48 réponses à ce sujet

[Spicen]

The two countries wud live happily ever after. The End.
And ofcourse cailan would have many children

[TEWR]

Well put, it addresses the issue nicely.

 

Yes, as most people have stated, Ferelden would be in a disadvantage. I feel that another war with Orlais and Ferelden is inevitable, so they only hope Ferelden would have of getting the advantage over Orlais would be establishing relations with Nevarra, Orlais' enemy. A peace bewteen Orlais and Ferelden would most likely have delayed any conflict between the nations, so it would give the perfect opportunity to subtlety play Nerra against Orlais and potentially even make a coalition and take down Orlais.

 

Thank you for the compliment, my friend.

 

As for Nevarra and Ferelden alliance, couldn't agree more. Bonus points if one can get the Free Marches, or at the very least Starkhaven and Kirkwall, on their side. Kirkwall similarly chafed under Orlesian rule and Starkhaven would possibly come with Kirkwall but also serves important economic interests I would think.

[The Hierophant]

It'll most likely lead to civil war in Ferelden if Loghain's still alive. After Loghain's dead, Celene would setup Cailan to die from an alleged accident during a hunting trip, and then Ferelden would be screwed after she inherits the throne.

[TheSage]

it could work If they play their cards right or it could be one of celene's plots. She marries caillian and arranges an *accident* and after he dies she is the *heir* and she takes over ferelden

People forget that she's a player of the game

[The Baconer]

She marries caillian and arranges an *accident* and after he dies she is the *heir* and she takes over ferelden

 

No, she isn't.

[TheSage]

No, she isn't.

Atleast explain not just *no* like a d.umb a.ss

Cailian doesnt have any sona or daughters as far as i know. If celene plays her cards well she could take over. Sure there could be a civil war but i think she can handle it .

[Iakus]

it could work If they play their cards right or it could be one of celene's plots. She marries caillian and arranges an *accident* and after he dies she is the *heir* and she takes over ferelden

People forget that she's a player of the game

She may be a player of the Game, but the people of Ferelden would never tolerate that.  Hell, even if it was a legitimate accident, they'd never go back to being ruled by Orlais

 

At best, such an act would be a pretense for an invasion, and there'd be a whole new war to fight.  

 

Gaspard would love it. 

[The Baconer]

Atleast explain not just *no* like a d.umb a.ss

 

no.

[lynroy]

Dat necro.

[TheSage]

no.

Thank you for proving my theory

She may be a player of the Game, but the people of Ferelden would never tolerate that. Hell, even if it was a legitimate accident, they'd never go back to being ruled by Orlais

At best, such an act would be a pretense for an invasion, and there'd be a whole new war to fight.

Gaspard would love it.

Good points . i agree

[rolson00]

i reckon it would be one hell of a s**t storm don't forget the couslands rebelled against the Orlesians and would have followed logain into battle to oust the "traitor king, Logian was only veiwed a traitor in DA:O for acting without cause the king betraying fereldan to marry an Orlesian would give him perfect cause.

[Nerevar-as]

Celene could have a child with Cailan before disposing of him if she so wished (pretty sure she can play the idiot like a fiddle if not), and be the rightful regent to Ferelden without the nobility having moral authority to protest. One problem with BW's allergy to children is that both Ferelden ans Orlais rulers are running out of time to produce a legitimate heir to the thrones. The way things are Morrigan's son is going to be the best contender for the Ferelden throne if he's Alistair's or Cousland's.

[Sifr]

No, she isn't.

 

But wasn't this the entire pretext for Anora remaining Queen after Cailan's death?

 

Anora expected to remain in power in Origins based on the flimsy argument that she was a better ruler for the nation than Alistair - who despite his illegitimacy was a blood relative to Cailan and Maric - based solely on her marriage to Cailan and that her father is a powerful Teyrn, ignoring that her father was partially responsible for why her husband is dead to begin with.

 

If Celene had married Cailan, I don't see why she couldn't use that as an excuse to claim the throne of Ferelden for herself upon his death. Someone like Celene would attempt to use such a marriage to ingratiate herself to the Fereldan people and the bannorn, so in the tragic event of her husband's death, she could attempt to charm the Landsmeet to support her, in the same way she had won over Orlais' Council of Heralds in her bid for Empress.

 

Even Gaspard, for all his dislike of Fereldans and of the Game, wouldn't be shy from trying to pulling that same trick in a world-state where he and Anora rule as leaders of their respective nations. Although I'd suspect that if he married Anora and she died, rather than attempt to win the bannorn over, he'd try to have them killed off while he launched a full-scale invasion.

