59 réponses à ce sujet

[metatheurgist]

Game systems are built around balancing for gameplay, not making sense within the setting.

 
They used to be able to make games that found a balance between gameplay and realism. Those were good days and good games. It's like it's a lost art now.
 

This armor set requires 25 dex and 15 cun just to wear. Why would you need 25 dex to put a tunic, vest, and pants? A person doesn't need an almost superhuman level of dexterity to get dressed in the morning.

Some mornings I feel like I need superhuman abilities to get my pants on. (Also, how do you know 25 is superhuman? In this bad modern game design the number is pretty meaningless as has been pointed out many times before).

[Maria Caliban]

Hey, I didn't design the system.

But you are arguing that needing 25 dex to wear a vest is somehow less arbitrary than only being able to hold 4 potions at once.
 

You aren't going to tell me that strength is a poor way of dictating how effectively a person can wield a greatsword, I hope.

It is. Dexterity, stamina, and skill are more important than strength when it comes to a greatsword. At best, strength should determine your maximum, non-critical damage. DA uses strength though because strength is the warrior stat, not dex.

Moreover, it's not that you can't use a greatsword effectively with low strength, it's that you can't even pick one up and attempt to use it at all.

[tmp7704]

This armor set requires 25 dex and 15 cun just to wear. Why would you need 25 dex to put a tunic, vest, and pants? A person doesn't need an almost superhuman level of dexterity to get dressed in the morning.

obligatory

[Icy Magebane]

But you are arguing that needing 25 dex to wear a vest is somehow less arbitrary than only being able to hold 4 potions at once.
 
It is. Dexterity, stamina, and skill are more important than strength when it comes to a greatsword. At best, strength should determine your maximum, non-critical damage. DA uses strength though because strength is the warrior stat, not dex.

Moreover, it's not that you can't use a greatsword effectively with low strength, it's that you can't even pick one up and attempt to use it at all.

And all of that proves the arbitrary nature of attributes... how?  Regardless of exactly which attribute should determine what, you seem to recognize that they are a clear and useful method of measuring human ability.  Thus, they are logical descriptors, and a reasonable way to place limitations on the effective use of equipment.  When I say, "I didn't design it," and follow up with specific examples of how to make the system more complex, that should make it clear that I am suggesting that the implementation could have been improved.  It doesn't mean that I think the entire philosophy behind attributes is bogus.  "25 dex" means something because it is a concrete value that fits within the game rules.  It could be 2500 dex, so long as the scale is shifted accordingly.  It's not a random number, and just like any unit of measurement in the real world, it makes sense within the context of the game's setting.

 

On the other hand, a loot system that allows me to carry multiple greatswords, broadswords, plate armors, books, plot items, and crafting components, but limits the amount of potions I can carry is, in fact, based upon an arbitrary restriction.  It's not based on weight, it's not based on backpack space, and I do not have the option of choosing to carry more potions instead of some other item.  It's strictly a game mechanic meant to limit my ability to use potions, and has no logical justification.  Thus, it is arbitrary.

[tmp7704]

Thus, they are logical descriptors, and a reasonable way to place limitations on the effective use of equipment.

I'd argue "reasonable" is here with a caveat that having restrictions of who can equip what is artificial and "gamey" in the first place, and not exactly logical. They're there to enforce class diversification and/or prevent low level characters from equipping high level gear, and neither of these goals is something that's necessary in the game. More of a design preference.

[Icy Magebane]

I'd argue "reasonable" is here with a caveat that having restrictions of who can equip what is artificial and "gamey" in the first place, and not exactly logical. They're there to enforce class diversification and/or prevent low level characters from equipping high level gear, and neither of these goals is something that's necessary in the game. More of a design preference.

In my posts, I've been stressing "effective use," not the simple act of equipping items.  If dragonbone plate is the heaviest armor in Ferelden, I can understand you needing more strength to move around in it than a simple chainmail vest.

[Maria Caliban]

You realize there are RPGs where you can get some of the best armor in the game almost immediately? In Morrowind, I managed to get a set of glass armor in the first town by lockpicking a building and stealing it all.

Not letting you equip specific armor because you don't have a high enough attribute is completely a gameplay mechanic. It does not half to exist, but the developers make it that way because they want to restrict the PC.

Same as only letting you carry 4 potions at a time. A number which you can level up as you play the game.

