164 réponses à ce sujet

[Vumba the Wild Elf]

Pictured: Blacks with natural blonde hair - the blond Melanesians of the Solomon Islands, where they make up ~25% of the population.

 

EDIT: The gene responsible for their blond hair is completely separate to the one that can give Indo-Europeans blond hair.



Pictured: Gary Dourdan, African-American actor of CSI fame with natural blue/grey eyes.

 

Is it really so ridiculous to have a black character with grey eyes?  Or blond hair?

 

 

Pretty sure Vivienne's eyes are brown. Her character profile shows her eyes as being brown.

 

 

 

Black people can have blue eyes. In fact I think it looks better on them than anyone else. It's just rare for them to have them but it's still possible. Doesn't make them any less black...

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

Well there are black people with blond hair. The melanesian people naturally have blond hair. So I don't think he has issues for suggesting that.

 

But people should just leave Vivienne's appearance alone. She's fine as she is. I don't even know why there's even controversy.

 

 

I think Vivi's eyes are fine either way. If her eyes are gray or blue I hope it stays, it looks striking. I'm disappointed that they gave her a boring buzz cut instead of a cool hairstyle underneath the horns, but a different eye color would make her look more interesting/unique to me. I'm not sure why there's a controversy though, black people have a variety of eye colors.

How many black people do you see who look like that?

 

These are less than 10-5 percent of the "black" population, and heck, they are not even black, but blacks and others use them as an excuse to exercise their unnatural habit. 

 

African descendant people are very different from other humans, there's nothing wrong with that, however blacks and some others think there is, and learn not to love their own natural appearance. That crap must stop.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Her eyes in that picture is purple (unless you are colorblind)

[Icy Magebane]

Pictured: Blacks with natural blonde hair - the blond Melanesians of the Solomon Islands, where they make up ~25% of the population.

 

EDIT: The gene responsible for their blond hair is completely separate to the one that can give Indo-Europeans blond hair.
 

You learn something new every day... very interesting.

 

As for Vivienne... I don't mind if she has something other than brown eyes.  On the other hand, in every game with character creation, I give my characters abnormal eye colors anyway, like yellow, red, violet, or white.  So maybe I'm not the one to ask... lol...

[Vumba the Wild Elf]

You learn something new every day... very interesting.

 

As for Vivienne... I don't mind if she has something other than brown eyes.  On the other hand, in every game with character creation, I give my characters abnormal eye colors anyway, like yellow, red, violet, or white.  So maybe I'm not the one to ask... lol...

They are not negroid, they ain't black. They are caucasian like the Australian aboriginals.

[JJDXB]

How many black people do you see who look like that?

 

These are less than 10 percent of the black population, and but blacks and others use them as an excuse to exercise their unnatural habit. 

 

African descendant people are very different from other humans, there's nothing wrong with that, however blacks and others think there is, and learn not to love their own natural appearance.

 

It's irrelevant that they are rare.  The point is that they exist, so there's a possibility that they'll be born with blue eyes.

 

And many of those of european descent don't like how pale they are and choose to tan.  It's their body.  If they don't like it, they can do with it what they can (so long as it's not life-threatening, and if it is I'd urge them to reconsider).  The only problems I see here is that you want to pigeon hole people into what you consider acceptable looks and physical appearances based on an accident of birth and that your tone -"they should learn to love their body" - suggests you feel that they're helpless and need protection from others from the white man and his ways.  They aren't.  They're regular people like the rest of us and can do what they wish.  I understand that you dislike racism, but as far as I'm concerned you only serve to further it by wanting to keep 'the races' (I hate that concept so much) apart.

 

They are not black, they are like the Australian aboriginals. They are Caucasian.

If we're going to use this antiquated and inherently ridiculous and racist system of classification, no they are not.  They are 'Negroids', of which Australoid (which doesn't even apply to the melanesians) is a subcategory.  Or, we could stop classifying people on their facial bone structure as if it's of any real importance out of identification and refer to everyone first and foremost as human beings with as much right as the next person to modify their body.

 

EDIT: I understand that you'd be concerned if they made Vivienne blonde as you'd perceive that as BioWare 'de-blacking' them.  I can understand that.  However, it's plain as day to me and most others that she is black and that BioWare isn't racist.  They aren't 'de-blacking' her because black people like her exist.  This is the same argument as "this gay guy isn't gay enough" or "this woman isn't weak enough; they're making her strong and that threatens my masculinity" all of which I disapprove of because they all pigeon-hole these people into preconceived acceptable roles just as much as making them 'gay-acting' or 'strong-acting' does.  There's a whole spectrum of people who don't fit into society's perception as to how they should act.  And they make the world better for it.

