a meaningful term.  It's a value judgment, and one you haven't supported at all.


  • bEVEsthda aime ceci

#164
JadePrince

JadePrince
  • Members
  • 851 messages

One more thing, and I swear I'll try to step back from this thread, hahaha... On the subject of "We should always hire the best/most talented person for the role":

 

When I comes right down to it, 'talent' and 'skill' are largely subjective qualities, and the entertainment industry is not entirely fair, nor unbiased. I would hazard a bet that if you got two actors, one trans and one cis (or one black and one white) of equal skill, talent, and experience, a casting director might find themselves judging the cis (or white) actor to be "more qualified" or "more talented" without ever realizing that their own biases are impacting their judgement. And that's not to say that hypothetical casting director is willfully transphobic or racist-- it's just that these biases are hard to shake (sometimes even hard to realize we have them) when we grow up in a society that teaches us, through our media, what is 'normal' (and thus acceptable).


  • shinyfirefly, Kidd et Who Knows aiment ceci

#165
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 112 messages

Why is it that the "best actor" always happens to be cis?

Because cisgendered people vastly outnumber transgendered people, so for any given task the best person is likely to be cis rather than trans.  If you're looking for the best engineer, the best doctor, the best teacher, the best pickpocket, or the best actor, in all those categories the best person is more likely to come from the larger group.



#166
Who Knows

Who Knows
  • Members
  • 1 328 messages

There are billions of people in the world, to select *the* absolute "best" actor for a role is not possible. It is not realistic to begin with so I don't see why people are actually suggesting it as if it's an attainable goal.



#167
Samahl

Samahl
  • Members
  • 1 825 messages

Because cisgendered people vastly outnumber transgendered people, so for any given task the best person is likely to be cis rather than trans.  If you're looking for the best engineer, the best doctor, the best teacher, the best pickpocket, or the best actor, in all those categories the best person is more likely to come from the larger group.

 

So, in the history of film/TV/video games, there has never been a trans actor who has been the most qualified for the job?


  • Who Knows aime ceci

#168
Samahl

Samahl
  • Members
  • 1 825 messages

There are billions of people in the world, to select *the* absolute "best" actor for a role is not possible. It is not realistic to begin with so I don't see why people are actually suggesting it as if it's an attainable goal.

 

I'm starting to think that cis people just think all trans people are shitty actors or something.


  • JadePrince, Who Knows et Kalamah aiment ceci

#169
JadePrince

JadePrince
  • Members
  • 851 messages

Because cisgendered people vastly outnumber transgendered people, so for any given task the best person is likely to be cis rather than trans.  If you're looking for the best engineer, the best doctor, the best teacher, the best pickpocket, or the best actor, in all those categories the best person is more likely to come from the larger group.

 

But we aren't talking about population numbers in general. We're talking about a group of actors auditioning for a trans role. Are the trans actors auditioning for a trans role ALWAYS vastly outnumbered by cis people? I'd guess no. Of course, that's if trans people are even ALLOWED to audition. All too often the casting sheet for a trans role will specify that they only want (for example) cis men to audition for a trans female role. What then? How do you know the cis actor who is cast was the 'best' for the role, when trans actors weren't even allowed to audition?


  • shinyfirefly, Who Knows et Samahl aiment ceci

#170
Who Knows

Who Knows
  • Members
  • 1 328 messages

I'm starting to think that cis people just think all trans people are shitty actors or something.

And it's not as if, as players and not developers, they would know all of the people who auditioned for the role and how well they would have done. There is no difference to the player, just an irrational fear that casting a trans person may mean that a vaguely "better" cis person may have been passed up.

 

I see this all of the time in discussions of inclusion in games. This worry that by being inclusive, the rest of the game is somehow likely to suffer.


  • Samahl aime ceci

#171
Maeshone

Maeshone
  • Members
  • 299 messages

Hm... I can't say I really buy that. Sounds like a pretty big stretch to try and justify why trans roles don't have to go to trans actors. For me, it's enough to say "There are very few trans roles out there. Why not give them to the talented trans actors (and believe me, they exist) who otherwise are largely ignored or looked over in favor of their cis colleagues?" To me, that's more than enough justification. 