They are both arbitrary restrictions put in place due to gameplay considerations.

[Samahl]

You realize there are RPGs where you can get some of the best armor in the game almost immediately? In Morrowind, I managed to get a set of glass armor in the first town by lockpicking a building and stealing it all.

 

The best armor in Morrowind is made of glass?

[Icy Magebane]

You realize there are RPGs where you can get some of the best armor in the game almost immediately? In Morrowind, I managed to get a set of glass armor in the first town by lockpicking a building and stealing it all.

Not letting you equip specific armor because you don't have a high enough attribute is completely a gameplay mechanic. It does not half to exist, but the developers make it that way because they want to restrict the PC.

Same as only letting you carry 4 potions at a time. A number which you can level up as you play the game.

They are both arbitrary restrictions put in place due to gameplay considerations.

Attribute restrictions have a clear and logical basis.  They are a reflection of limitations that exist in the real world, regardless of whether or not a game franchise chooses to incorporate them.

 

Potion capacity restrictions lose any sense of realism when they exist alongside the ability to carry multiple suits of plate mail and other large, heavyweight items.  The loot system does not restrict by weight or size, yet none of these items can be swapped out in favor of carrying what I want to carry, which is more potions.

 

The former has a basis in reality and can be justified in game.  The latter has no basis in reality and no justification in game.  So how are they both arbitrary?

 

The best armor in Morrowind is made of glass?

You've never played the Elder Scrolls? 

In that series, glass is like... a really dense combination of metals and volcanic glass... it's not just normal glass like you make windows out of.

[Altima Darkspells]

The best armor in Morrowind is made of glass?

Magic volcanic glass.

And it's the best light armor.

[Samahl]

You've never played the Elder Scrolls? 

 

I've played a bit of Oblivion and Skyrim, but never seriously. Couldn't get into it, unfortunately.

 

That's... interesting, though.

[tmp7704]

Attribute restrictions have a clear and logical basis.  They are a reflection of limitations that exist in the real world, regardless of whether or not a game franchise chooses to incorporate them.

There's no world limitations I'm aware of to the effect of needing high intelligence in order to put on a robe. It makes similarly little sense that higher quality items require higher attributes -- as if anything, the better craftsmanship would mean these items are easier to use, not harder. Having systems like that in a game is okay if that's what floats the designer's boat, but let's not pretend the rules of these systems are anything but arbitrary and gamey.

[bairdduvessa]

i admit i am nervous about this, i suck at tactics and the like.  

[ladyiolanthe]

I was concerned about the healing, too, but more from the point of view of being trapped out in bad environmental conditions after a tough fight, so I asked about it during the Raptr Q&A on July 8. Here's my question and Cameron Lee's response:

 

 

If we've just fought a tough battle in an open-world area, and are a distance away from a safe camp zone where we can heal up, and damaging weather conditions arise, will we be able to use crafted items to minimize damage taken as we struggle to get back to a camp? Or will it just be a matter of hopping on our mount and getting back to our keep ASAP?

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  BioWareDAIElite in Dragon Age IIJul 8 2014 at 12:47pmYou can quick travel to any Inquisition camps which you've established in that region. That will allow you to rest up and recover your health before adventuring again. - Cameron Lee

 

So there's always that option too, if you're worried about not having enough potions.

[Maria Caliban]

The best armor in Morrowind is made of glass?

Have you never played the Elder Scrolls games?

[Samahl]

Have you never played the Elder Scrolls games?

 

I've played a bit of Oblivion and Skyrim, but never seriously. Couldn't get into it, unfortunately.

 

That's... interesting, though.

[Icy Magebane]

There's no world limitations I'm aware of to the effect of needing high intelligence in order to put on a robe. It makes similarly little sense that higher quality items require higher attributes -- as if anything, the better craftsmanship would mean these items are easier to use, not harder. Having systems like that in a game is okay if that's what floats the designer's boat, but let's not pretend the rules of these systems are anything but arbitrary and gamey.

Cherry picking a magical item that has no real world analogue does not disprove the idea that attributes such as strength, speed, and agility determine how effectively a person can wield weapons and their movement speed while wearing heavy metal suits in the real world.  I mean honestly... using magical, enchanted robes as the example to disprove me?  Ok. 

 

I'm also pretty sure that I have yet to make any attempt to justify restrictions that apply to the simple act of equipping items.  I don't know why you continue to ignore the numerous times I have mentioned the "effective use" of weapons and armor, but please understand that putting words in my mouth or making arguments on my behalf is not going to actually alter my stance.

