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No healing between combats.


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#1
b09boy

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Ok, I'm getting that they're trying to go for an older school vibe here.  But unless I'm missing a bunch, they're really missing the mark.  Please try to bear with me and tell me if I'm mistaken, because this is really making me scratch my head.  I'm not meaning to flame or troll and would be pleasantly surprised if there's something vital and good I'm missing here.

 

Basically the idea is that after combat you no longer regenerate health, or at least not all the way.  You need to take potions, of which you have limited supply, or have a dedicated healer with you.  The idea being that each time you venture out the encounters slowly grind you down to a nub where you're scrounging for every last resource.

 

Ok, that's great and all.  But something has to give somewhere.  Not many would be able to live off of tough encounters like in BG or DA:O like that simply as is.  It'd just be too difficult.  Back in the old school days you could just rest, get your spells back, and heal.  That's not what they're going for here, though.  At least from what I understand.  This leaves us with one of a few different ideas, none of which sound appealing.

 

First, you have dedicated healers.  But this doesn't make any sense.  Why implement a system like this if healers are a dime per dozen?  That'd be pointless.  It's just making the player waste time between combat, healing back to normal and waiting to recharge. Basically, complicating things for no reason.  I find this to be the best case scenario.

 

Second, you only have one or two dedicated healers.  They are a resource, and can't do as much offensively, but are useful to heal the party.  Problem here is that these suddenly become the single most valuable party members in the game by default, even if they are limited offensively, because they can hand out the most valuable resource for free and at will: health.  Having a party without this party member is making things needlessly difficult for no real reason.  This basically becomes like the first option, only the party is extremely unbalanced.

 

Third, mana is as rare as health.  This just isn't going to happen.  Limiting all the flashy spellcasting to an extent is obvious, but limiting it across an entire questline is an insanely bad idea for reasons I don't especially feel the need to explain.

 

Fourth, healing spells don't work off the mana system.  They work more like potions, and can be used a certain number of times.  This wouldn't work though.  It's still too potentially limiting.  It's going back to square one, basically, with just a bit more healing to get you by.

 

Fifth, enemies are easy.  They can grind you down slowly, sure, but there's little to no danger from any individual encounter.  Why?  Because your Inquisitor is a boss and enemies are stupid, don't have much health, don't cause many negative effects, and most have only simple attacks, maybe a knockdown or the like here or there.  I find this to be arguably the worst option here.  This would make combat boring.  Facing simple opponents isn't rewarding.

 

With that said, it seems from the videos presented thus far that they're going with option 5 here, maybe with 2 or 1 mixed in.  AI has looked very simplistic so far, responding and attacking slowly and generally not being a threat at all to any party.  If that's the case...really not looking forward to this game.  I mean, that's a mechanic that'd make things arguably worse than DA2' random waves.


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#2
Lieutenant Kurin

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I have no idea how they'll deal with this, but it's worth pointing out that all the combat, from small encounters to the dragon in the demo was simplified a bit for the sake of ease (dying during a demo isn't often an option, takes too much time to load, etc.). So likely encounters will be harder than previously shown.


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#3
b09boy

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I have no idea how they'll deal with this, but it's worth pointing out that all the combat, from small encounters to the dragon in the demo was simplified a bit for the sake of ease (dying during a demo isn't often an option, takes too much time to load, etc.). So likely encounters will be harder than previously shown.

 

I keep hearing that things were put on easy during the demos, but that doesn't make sense to me.  In the demos they had an invincibility cheat on so there was no threat of dying.



#4
Enchant_m3nt

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I keep hearing that things were put on easy during the demos, but that doesn't make sense to me.  In the demos they had an invincibility cheat on so there was no threat of dying.

I dunno, did they? One or two got very close to dying at one point. And then they drank a potion. 


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#5
Icy Magebane

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You make some good points, and I share your concerns about how healing will be handled.  Unfortunately I have no information to give you.  Right now I'm of the opinion that the system will be easy to subvert, but that it may require constant backtracking to a safe zone or some other tedious method of abusing the game mechanics... I don't know what they are going to do, but I'm sure there will be a way around it.  It'll just waste our time though, without actually increasing the difficulty.  I hope that I'm proven wrong.


