31 réponses à ce sujet

[gottaloveme]

Imagine that a group of your old companions got together to come up with a workable plan to slowly bring the Circle out from under the Chantry's big fat thumb. What would your workable plan be?

 

Rules governing the behaviour of templars as regards physical and sexual abuse. No more being kicked in the head as a wake up call.

No more Ser Alrik.

 

Allow people to visit family and loved ones within the tower and allow older mages to try and re-establish contact with estranged family members. 

 

I would want this family visitation to soon work the other way and allow mages time to go home. It would be good for them to remember they are people first and mages second. Good also for the locals to learn.

 

Eventually I would have smaller Circle day schools set up for mages to learn all their magey stuff and learn things like geography and history etc at the village school.

 

There would also have to be lots of paragraph this on page that of section n of chapter whatever governing uses of magic in society as opposed to standard weapons such as daggers, swords etc.

 

This is it then - vague because I want to know what others think.

[sylvanaerie]

Circles are also to protect mages from ignorant people outside the Circle.  The only workable solution would be to change the hearts and minds of the average Thedasian.  Until that is done, nothing else is going to free the mages.

[caradoc2000]

I prefer the Tevinter model where there is no Chantry oppression of mages, and spellcasting is just as normal as eating.

[Elhanan]

Personally, I like the DAO option to have the ruler grant independence to the Circle. Though it is not accepted by many in the Chantry, it is a legal precedence; one that can be defended by brave and honorable citizens.

[Icy Magebane]

Circles are also to protect mages from ignorant people outside the Circle.  The only workable solution would be to change the hearts and minds of the average Thedasian.  Until that is done, nothing else is going to free the mages.

I think this is the real problem... Templars and priests don't just appear out of thin air.  They're born and raised like anybody else, and the average person in Thedas flat out hates or mistrusts mages.  It's no surprise that Templars often wind up becoming cruel towards mages, or at the very least, apathetic to their problems...  even if you removed the Chantry from the equation, whoever replaced them would probably also hate or mistrust mages.

[gottaloveme]

I do understand that - generation after generation born into the chantry's pov. Having said that what would be the best way to reintegrate the mages into society? The Tevinter model is probably not the best to inspire relaxation of circle domination over mages.

 

I can't remember if any other class of warden can ask for mage freedom - but if asked and granted you can't just let them loose. It would be chaos and massacres galore.

[Icy Magebane]

My ideal plan would be to revamp the Circle system from top to bottom.

 

Instead of using it as a permanent residence for mages, it would be a training center.  A mandatory training center, but a temporary one.  I'm in favor of requiring all known mages to train and eventually undergo testing at the Circle... I think the Harrowing is fine in spite of being dangerous, but at the very least the mage should be told in advance what they'll be facing.  It would be voluntary, but they can't leave the Circle until they pass it.  The training that I mentioned would include more than lessons in spellcasting.  The primary focus would be learning to recognize demons in the Fade and how to resist their influence.  After all, the biggest problem with mages is the potential to become abominations, not the possibility that they may choose to abuse their power... anyone with weapons can threaten the peace, but if a mage becomes possessed, their will is overwritten by that of a hostile demonic force.

 

So... what happens once all of this is done?  Well, whenever the mage proves that they are ready, they are free to integrate back into society.  The conditions are that the Circle keeps a phylactery to track them down if they need to, and the mage must agree to monthly (maybe every other month) visits by local authorities to make sure they still live in the area.  They aren't allowed to move to a new city without first informing the Circle, but they are not in any way restricted from moving.  This is merely a way for the authorities to know the general location of every mage and the concentration of mages in each city, so that law enforcement can be ready to deal with any issues that may arise.

