161 réponses à ce sujet

[TurretSyndrome]

A USB Key that is used in a computer uses a different file system then a console (at least with my 360) so you couldn't just plug in a USB key into both devices and have the content easily read.  Both Sony and Microsoft would have to allow their file systems that are unique to them to be used outside of their consoles.

 

I searched the internet for a bit and found out that you can indeed backup your game data(which would obviously also include the Keep data) to a USB drive. All you need to do is format the USB drive(upto 32 GB storage) to FAT 32 file system on your Windows computer before you use it with your console. After that you can freely use your USB to back up from or load the data to your console.

 

You are talking about a feature that doesn't exist right now at a stage of the game's development where the features are locked and we are fixing bugs. By providing a singular solution that works on all 5 platforms (known data is transferred via the internet with no user intervention) we have already solved this problem. Someone mentioned the possibility that Sony and Microsoft might disallow filesystem access in this manner. I am pretty certain that kind of interaction is prohibited, but I will check when I am back in the office on Tuesday.

 

I think people have asked for this support quite a few months ago and were told it can't be done. I'm just pointing that out because you seem to imply that it's being asked for now(perhaps more loudly now). I can understand if it's too late to implement it, as I said before I was just curious why the notion of it was shot down when it was suggested. I think this feature is more an aspect of the Keep than the game itself, therefore it'll remain useful as long as the Keep remains useful, if it's ever implemented.

 

Anyway, this link talks about what can be backed up or loaded onto the X360. Unless the Keep data is not "game data", there is nothing prohibiting it from being loaded onto the console. The PS3 one doesn't say much beyond that it also supports data backup and restoration using a USB drive.

[andy6915]

My thing about the keep is, why does it need to be a cloud system? Why can't it just be a menu that doesn't need online, just set your world states right there on the new game menu and hit confirm and off you go? It's just needlessly complicated by needing the extra step. Never mind if I want to play DAI again in 10 years and the server for Keep has been long deactivated, leaving me just straight-up screwed (this is always the danger of a game needing a server for a vital function of gameplay). And don't tell me you can't let us without it, I've seen enough mods of the prior games to know that setting world states is quite easy and no cloud database is needed. It's just... Stupid, not letting you customize your world state without needing to go online on your computer and login to the Keep and set everything up then go back to your game and make the game go online so it can read your cloud account settings to then finally let you start your game. There's a good several steps there that could be skipped for the better.

[pdusen]

My thing about the keep is, why does it need to be a cloud system? Why can't it just be a menu that doesn't need online, just set your world states right there on the new game menu and hit confirm and off you go? It's just needlessly complicated by needing the extra step. Never mind if I want to play DAI again in 10 years and the server for Keep has been long deactivated, leaving me just straight-up screwed (this is always the danger of a game needing a server for a vital function of gameplay). And don't tell me you can't let us without it, I've seen enough mods of the prior games to know that setting world states is quite easy and no cloud database is needed. It's just... Stupid, not letting you customize your world state without needing to go online on your computer and login to the Keep and set everything up then go back to your game and make the game go online so it can read your cloud account settings to then finally let you start your game. There's a good several steps there that could be skipped for the better.

 

1. It's cloud-based because fixing bugs in a cloud service is significantly faster and cheaper than fixing bugs in something included as part of the game. Remember that there's a long and expensive patch development and certification process to fix anything in a game. Which means if they launched DAI and there was a particular flag in the wizard that a user just flat-out couldn't set for some reason, then it would be months before it would be fixed. Not to mention that they would have to go through the whole development process again for the NEXT game, whereas they can just re-use the existing cloud service.

 

2. You don't need to go on your PC to use the Keep. It's a web app that runs on anything with a browser. It will run on your phone, your tablet, or even your console, assuming it has a browser.

[Sanunes]

My thing about the keep is, why does it need to be a cloud system? Why can't it just be a menu that doesn't need online, just set your world states right there on the new game menu and hit confirm and off you go? It's just needlessly complicated by needing the extra step. Never mind if I want to play DAI again in 10 years and the server for Keep has been long deactivated, leaving me just straight-up screwed (this is always the danger of a game needing a server for a vital function of gameplay). And don't tell me you can't let us without it, I've seen enough mods of the prior games to know that setting world states is quite easy and no cloud database is needed. It's just... Stupid, not letting you customize your world state without needing to go online on your computer and login to the Keep and set everything up then go back to your game and make the game go online so it can read your cloud account settings to then finally let you start your game. There's a good several steps there that could be skipped for the better.

 

We don't know how the keep is going to work unless we are in the beta and when designing the system they have to keep all their customers in mind and not just the ones that would be able to follow a menu based system. Having The Keep separate from the game allows them to have different people working on the application as well because its two different skill sets that are being used.

[Fredvdp]

I wish there were a tool to upload save files into the Keep for the simple reason that I don't remember all of the choices I made. If there's an easy to use tool to read plot flags of both DAO and DA2, then that's fine by me.