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#6
A Clever Name

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It sounds as though the devs have decided to put limitations on healing spells, so that you cannot "spam" them, so to speak.  Reliable health regeneration outside of combat is going to fall on potions and a camp system, from what I could see from the E3 demo.  In the Redcliffe demo it showed the Inquisitor and co. stopping at a camp, with an option to rest at the campfire, which I assume is a method of regenerating health.  To what extent?  We don't really know.  You could fast travel from the location map to the camp, though, which makes me wonder if you first establish a foothold in a region where you can switch out party members and heal up before continuing exploration.

 

DA:I is probably going to remind me of Morrowind, what with not being able to regenerate health.   :P  Should be challenging, but I don't think it'll be impossible.  And if combat difficulty is a great concern to you, you can always choose to go for a more challenging one.



#7
Aaleel

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They didn't have regenerating health in Dragon'S Dogma and it really didn't bother me at all.  You just had to plan before you left the town, and in the beginning of the game before you get strong you honestly have to avoid fighting some things on long trips or in dungeons.  I doubt DA:I will even take it as far, because in Dragon's Dogma even if you had a mage they couldn't bring you back to max health once you started taking damage.  You had to use a healing item.

 

I kind of liked that aspect, and after a while not having regenerating health was an afterthought. 

 

Is there a weight capacity in DA:I?


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#8
Ninjasplaycardgames2

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They didn't have regenerating health in Dragon'S Dogma and it really didn't bother me at all.  You just had to plan before you left the town, and in the beginning of the game before you get strong you honestly have to avoid fighting some things on long trips or in dungeons.  I doubt DA:I will even take it as far, because in Dragon's Dogma even if you had a mage they couldn't bring you back to max health once you started taking damage.  You had to use a healing item.

 

I kind of liked that aspect, and after a while not having regenerating health was an afterthought. 

 

Is there a weight capacity in DA:I?

oh you meant strictly DAI nevermind 


Modifié par Ninjasplaycardgames2, 02 août 2014 - 10:48 .


#9
Icy Magebane

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They didn't have regenerating health in Dragon'S Dogma and it really didn't bother me at all.  You just had to plan before you left the town, and in the beginning of the game before you get strong you honestly have to avoid fighting some things on long trips or in dungeons.  I doubt DA:I will even take it as far, because in Dragon's Dogma even if you had a mage they couldn't bring you back to max health once you started taking damage.  You had to use a healing item.

 

I kind of liked that aspect, and after a while not having regenerating health was an afterthought. 

 

Is there a weight capacity in DA:I?

Yeah, but between the Arisen and their pawns, you could carry a hundred spring waters in addition to other healing items.  You could just walk around and randomly pick up herbs to heal yourself with.  The problem with this new system is that it will limit healing magic and potion capacity.  I'd also wager that we'll have long cooldowns for both, which just leads to a bunch of standing around.

 

I'm not really against the removal of health regeneration by itself, but in addition to these other potential restrictions, it sounds like it may end up being more trouble than it's worth.

 

As far as the weight restriction, I don't know.  I think that the limit on potions will be a numerical limit, independent of what they might actually weigh.


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#10
Vroom Vroom

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This is something that I have been concerned about as well, I believe that I should be able to play how I want, but it is what it is. I'm not saying that I want an instant win the game button, but I do like having a load of health potions to fall back on when things hit the fan. I find this decision as odd seeing as how they had a cool down rate in the other games, so I don't really get the change. If the game ends up being too difficult than I'm going to grind the low level areas until I am over powered to the point that I don't even need a healer. I'm hoping that we get more information on this soon. 


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#11
Icy Magebane

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This is something that I have been concerned about as well, I believe that I should be able to play how I want, but it is what it is. I'm not saying that I want an instant win the game button, but I do like having a load of health potions to fall back on when things hit the fan. I find this decision as odd seeing as how they had a cool down rate in the other games, so I don't really get the change. If the game ends up being too difficult than I'm going to grind the low level areas until I am over powered to the point that I don't even need a healer. I'm hoping that we get more information on this soon. 