 

Wait, law enforcement?  Who's in charge of all this???  IMO, the Templar skills are too valuable to be lost to the world, regardless of their Order's reputation.  Assuming that such a system is agreed upon, I'd have these skills passed on to special agents within the city guard.  This group would be mainly responsible for dealing with whatever threats mages pose, conducting monthly inspections to make sure that a mage hasn't moved without notifying the Circle, and hunting down rogue mages using phylacteries.  They would be very similar to the Templars, but they would be strictly reactionary and would have no intrinsic authority over mages.  Furthermore, I think that mages should be allowed to join this order, as well as the city guard, if this were to have any hope of success.  Not only are mages capable of learning many spells that can nullify or counter magic, having mages within the city guard would do a lot to repair the misconception that they are untrustworthy as a rule.

 

Now, I realize that I'm only describing this because the mistrustful nature of Thedas's inhabitants has been mentioned, so how do the mages cope with that?  This one sounds a little tricky, because there are a lot of variables to account for.  The most I can say is that if mages slowly become more visible among the population (guardsmen), while simultaneously living in peace without their abilities being made public (normal citizens), normal folks should eventually get used to them.  Crime is a fact of life, so this doesn't guarantee that normal people will leave known mages alone... at that point it's probably up to the mage to use some of that power in self defense.  So long as mages are not punished for using magic to defend themselves, it should be treated like any other violent incident.  Acceptance of mages wouldn't happen overnight, but within a few generations I can see it becoming reality, especially if the Chantry isn't constantly in the background reinforcing the negative image that they've been using for centuries.  Since mages are currently under lock and key, all the common man has to go on are fuzzy memories of a local child accidentally starting a fire when their power first manifests and the Chantry's propagnda.  Once they have concrete examples of mages who have no wish to become tyrants, their prejudices should fade away.

 

I may have left out a step or two, but this post is pretty long so I'll leave it at that...

[dekarserverbot]

Circles are also to protect mages from ignorant people outside the Circle.  The only workable solution would be to change the hearts and minds of the average Thedasian.  Until that is done, nothing else is going to free the mages.

that was one of my teachers said about people like me... and i didn't like it.

returning to the topic it's easy to free the mages: destroy circles, kill templars and bingo! everyone free again. Sadly the game doesn't allow to go that way, destroying the circle means siding with templars and i don't like templars.

However my first run managed to let them a new option: ORZAMMAR! by sending Dagna to Slavedale she learnt magic and the epilogue said that Orzammar became a refuge for apostates, just because i don't want a thing with templars i saved the circle to prove them how wrong and unfair their ways are (and no, qunaris are not worse than them, qunaris enslave EVERYONE: childs are forced to study only, women are housewives who can't leave their farms, chappels or stores, and men have no choice but to fight... it's not pretty but at least is more fair). However it didn't work at all so i just had to do with Anders in Awakening and said "i don't like them"

[caradoc2000]

So... what happens once all of this is done?  Well, whenever the mage proves that they are ready, they are free to integrate back into society.  The conditions are that the Circle keeps a phylactery to track them down if they need to, and the mage must agree to monthly (maybe every other month) visits by local authorities to make sure they still live in the area.  They aren't allowed to move to a new city without first informing the Circle, but they are not in any way restricted from moving.  This is merely a way for the authorities to know the general location of every mage and the concentration of mages in each city, so that law enforcement can be ready to deal with any issues that may arise.

This sounds like they are on probation. Why would they have to prove anything? You don't have to be a mage to do evil, unspeakable things - King Arland or Ser Alrik to name a few.

 

And the funny thing about phylacteries is that the Chantry vehemently opposes and abhors blood magic, yet they resort to it themselves to keep the mages oppressed.

[theskymoves]

returning to the topic it's easy to free the mages: destroy circles, kill templars and bingo! everyone free again. Sadly the game doesn't allow to go that way, destroying the circle means siding with templars and i don't like templars.

Since the Circles o' Magi are under the aegis of the Chantry, if you destroy circles and slaughter all the templars (seriously... what is it with DAO fans and this "kill XXX" as the answer to everything?), what prevents the Chantry from just establishing more Circles and training more templars? 

[Mike3207]

Since the Circles o' Magi are under the aegis of the Chantry, if you destroy circles and slaughter all the templars (seriously... what is it with DAO fans and this "kill XXX" as the answer to everything?), what prevents the Chantry from just establishing more Circles and training more templars? 