[Master Warder Z_]

Reaper strategy? Kill their leadership and while they are disorganized and weak crush them?

Smart.

[Boost32]

Atleast explain not just *no* like a d.umb a.ss
Cailian doesnt have any sona or daughters as far as i know. If celene plays her cards well she could take over. Sure there could be a civil war but i think she can handle it .

Because Ferelden is not a hereditary monarch, it is a elective monarchy.
If Cailan died the Landsmeet would be gathered to elect a new ruler, while Celene could win there is no guarantee it would happen, specially if the Couslands and the Mac Tyrs were alive.

[Dai Grepher]

I thought about this, but my ideas extended only to Anora and my Cousland. I suspect Cailan would be overthrown by the bannorn, which would call a Landsmeet to elect a new ruler. If Bryce is still alive, then he would be elected. Or Bryce might support Anora. Cailan would lose legitimacy and Celene would have no use for him then. In the event that most banns backed Cailan, he would divorce Anora and my Cousland would be there to play the clean-up man. Cailan would become Emperor of Orlais but Celene would still be the one calling the shots. It would be the same setup he had with Anora, except Celene would actually have power of her own. Plus, Cailan would get to bang Celene AND have tail on the side, as is Orlesian custom. So I could see Cailan totally loving that worldstate. I don't think Celene would do anything to Cailan. I think she would be too busy keeping Gaspard in line. He would work to overthrow her just like before.

[rolson00]

Celene could have a child with Cailan before disposing of him if she so wished (pretty sure she can play the idiot like a fiddle if not), and be the rightful regent to Ferelden without the nobility having moral authority to protest. One problem with BW's allergy to children is that both Ferelden ans Orlais rulers are running out of time to produce a legitimate heir to the thrones. The way things are Morrigan's son is going to be the best contender for the Ferelden throne if he's Alistair's or Cousland's.

the fereldan nobles wouldn't stand for the empress they would rebel just like they did before even with the kings child they would have likly looked to anora and all she would have had to do was then marry a cousland to earn the common folks acceptance. 

[The Baconer]

But wasn't this the entire pretext for Anora remaining Queen after Cailan's death?

 

Anora expected to remain in power in Origins based on the flimsy argument that she was a better ruler for the nation than Alistair - who despite his illegitimacy was a blood relative to Cailan and Maric - based solely on her marriage to Cailan and that her father is a powerful Teyrn, ignoring that her father was partially responsible for why her husband is dead to begin with.

 

If Celene had married Cailan, I don't see why she couldn't use that as an excuse to claim the throne of Ferelden for herself upon his death. Someone like Celene would attempt to use such a marriage to ingratiate herself to the Fereldan people and the bannorn, so in the tragic event of her husband's death, she could attempt to charm the Landsmeet to support her, in the same way she had won over Orlais' Council of Heralds in her bid for Empress.

 

Even Gaspard, for all his dislike of Fereldans and of the Game, wouldn't be shy from trying to pulling that same trick in a world-state where he and Anora rule as leaders of their respective nations. Although I'd suspect that if he married Anora and she died, rather than attempt to win the bannorn over, he'd try to have them killed off while he launched a full-scale invasion.

 

She's not going to charm anyone in this event. Making Cailan disappear not only gives ammo to the Orlesian haters, but also alienates the people who were in support of the marriage, or at least not vehemently opposed to it. Nobody is going to be fooled by a 'hunting accident' or whatever else they might come up with. As Dai Grepher said, I can't see Celene trying to do anything like that to Cailan, because it's a bad play. The real game is ensuring their heir receives all the power.

[Nerevar-as]

Because Ferelden is not a hereditary monarch, it is a elective monarchy.
If Cailan died the Landsmeet would be gathered to elect a new ruler, while Celene could win there is no guarantee it would happen, specially if the Couslands and the Mac Tyrs were alive.

For an elective monarchy, all rightful kings are direct descendants of Calenhad's line, even after some terrible ones such as the one who kicked thr GW out. How much power they wield comes from the nobility, but changing rulers without legal reason seems more complicated. Landsmeet in DAO only goes that well because Loghain is so paranoid he's alienated lots of nobles. Even then, best solution seemed to be Alistair marrying Anora, both changing and keeping the status quo of the throne. Really liked their chemistry in Redcliff in DAI too, they either rehearsed it on their way there or they think very much alike.