I'm really not trying to justify anything, I was just pointing out that fictional societies do not always match up to our society in certain aspects. I believe that any role should go to the most fitting/talented actor. In general, we should strive to hire more minority representatives, but only having trans people in the casting for trans characters seems exclusionary to me. But then, my ideals would only work properly in a more perfect world as well.

 

One more thing, and I swear I'll try to step back from this thread, hahaha... On the subject of "We should always hire the best/most talented person for the role":

 

When I comes right down to it, 'talent' and 'skill' are largely subjective qualities, and the entertainment industry is not entirely fair, nor unbiased. I would hazard a bet that if you got two actors, one trans and one cis (or one black and one white) of equal skill, talent, and experience, a casting director might find themselves judging the cis (or white) actor to be "more qualified" or "more talented" without ever realizing that their own biases are impacting their judgement. And that's not to say that hypothetical casting director is willfully transphobic or racist-- it's just that these biases are hard to shake (sometimes even hard to realize we have them) when we grow up in a society that teaches us, through our media, what is 'normal' (and thus acceptable).

And I hate that this is actually an issue, but I know that is the sad truth. I'd also like to thank you for the civil debate.  :)

 

Thedas isn't actually a non-sexist utopia. I doubt being trans would be trivial.

Didn't say it was. I said it might treat transsexuals differently from our society.

 

 

There are billions of people in the world, to select *the* absolute "best" actor for a role is not possible. It is not realistic to begin with so I don't see why people are actually suggesting it as if it's an attainable goal.

But you can find the absolute best in a specific group of people, in this case, the actors audition for a role. Nobody is saying that we should have a casting for every single person in the world.

 

So, in the history of film/TV/video games, there has never been a trans actor who has been the most qualified for the job?

That really isn't what Sylvius said. He just brought up population statistics, that while only tangentially relevant to the issue still hold true. Trans people are a minority, that (most likely) means that they are also in a minority representation among most professions, including voice actors.

 

 

And it's not as if, as players and not developers, they would know all of the people who auditioned for the role and how well they would have done. There is no difference to the player, just an irrational fear that casting a trans person may mean that a vaguely "better" cis person may have been passed up.

 

I see this all of the time in discussions of inclusion in games. This worry that by being inclusive, the rest of the game is somehow likely to suffer.

While I can only speak for myself, this really isn't the way I feel about the issue at all. If the developers pick an actor, I have no reasons to think there was anyone better. I just really don't care about who the actor is in his/her personal life, I care about the end result, the character. I will trust that the developers, especially ones who put so much emphasis on their characters as Bioware, will have picked the absolute best actor that was availible. 



#172
aaarcher86

aaarcher86
  • Members
  • 1 977 messages
Didn't this discussion get one thread locked already?

#173
JadePrince

JadePrince
  • Members
  • 851 messages

I'm really not trying to justify anything, I was just pointing out that fictional societies do not always match up to our society in certain aspects. I believe that any role should go to the most fitting/talented actor. In general, we should strive to hire more minority representatives, but only having trans people in the casting for trans characters seems exclusionary to me. But then, my ideals would only work properly in a more perfect world as well.

 

And I hate that this is actually an issue, but I know that is the sad truth. I'd also like to thank you for the civil debate.  :)

 

 

Sure, thank you for staying civil as well, and being open-minded about hearing my thoughts. It's true, a lot of these hypotheticals would make sense in a more perfect world and it's important to talk about these issues in the context of the (still evolving, not-perfect) world in which we live now. 

 

Hopefully, one day we'll live in a world where talented trans actors have the same chances and opportunities to audition (and be cast!) that cis people have.



#174
Samahl

Samahl
  • Members
  • 1 825 messages

That really isn't what Sylvius said. He just brought up population statistics, that while only tangentially relevant to the issue still hold true. Trans people are a minority, that (most likely) means that they are also in a minority representation among most professions, including voice actors.

 

You would think there'd be at least one prominent role being filled by a trans actor though. The only example I can think of is Laverne Cox in Orange is the New Black, and that's not even voice acting.



#175
JadePrince

JadePrince
  • Members
  • 851 messages

Didn't this discussion get one thread locked already?

 

Everyone here is talking calmly and with civility. There's no reason it should get locked unless someone else enters the conversation to make trouble or troll.