See, this is the other issue I have.  A limit on potions seems arbitrary if it's strictly numerical.  If there was an overall weight limit that I had to abide by, that would be fine.  I could then decide to carry extra loot or potions.  Forcing the party to wander out into an unknown wilderness or hostile enemy camp with what is obviously a low number of health potions doesn't make a lot of sense.  What exactly is preventing the Inquisitor from carrying a surplus of potions?

 

But w/e... we'll see how it turns out.  It might work out better than I expect it to.  Since we have almost no info, I'll reserve judgement.


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#12
Maria Caliban

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Your health regenerates outside of combat to a specific level that's dependent on the difficulty. On easy, I imagine you might get 80% of your health back while normal is 60%.

We don't know if there's a limit on healing spells and there's no indication that you need a 'dedicated' healer to get access to the basic heal spell.

Potions are limited, but presumably after the fight, you'll be able to loot bodies and possibly pick one up. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a crafting skill that let you make potions 'in the field' as well.

A limit on potions seems arbitrary if it's strictly numerical.


It is 'arbitrary', just like armor requiring 50 dexterity to wear is 'arbitrary'. Your health healing to a random percentage is 'arbitrary'. Not being able to pick up charge before you get taunt is 'arbitrary'.

Game systems are built around balancing for gameplay, not making sense within the setting.
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#13
Aaleel

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Yeah, but between the Arisen and their pawns, you could carry a hundred spring waters in addition to other healing items.  You could just walk around and randomly pick up herbs to heal yourself with.  The problem with this new system is that it will limit healing magic and potion capacity.  I'd also wager that we'll have long cooldowns for both, which just leads to a bunch of standing around.

 

I'm not really against the removal of health regeneration by itself, but in addition to these other potential restrictions, it sounds like it may end up being more trouble than it's worth.

 

As far as the weight restriction, I don't know.  I think that the limit on potions will be a numerical limit, independent of what they might actually weigh.

 

Yeah, but the problem was if you fought something like a chimera on the road while you were lower level you'd burn all your healing items, and I won't even go into some of the BBI runs when I first started that.  There weren't a lot of healing items laying around in there, so it was stuff you had to run from.  That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.  Let alone trying to run through without a mage at all.

 

I just got used to it, and the better the healing item, the more they weighed because the higher level you got, Spring water and greenwarsh just didn't cut it anymore.

 

That's why I wondered if there was a weight limit in DA:I.



#14
Aaleel

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Hopefully if they do try to limit potions they fix the cheat they had in DA:2, where the game only looked at how many you had on your person.  Then you could put them all in a chest at home, and pretty much every enemy would drop one until you had ten or whatever it was in your inventory again.  You could just stock up.


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#15
efd731

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It works in a similar manner to mass effect as far as I know. The health bar is divided into segments, the segement you're at will regenerate, but is a segment is completely drained than it will not regen. Potions fill segments, and also restore health. The healing magic relies upon the new "focus" mechanic they showed in the demo, meaning it is very powerful, but requires time and effort to be able to use.

#16
Maria Caliban

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Hopefully if they do try to limit potions they fix the cheat they had in DA:2, where the game only looked at how many you had on your person.  Then you could put them all in a chest at home, and pretty much every enemy would drop one until you had ten or whatever it was in your inventory again.  You could just stock up.


Why would you want them to fix that cheat?

I don't care if someone wants to stack up on potions. I don't care if they want to toggle god mode and destroy everything in one hit. That doesn't hurt my game at all.
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#17
Icy Magebane

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Yeah, but the problem was if you fought something like a chimera on the road while you were lower level you'd burn all your healing items, and I won't even go into some of the BBI runs when I first started that.  There weren't a lot of healing items laying around in there, so it was stuff you had to run from.  That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.  Let alone trying to run through without a mage at all.

 

I just got used to it, and the better the healing item, the more they weighed because the higher level you got, Spring water and greenwarsh just didn't cut it anymore.

Spring water is always useful, because your pawns will use it automatically and keep you from being killed in one hit (like from a BBI Elder Ogre).  I always made sure they had 5-10 at all times during the game, but you're right, they are not useful for normal healing once you are able to get the more powerful items.  Personally I never used mages.  Not being able to fully heal hp made them pretty useless after you reach Gran Soren... plus, the healing spell took forever, and the upgraded one.  lol... even more standing around waiting for them to cast it after combat.  And then after they finally cast it, you have to wait for the spell itself to heal you because it wasn't instant.  I always just used items instead...