[Boost32]

For an elective monarchy, all rightful kings are direct descendants of Calenhad's line, even after some terrible ones such as the one who kicked thr GW out. How much power they wield comes from the nobility, but changing rulers without legal reason seems more complicated. Landsmeet in DAO only goes that well because Loghain is so paranoid he's alienated lots of nobles. Even then, best solution seemed to be Alistair marrying Anora, both changing and keeping the status quo of the throne. Really liked their chemistry in Redcliff in DAI too, they either rehearsed it on their way there or they think very much alike.

Yes they were all Theirin, still they were elected they didn't inherited the throne.
And Anora + Cousland is way better.

[Gervaise]

Cailan barely got the Landsmeet to support him when he became king and this was likely swayed in his favour by the fact that he had the support of Loghain.   The occupation by the Orlesians and the atrocities they performed at that time are still too recent for anyone, bar Eamon and possibly the Couslands (if what Howe said was true) to be in favour of the match.   There would be much sympathy for Anora, particularly considering most people are aware of who was actually running the country.   

 

There are also people, like the girl in the market place, who fled to Ferelden to get away from Orlesian nobility and in particular the Chevaliers.    In Masked Empire their atrocities seemed confined to elves.   In Origins we were given a far different picture, with Chevaliers able to rape any girl they chose and the nobility ruling by "Divine Right".    The Orlesian nobility look upon Fereldens with contempt and the latter know it.      

 

As usual, Celene was trying to be clever and annex Orlais by diplomatic means but I doubt the nobility who backed Gaspard would have been content with that.       Even if she was able to hold them back, once there was an heir in place, her days might well be numbered and the Orlesians would be only too happy to use the child's claim on the throne of Ferelden to occupy with military forces.    Personally I doubt it would ever have got that far.   The moment the possible betrothal became known, Cailan would have been persuaded to abandon the idea or face the consequences.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

It's an interesting question, one I have mulled over myself as well.  But there are mistakes in this thread due to the fact that most people commenting on it are rather ignorant of the feudal rights of succession established by royal and imperial marriage.

 

Marrying into royalty does not make one the ruler or head of state.  Marrying a ruling King makes one a Queen (Queen-Consort) by title, but does not extend the line of succession or rulership to you.  Conversely, marrying a ruling Queen Regnant makes you a Prince-Consort, not a King, and again no lines of actual rulership extend to you. 

 

In the event of children and the passing of the reigning monarch, the surviving spouse could attempt to assume temporary control of the realm as a Queen/Empress Dowager (or King Regent?  If such a title exists?).  Generally speaking, if there is a strong enough backing for the child to be crowned, usually the court will push for such a solution with a strong Regent/Dowager to guard the child-ruler.  Again, the spouse-consort is usually not directly involved in the lines of succession.

 

In the event of Orlais and Ferelden establishing an alliance of royal and imperial marriage, it could go one of two ways.  Some might see this as a loss for Ferelden, being brought back into close relations with Orlais.  But from a viewpoint of heraldic and sovereign-crown traditions, it would be more likely to seen as Ferelden having 'come into its own', now as a sovereign crown-partner. 

 

Celene would maintain her reign over Orlais, and Cailan would have continued to maintain reign over Ferelden.  The issue of royal and imperial children then comes into play, which was the sole reason Cailan even entertained the thought of the proposed marriage, he needed a legacy of heirs, as did Celene.  Celene was 26 years of Age during the Fifth Blight, and Cailan was 25.  The window for issuance of a new bloodline of Imperial ambitions would have been largely open and available for several years still.  The question then becomes whether or not Thedas is dominated by the real-life practice of primogeniture (where only the eldest male inherits), like real-world Europe was.

 

Since many references are made to women in positions of power in Thedas, and Bioware has a history of making more equitable and sexually-egalitarian game-settings, it could be likely that primogeniture simply isn't a dominant practice here in Thedas, and Celene's existence seems to point towards this being true.  This would likely lead to tradition pointing towards the eldest of a given line being their expected heir, like Gaspard based his claim upon.  However the influence of powerful court elements like the Council of Heralds and the Landsmeet would seem to imply that the feudal chain has a large part to play in the question of inheritance and rulership.