Killing all the Templars is a half measure, you'd really have to destroy the entire Chantry or something close if you go that route.

 

I don't like it, I hope Leliana and her allies can find a peaceful solution before things go that far, but unless something drastic changes things, it really will require the  near total destruction of the Chantry for any workable plan of freeing the mages to come about.

[dekarserverbot]

(seriously... what is it with DAO fans and this "kill XXX" as the answer to everything?)

not exclusive to DAO fans, everyone else does... even animals.

Since the Circles o' Magi are under the aegis of the Chantry, if you destroy circles and slaughter all the templars, what prevents the Chantry from just establishing more Circles and training more templars?

nothing, absolutely nothing. The only option would be going into a prohibition of endoctrination. Applying this in real life would be destroying the entire forced education system. But at least the fear of "if i become templar i'm dead" will be awesome

[theskymoves]

not exclusive to DAO fans, everyone else does... even animals.


nothing, absolutely nothing. The only option would be going into a prohibition of endoctrination. Applying this in real life would be destroying the entire forced education system. But at least the fear of "if i become templar i'm dead" will be awesome

 

                    

[gottaloveme]

We aren't trying to kill anyone here. We aren't going to open the door to the circle and cry 'your'e free!'. That would only give us herds of wild mages roaming the bannorn and getting into the crops.

 

We won't get the chantry fingers out of this particular pie and templars and circle will always be there, but their functions can evolve. This is also a plan that could take many years to bring to fruition.

[Mike3207]

If giving peace a chance had worked we wouldn't have had the Mage/Templar War.

 

Both sides are going to have to get sick of the bloodshed before a peaceful solution can work.As for a peaceful solution, it's got to take both the Chantry/Templars out of the solution. There's no way the mages are ever going to trust either enough to give them control again.

[sylvanaerie]

that was one of my teachers said about people like me... and i didn't like it.

returning to the topic it's easy to free the mages: destroy circles, kill templars and bingo! everyone free again. Sadly the game doesn't allow to go that way, destroying the circle means siding with templars and i don't like templars.

However my first run managed to let them a new option: ORZAMMAR! by sending Dagna to Slavedale she learnt magic and the epilogue said that Orzammar became a refuge for apostates, just because i don't want a thing with templars i saved the circle to prove them how wrong and unfair their ways are (and no, qunaris are not worse than them, qunaris enslave EVERYONE: childs are forced to study only, women are housewives who can't leave their farms, chappels or stores, and men have no choice but to fight... it's not pretty but at least is more fair). However it didn't work at all so i just had to do with Anders in Awakening and said "i don't like them"

 

Yea, that worked out really well for you didn't it?  Because the solution isn't as easy as "Kill all the templars, blow up the chantries and tear down the Circles".  If it were, Anders' little stunt in Act 3 would be a lot more effective than it was.  But the mages still aren't truly free are they?  They are still hunted and harassed.  For the past 1000 years the Chantry has had a grip on the hearts and minds of the average citizens, who view mages as a threat (and in some cases for good reason--Connor is a classic example).  Does this mean you also advocate murdering every citizen in Thedas?

 

The only real solution, you may not like it, but that's how it is, is changing how people view mages.  It will probably take a lot of death, on both sides of the issue.  And a lot of innocent people will die.  Change never comes peacefully or without a lot of sacrifice.  I foresee it will take years, maybe as many as it took to oppress the mages, but the instant gratification of 'kill 'em all' ain't gonna cut it.

[Icy Magebane]

This sounds like they are on probation. Why would they have to prove anything? You don't have to be a mage to do evil, unspeakable things - King Arland or Ser Alrik to name a few.

 

And the funny thing about phylacteries is that the Chantry vehemently opposes and abhors blood magic, yet they resort to it themselves to keep the mages oppressed.

I think that it's better if law enforcement agents know the general location of all mages at all times because of the risk that they may become abominations.  By chance or choice, the possibility is always there.  If mages are left completely unaccounted for, then the city guard will have a harder time anticipating magic threats.  I think it's a fair compromise considering the fact that they are allowed to move whenever and wherever they wish, so long as they don't disappear off the grid.