[Derek French]

Unless the Keep data is not "game data"...

That's pretty much it right there. The Keep data doesn't actually qualify as game data, because the game did not create it; an external service did.

[TurretSyndrome]

That's pretty much it right there. The Keep data doesn't actually qualify as game data, because the game did not create it; an external service did.

 

You sure it wouldn't be categorized as game data in the console and by the console, after it is downloaded? Why would it be placed anywhere else in the file system? The only data the consoles prohibit you to access data is when the data is related to the system itself or the games themselves. The Keep data would be neither but in the same category as save files and trophies/achievements data. 

[Revan Reborn]

A traditional save game import would certainly be convenient for those of us who play DA on PC. With such a large emphasis on DAK, and the fact that most of the DA player base is on consoles, it's unlikely to happen. As long as BioWare adequately provides enough context and detail in the keep to convince me that I am recreating the world states and choices I made in the two previous installments, I won't mind too much.

[Derek French]

You sure it wouldn't be categorized as game data in the console and by the console, after it is downloaded? Why would it be placed anywhere else in the file system? The only data the consoles prohibit you to access data is when the data is related to the system itself or the games themselves. The Keep data would be neither but in the same category as save files and trophies/achievements data. 

It is all about Sony and Microsoft approvals. Since the Keep is not a program that runs on their consoles as a native app, it doesn't run through their certification programs. The data it generates, in their eyes, is not game data, but untrusted data from an unknown source.

[Spicen]

I wonder is some can make a save generator for PC. Blessings to whoever tries.

[Fredvdp]

I wonder is some can make a save generator for PC. Blessings to whoever tries.

Isn't that what the Keep is? Or do you mean a tool that converts DA:O/DA2 data to a DA:I save?

In any case, Gibbed has made save generators before, for ME2, ME3, and Dragon Age Origins and Awakening. Maybe he'll attempt something for DA:I.

[Spicen]

Isn't that what the Keep is? Or do you mean a tool that converts DA:O/DA2 data to a DA:I save?

In any case, Gibbed has made save generators before, for ME2, ME3, and Dragon Age Origins and Awakening. Maybe he'll attempt something for DA:I.

The latter or a da keep that doesnt require internet.
And who is this gibbed? I wud like to have a word with him.

[Travie]

It is all about Sony and Microsoft approvals. Since the Keep is not a program that runs on their consoles as a native app, it doesn't run through their certification programs. The data it generates, in their eyes, is not game data, but untrusted data from an unknown source.

 

I still don't understand why you couldn't use a code system, like what was done with ME2-3 faces. Just generate a code at the end of the Keep process that tells the game what choices you made. 

 

Then people could just enter the code manually, or copy/paste.

[Fredvdp]

The latter or a da keep that doesnt require internet.
And who is this gibbed? I wud like to have a word with him.

He's a modder. This is his site: http://blog.gib.me/

[Thandal N'Lyman]

I still don't understand why you couldn't use a code system, like what was done with ME2-3 faces. Just generate a code at the end of the Keep process that tells the game what choices you made. 

 

Then people could just enter the code manually, or copy/paste.

 

a.  The Keep doesn't include a Character Creator at all.

 

b.  Even if there were a way to "export" your DAO/DA2 face, it wouldn't be of any use to DA:I because doing so requires that the games use the same engine to create the meshes and textures.  (Note: This is part of why ME1 faces can't be directly imported into ME2.  Also, that ME1 didn't actually "save" the settings, just the results.  Sort of like why DAO faces can't be edited later.)

 

With the switch from Eclipse to FrostBite3, this just isn't possible.

[andy6915]

1. It's cloud-based because fixing bugs in a cloud service is significantly faster and cheaper than fixing bugs in something included as part of the game. Remember that there's a long and expensive patch development and certification process to fix anything in a game. Which means if they launched DAI and there was a particular flag in the wizard that a user just flat-out couldn't set for some reason, then it would be months before it would be fixed. Not to mention that they would have to go through the whole development process again for the NEXT game, whereas they can just re-use the existing cloud service.

 

So the entire reason for it being such a pain in the ass process is it simply makes it easier to fix. Great. As if much fixing is even needed, it's pretty much just a program that does the same thing as a gibbed save generator. That never needing much fixing whatsover, it just tells the game what background history it's using. How can that possibly be so complicated that they made it cloud so patching is easier when it's something that should be so simple that patching more than once or twice should be unheard of? The fan made save generators didn't need constant fixes, yet the Keep will to the point that they made it overcomplicated just so patching is faster?

 

There's writing on the wall here, and it's telling me something stinks. It seems to me that Bioware is effectively saying that they're much worse at making a simple save generator than their fans are even though they have backing from EA and dozens of skilled developers. It also sounds to me that I should just skip the Keep and just use the gibbed save generators, they do the same thing with far less hassle than this sounds like.