 

I could talk about Dragon's Dogma for ages, but it's off topic so I'll leave it at that... I am just hoping that whatever DAI gives us, it's not a contrived system with obvious but tedious methods of circumvention.  I am more than willing to walk or fast travel back to camp every time I run out of potions or wind up with low health.  Heck, fast travel might be a way to avoid paying for potions at all.  I just hope that they don't go overboard in trying to "fix" the old system.  I don't need to be hamstrung by a lot of pointless restrictions that I can easily get around as long as I'm willing to act out of character (example: fast traveling after every combat).



#18
Aaleel

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Why would you want them to fix that cheat?

I don't care if someone wants to stack up on potions. I don't care if they want to toggle god mode and destroy everything in one hit. That doesn't hurt my game at all.

 

Well I was talking more from a developer standpoint because having that cheat would defeat the purpose of what they're trying to do.


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#19
Maria Caliban

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Outside of multiplayer, I don't recall ever seeing a developer care about the player using actual game hacks or elaborate methods to bypass the AI or mechanics.

In Tomb Raider, I've won fights by standing in a spot that forces the enemies to pop directly in my view one-by-one so I can easily head shot them. In Kingdoms of Amalur, I used a hex file editor to give myself a bunch of skill points at the beginning of the game. In Baldur's Gate II, I used the console to change my female toon's gender to 'male' so I could romance Viconia, Jaheria, and Flying Elf Girl.

Maybe it's just to make myself feel good, but I don't imagine anyone would involved with those games would be bothered by what I've done. It's is, after all, a game. Exploiting existing mechanics can be a satisfying form of play. Tinkering with the rules of the universe can also be fun.
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#20
Urazz

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I wonder if the limit on potions is overall inventory of potions or if it's something like each character has their own stash of potions that they can carry and use.


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#21
Icy Magebane

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It is 'arbitrary', just like armor requiring 50 dexterity to wear is 'arbitrary'. Your health healing to a random percentage is 'arbitrary'. Not being able to pick up charge before you get taunt is 'arbitrary'.

Game systems are built around balancing for gameplay, not making sense within the setting.

Um, no... using attributes to determine whether you are strong or agile enough to effectively move around in armor is logical.  Attributes are the means by which we measure a character's mental and physical abilities.  Telling me that I can only carry 5 health potions without explaining why is arbitrary, especially if I'm also allowed to carry around multiple suits of chainmail to sell when I get back to town.


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#22
Altima Darkspells

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I would assume potion limitations would be like DA2--you can buy them, but if you have above X number of potions, then potions stop dropping randomly. Likewise, if you're below X, then potions drop frequently until you're at X, with X getting lower at higher difficulty.

It was a decent system, and I don't see why BioWare would change it.

Also, potions can be crafted from materials found.

I wonder if the health regening system can be exploited by holding off leveling, since leveling in BioWare games tends to refresh a player and cleanse them of all health and wounds. Keeping everyone's leveled up until right before a big boss? Fun.

#23
Maria Caliban

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Um, no... using attributes to determine whether you are strong or agile enough to effectively move around in armor is logical.


What?

Enasalin.jpg

This armor set requires 25 dex and 15 cun just to wear. Why would you need 25 dex to put a tunic, vest, and pants? A person doesn't need an almost superhuman level of dexterity to get dressed in the morning.
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#24
Icy Magebane

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This armor set requires 25 dex and 15 cun just to wear. Why would you need 25 dex to put a tunic, vest, and pants? A person doesn't need an almost superhuman level of dexterity to get dressed in the morning.

Hey, I didn't design the system.  Maybe it should have been designed so that anyone can put on any armor, but if you didn't meet the requirements, it applied a severe movement speed or defense penalty.  A design oversight, or an intentionally simplistic system, doesn't mean that attributes in general are a poor way of explaining why certain characters perform better with certain equipment.

 

You aren't going to tell me that strength is a poor way of dictating how effectively a person can wield a greatsword, I hope.


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#25
ButterRum

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This is why there are different levels of difficulty for the game. So don't fret about not having enough potions. You can always turn down the difficulty.