 

Whatever issue you have with blood magic isn't relevant to what I'm proposing.  I already removed the Chantry from the equation.

[caradoc2000]

I think that it's better if law enforcement agents know the general location of all mages at all times because of the risk that they may become abominations.  By chance or choice, the possibility is always there.

Sounds like NSA.
 

If mages are left completely unaccounted for, then the city guard will have a harder time anticipating magic threats.  I think it's a fair compromise considering the fact that they are allowed to move whenever and wherever they wish, so long as they don't disappear off the grid.

If you can gut me and my fellow muggles like a fish with a thought, who am I to say that it is a fair compromise to lock you up. To paraphrase Javik:
"The strong grow stronger by dominating the weak"

I already removed the Chantry from the equation.

"So did we"
- Magisterium of Tevinter

[Ulnarv]

Perhaps it'd be a good idea to split up the circles into smaller ones, say along the lines of the fraternities? 

[Icy Magebane]

Sounds like NSA.
 

If you can gut me and my fellow muggles like a fish with a thought, who am I to say that it is a fair compromise to lock you up. To paraphrase Javik:
"The strong grow stronger by dominating the weak"

"So did we"
- Magisterium of Tevinter

 

Right... wake me up when you have a real case and not just empty rhetoric and quotes that sound edgy.  Unlimited freedom for mages is a pipe dream until you can guaranteed that there is no risk of abominations threatening the population.  My solution is more than fair and provides mages with more freedom and social equality than they've had in a millennium.  But honestly, if this is the best you can come up with, then I'm wasting my time by even debating this with you.

[Mike3207]

IM-Anytime a group of people or persons knows the exact location of a subclass of people like the mages or others, it's inevitable that someone will use that to come up with a Final Solution like the Japanese internment camps or the Jewish concentration camps. I don't think anyone wants to go down that road.

 

I think it's a bad idea and I'll leave it at that...

Modifié par Mike3207, 05 août 2014 - 05:32 .

[Icy Magebane]

IM-Anytime a group of people or persons knows the exact location of a subclass of people like the mages or others, it's inevitable that someone will use that to come up with a Final Solution like the Japanese internment camps or the Jewish concentration camps. I don't think anyone wants to go down that road.

Actually it isn't like that at all because neither of those groups is at risk of becoming... you guessed it...  abominations.  How about we address that point?  I'm open to suggestions... well, reasonable ones that don't include leaving the city guard totally in the dark.  Abominations cause incredible amounts of destruction and can pop up without warning.  If the mages are allowed to roam freely among the population, it's only fair that the city guard knows they're out there so they can be prepared to respond quickly if something goes wrong.

 

Was I somehow unclear when I said that mages under this system wouldn't need permission to move, they just need to let the city guard know when and where they're going?  How is that any more intrusive than needing a state ID, drivers license, or gun permit?

 

edit:  I'm not even against mages joining the city guard and policing their own, but that still isn't good enough?  Incredible...

[caradoc2000]

Unlimited freedom for mages is a pipe dream until you can guaranteed that there is no risk of abominations threatening the population.

As I said, you don't have to be a mage to threaten the population, you don't even have to be a mage to become an abomination as seen in Enemies Among Us.

I am not questioning your plan which isn't bad per se. I am wondering why the mages submit to being treated like this. Even Merrill asks why the mages are treated like lepers, instead of being cherished like the Dalish do.

[Icy Magebane]

As I said, you don't have to be a mage to threaten the population, you don't even have to be a mage to become an abomination as seen in Enemies Among Us.

You are ignoring the fact that these events were only made possible due to the direct intervention of a group of disgruntled, demon summoning blood mages.  Unless specific types of magic are involved, non-mages cannot become abominations.  This is one of the cornerstones of the lore.

 

http://dragonage.wik...onic_Possession

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Abomination

 

Here is an excerpt from the second page:  "The spirits can also possess almost any creature or object, including plants and rocks, however, these hosts cannot become abominations in the true sense, as the spirits gain no additional powers through possession."