 

edit:  Actually, before anyone even brings this up, if you put on a big suit of metal armor but you don't have the strength to move around, you have zero combat effectiveness in said armor... and with that, I'm done.  Accept my argument or not, but at this point the debate is going nowhere.

[Panda]

Only game so far I have played without health regen is Reckoning: Kingdoms of Amalur and I find it mostly annoying there. You can have health regen for special altars or potions for while but otherwise that's about it. Lack of health regen really takes lot away of my eager of gameplay of DAI. I guess I will just stay with easy then.

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

In the E3 demo it had a shot of the menu where you can select which spells/skills you want to equip and it showed that the Inquisitor currently had 20 health potions in their inventory, and it also showed that you could stop at camps to rest. So I'm not as worried about constantly dying as I previously was.

[Aimi]

i admit i am nervous about this, i suck at tactics and the like.

You'll just have to make more trips to the Pokémon Center between fights. No biggie, just a bit of backtracking.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There's no world limitations I'm aware of to the effect of needing high intelligence in order to put on a robe. It makes similarly little sense that higher quality items require higher attributes -- as if anything, the better craftsmanship would mean these items are easier to use, not harder. Having systems like that in a game is okay if that's what floats the designer's boat, but let's not pretend the rules of these systems are anything but arbitrary and gamey.

Havn't you ever failed putting on your bathrobe after a night of heavy drinking? I tell you sir, those things are tricky.

[DarthLaxian]

You make some good points, and I share your concerns about how healing will be handled.  Unfortunately I have no information to give you.  Right now I'm of the opinion that the system will be easy to subvert, but that it may require constant backtracking to a safe zone or some other tedious method of abusing the game mechanics... I don't know what they are going to do, but I'm sure there will be a way around it.  It'll just waste our time though, without actually increasing the difficulty.  I hope that I'm proven wrong.

 

Hm...

 

Well, that's what I though when they first announced this "new" system (it's a very old one, but who cares? who cares that it was/is a dead system, that was dumped/cut from games because it does not make any sense, as it just artificially lengthens content by making us backtrack, while not adding anything meaningful to the game itself...I would have loved for them to only have it for high difficulty, but no, they wanted this kind of old fashioned system accross the board...hell, that reminds me of old shooters, where you had to look for health-kits because you didn't regenerate and once you were down in health even the lowest of the low of enemies could kill you...tedious...even more if there's no good saving system (they have a good one, do they? - still tedious to save every 5 minutes

 

greetings LAX

[DarthLaxian]

You'll just have to make more trips to the Pokémon Center between fights. No biggie, just a bit of backtracking.

 

It is a biggy, if you have to spend 1/3 of the time to go back and stock up on HP-Potions (if you can't even finish a long quest-chain because you constantly lose HP...what an immersion killer!)

 

greetings LAX

[tmp7704]

Cherry picking a magical item that has no real world analogue does not disprove the idea that attributes such as strength, speed, and agility determine how effectively a person can wield weapons and their movement speed while wearing heavy metal suits in the real world.  I mean honestly... using magical, enchanted robes as the example to disprove me?  Ok.

I think pointing out that at least some situations have no real world equivalents disproves the idea these restrictions are modeled after real world pretty well, actually, tyvm

But you know, it makes as little sense that clothing made of leather (and only these) require things like dexterity/cunning. And even seemingly logical "strength to wear plate" becomes as questionable once you realize a full suit of plate armour weights ~15-25kg i.e. considerably less than equipment carried by modern soldiers.

And if I bring up the act of equipping it more than the 'effective use', it is because in the games these two are treated largely as one and the same. And because arguing that having attributes as way to limit effective use is 'logical and reasonable' doesn't actually do anything to address the complaint having these attributes limit also ability to equip the items... isn't logical and reasonable in any way. You are defending taste of oranges when people are complaining about shitty apples, so to speak.

[Lenimph]

Outside of multiplayer, I don't recall ever seeing a developer care about the player using actual game hacks or elaborate methods to bypass the AI or mechanics.

In Tomb Raider, I've won fights by standing in a spot that forces the enemies to pop directly in my view one-by-one so I can easily head shot them.

Well if given the opportunity I think anyone in Lara's situation would do that. Camping is a valid tactic...