[dulku66]

I just hope they figure somthing out for people who cant use internet on there box.I dont no how difficult it will be but if it was easy bioware would have done it already but they have an extra month PLEASE BIOWARE figure something out for this and other long time Bioware fan since 96 the days of shattered steel.

[CrazyGobstopper]

a.  The Keep doesn't include a Character Creator at all. [...]

I don't believe that Travie was talking about character creation, but rather using the ME character creation codes as an example of what he wishes could be done with DA Keep for a world state.

 

 

There's writing on the wall here, and it's telling me something stinks. It seems to me that Bioware is effectively saying that they're much worse at making a simple save generator than their fans are even though they have backing from EA and dozens of skilled developers. It also sounds to me that I should just skip the Keep and just use the gibbed save generators, they do the same thing with far less hassle than this sounds like.

The Keep also exists to future-proof the importation of world state data into new installments in the franchise. The simple save generators that you are talking about import only decisions that are known to be relevant to a given game. The Keep will be recording decisions that aren't relevant in a given game, but that may be incorporated into a later game.

 

For an example: Whether or not Shale is alive after your DAO playthrough (and particularly if she knows she was once Shayle of House Cadash) may not matter in DAI, but it may be necessary to know in DA4. Furthermore, since the Keep will automatically be recording DAI world state data if a player is online while playing DAI, the Keep will have that information for future games without a player needing to go through all of the decisions (DAO, DA2, and DAI) in the Keep interface for DA4, etc.

[Thandal N'Lyman]

So the entire reason for it being such a pain in the ass process is it simply makes it easier to fix. Great.... <snip>

 

No. 

 

The entire reason is because the previous mechanisms were broken.  No way to go back and fix the borked "end of DAO into DAA" saves, and no way to ensure that logically inconsistent saves ("Alistair is Dead *and* King") aren't employed.  And no other (simple, inexpensive) way to import world-states between different platforms.

 

Since those were two major design goals, the result reflects that! 

[Thandal N'Lyman]

I don't believe that Travie was talking about character creation, but rather using the ME character creation codes as an example of what he wishes could be done with DA Keep for a world state.

 

 

Yes, and...  The Keep does exactly this.  It reduces the world-state to a set of codes that can be re-used, changed, imported, exported, etc., across both game versions (DA4, anyone?) and platforms. 

 

But first, that world-state has to be put into a "normalized" format (aka "a schema") that is consistent across all environments.  Hence; "The Keep"! 

[CrazyGobstopper]

I probably should stop speaking for him/her, but I believe that Travie's point is a desire to have the Keep generate a publicly-viewable code that can be manually entered during new game creation, for people who don't have the ability (for whatever reason) to connect their consoles to a network.

[andy6915]

I probably should stop speaking for him/her, but I believe that Travie's point is a desire to have the Keep generate a publicly-viewable code that can be manually entered during new game creation, for people who don't have the ability (for whatever reason) to connect their consoles to a network.

Exactly mine too, even though I have no problem with online (at least somewhat, my point about the Keep being inert 10 years from now because it needs a server still stands). Why can't it just be in the game itself in some form that you can just access and pick what you want right on the "new game" menu? It would be so much simpler.

[pdusen]

Exactly mine too, even though I have no problem with online (at least somewhat, my point about the Keep being inert 10 years from now because it needs a server still stands). Why can't it just be in the game itself in some form that you can just access and pick what you want right on the "new game" menu? It would be so much simpler.

 

You've been given lots of good reasons, but you're still asking, so clearly you're not really interested in having it explained to you.

[CrazyGobstopper]

Why can't it just be in the game itself in some form that you can just access and pick what you want right on the "new game" menu? It would be so much simpler.

That reason has already been explained. It would be more difficult from a programming standpoint for at least two reasons: 1) internal QA on the fix to determine if the fix actually breaks something else; and 2) the fix would need to go through Microsoft and Sony certification processes before a patch could be pushed out to users on those platforms. Those certification times are rarely short. Oh the other hand, a flaw in the Keep could be more quickly identified, fixed, tested, and pushed live to players.

 

There are easily other reasons, which have been elucidated in both this thread and the sticky thread about the Keep.

 

In the past, developers and publishers could have been reluctant to patch games on console systems for another reason: doing so would cost them more money to the console owner.

[andy6915]

You've been given lots of good reasons, but you're still asking, so clearly you're not really interested in having it explained to you.

 

Good reasons? Try asinine ones that are absolutely stupid. So far I've heard-

 

1.easier to patch (won't even need patched that often anyway, gibbed save generators didn't)

 

2.does better at preventing conflicting saves (a non-online version accessed from a new game would be just as good at this)

 

3.can be used cross-platform (so could my version, you can do the adjustments offline right in the in-game menu but can upload to them server optionally so that you only need to go online if you're switching consoles or game generations)

 

 

So yeah, I haven't heard one damn good reason yet. Maybe when I get one I'll change my stance... I suspect that will be more of an "if I get one" then a "when".