 

The likeliest outcome assuming both Celene and Cailan were able to produce children is that their children would be granted holding-specific titles and princedoms as they came of age, such as Prince of Wales (Prince of Denerim perhaps?  Princess of Val Royeux?).  Since child-mortality and acts of the Maker might affect the succession prior to a child reaching the age of majority, likely none of these titles would be directly linked to a traditional line of succession, but would definitely establish the likeliest contenders for the throne, with certain prestige elements possibly attached to these holdings.  Usually real-life realms in these situations fostered and raised their children in the allied region, to create goodwill and a sense of adopted 'hometown syndrome', like the feelings of affection for Bonny Prince Charlie.

 

If we presume the Celene married Cailan prior to the events of Origins and immediately became pregnant, thus delivered of a single heir right after the Fifth Blight (Dragon 9:31), then such a Prince/Princess would presumably be ten years of age during the events of the Inquisition (Dragon 9:41).  Not quite old enough to take the throne on their own, but definitely within the established lines of succession, and likely a declared heir to the throne of both Orlais and Ferelden.  As I mentioned above, it's entirely likely there would be a fierce sense of affection and loyalty to that child from Ferelden subjects, and possibly overriding the older rivalries within a generation's time.  This would have left Corypheus targeting both Celene and her child, but might have directly involved the military forces of both realms, a slight tilt to the scales of power that might have further influenced how events might have unfolded.

 

However, there might still be the question of resistance and pretenders to the throne of both realms as well.  Notably Gaspard and Loghain would still have some claims to press on behalf of their own legitimacy.  It's difficult to consider though whether either one might have had the resources and forces to bring to bear against an united crown.  Strange bedfellowships aside, neither Gaspard or Loghain would be likely to work with each other given their personal views and aims would be antithetical to each other.  This means a protracted but inevitable struggle of two smaller isolated claimants working against a larger, more powerful, and generally more accepted and legitimate power.  In the end, you would likely still have Celene and her children triumphant. 

 

If Corypheus becomes part of the three-way equation, then he likely pursues Gaspard as a pawn much as he did in Inquisition, using Gaspard's sister Florianne as his agent-provocateur.  Against Loghan he would likely tempt him with the promise of a Ferelden ascendent over Orlais.  Loghain seemed to have little real regard for the dangers of the Blight or Darkspawn, so he likely would have overestimated his own prowess and ability to deal with Corypheus as an equal partner, rather than be circumspect and being wary about being manipulated.  Both men are men of action, believing their deeds and personal valor would overcome all obstacles, and in the end they would make their mark upon the world through individual accomplishment. 

 

The Inquisition would probably unfold much as it did, but with the addition of open military operations in Ferelden directly, probably much in the same manner as Adamant Fortress.  Once stability was achieved, then the forces brought to bear against Corypheus would be much greater than in the canon events, as Ferelden largely sat out the greater events. 

 

The one thing that isn't largely a major event but I think would have been fascinating to observe is watching this child of Celene grow up alongside Kieran, being of an similar age and possibly playmates once Morrigan joined Celene in Val Royeux.  I have this idea of these two scamps having marvelous adventures and being the crux of a future grand epic!  :-)

[TK514]

I think you underestimate Loghain's ability to rally Ferelden troops to his banner.  He suffered the problems of a Civil War when he was trying to claim Ferelden's throne against the Landsmeet, but I suspect the Bannorn would gladly side with him over Orlais and a puppet claimant controlled from Val Royeaux.  Particularly as the child would have no Ferelden influence in their life with the passing of Cailan.  It's even possible the rallying cry could be reclaiming the child to be raised in Ferelden as a Theirin, either by Anora or Eamon.

 

As for Gaspard, he was already in a position to start a Civil War in Orlais, and I see no reason to think that would change.  He'd still have the troops to challenge Celene and any children, though I question if he would still have the motive.  It is possible he would side with the throne simply for the pretext of bringing Ferelden fully under the control of Orlais again without the compromise of ruling two realms.  This would also allow him to battle harden his troops, giving them experience for any future adventurism, either against Celene or Nevarra, on his part.

 

IF, however, he did take the opportunity to vie for the throne against Celene and her children, the 'loyal' faction would find itself fighting a two front war against two of the finest military minds of the age.  I'm not sure even Briala's elves would be able to cause enough distraction to save that situation.

[rolson00]

It would be interesting to have the opinion of a bioware writer on this, due to the alternate story for DA:O that could have been, heck they could even use the the planned marriage between Celene and Cailian as a cause for ferelden to invade later on. I think King Alistar would not be able to calm down the Fereldan nobles screams for blood.