[Sylvianus]

Here, the latest screenshot from the alpha build with Vivienne. She has definitely black or brown eyes. 

 

[Vumba the Wild Elf]

It's irrelevant that they are rare.  The point is that they exist, so there's a possibility that they'll be born with blue eyes.

 

And many of those of european descent don't like how pale they are and choose to tan.  It's their body.  If they don't like it, they can do with it what they can (so long as it's not life-threatening, and if it is I'd urge them to reconsider).  The only problems I see here is that you want to pigeon hole people into what you consider acceptable looks and physical appearances based on an accident of birth and that your tone -"they should learn to love their body" - suggests you feel that they're helpless and need protection from others from the white man and his ways.  They aren't.  They're regular people like the rest of us and can do what they wish.  I understand that you dislike racism, but as far as I'm concerned you only serve to further it by wanting to keep 'the races' (I hate that concept so much) apart.

 

If we're going to use this antiquated and inherently ridiculous and racist system of classification, no they are not.  They are 'Negroids', of which Australoid (which doesn't even apply to the melanesians) is a subcategory.  Or, we could stop classifying people on their facial bone structure as if it's of any real importance out of identification and refer to everyone first and foremost as human beings with as much right as the next person to modify their body.

 

EDIT: I understand that you'd be concerned if they made Vivienne blonde as you'd perceive that as BioWare 'de-blacking' them.  I can understand that.  However, it's plain as day to me and most others that she is black and that BioWare isn't racist.  They aren't 'de-blacking' her because black people like her exist.  This is the same argument as "this gay guy isn't gay enough" or "this woman isn't weak enough; they're making her strong and that threatens my masculinity" all of which I disapprove of because they all pigeon-hole these people into preconceived acceptable roles just as much as making them 'gay-acting' or 'strong-acting' does.  There's a whole spectrum of people who don't fit into society's perception as to how they should act.  And they make the world better for it.

It's relevant because scientifically, and in reality these Melanesians are a different breed, and they have their own gene pool. Genes blacks cannot ever produce unless mate with a Melanesian. They look more black than others, but are not. If you call them black because of their skin, why not call Indians black? Because of the hair, or because their culture doesn't have a lot of spears?

 

It's about respecting other's differences, as well as your own.

[Icy Magebane]

They are not negroid, they ain't black. They are caucasian like the Australian aboriginals.

Um... are we looking at the same kids?  They don't have any caucasian features.  Even their hair isn't straight, it's just golden brown...

[Neria Rose]

Here, the latest screenshot from the alpha build with Vivienne. She has definitely black or brown eyes. 

 

I hope they stay that way. I freely admit it would kind of feel like a kick in the pants if their first undeniably black female companion has an atypical eye color. 

[Ryzaki]

Yeah Vivi's brown eyes are lovely.

 

The blue/silver whatever ones were offputting to me.

[Vumba the Wild Elf]

Um... are we looking at the same kids?  They don't have any caucasian features.  Even their hair isn't straight, it's just golden brown...

They are like the Indians. They have their own different gene pool, completely different from those of direct African descent or anyone else. No matter how much anyone else tries to look like them naturally, they will not. Only if they actually mate with a Malaysian could their offspring carry the gene.

 

Anyways, why do people, even black people, want blacks to have blond hair, blue eyes, straight flowing hair, and light skin even though they know they can't? Why do some black women even bleach?

 

Think.

 

It's really effed up if you realized how effed up it is.

[JJDXB]

It's relevant because scientifically, and in reality these Melanesians are a different breed, and they have their own gene pool. Genes blacks cannot ever produce unless mate with a Melanesian. They look more black than others, but are not. If you call them black because of their skin, why not call Indians black? Because of the hair, or because their culture doesn't have a lot of spears?

 

It's about respecting other's differences, as well as your own.

 

Many Indians do call themselves black.  I don't because I consider skin colour irrelevant to who you are.  I only use black because I have to use something.

 

Yes, I do respect differences. Skin colour, however, is entirely superficial and should be wholly unimportant to how we treat people.  We cannot and should not treat people differently because of superificial differences, whether in law or in society.  That isn't free.  That isn't equal.  That is segregation.  A return to dark days when your social mobility, status and rights were hampered because you were born with the wrong skin colour.  You talk of us as if we were breeds of dog, that we should maintain our pedigree and that mixing is to be avoided.  Every single barrier we put up between people is another step closer to conflict and strife.  The "Us vs them" mentatility lies at the heart of just about every single war that has ever been started.  Every draconian law enacted.  Every age of human history where we have put down our fellow human being because they don't have the same skin colour, religion, culture, language, sex etc.  And you just want to add fuel to the fire.

 

They are like Indians. They have their own different gene pool, completely different from those of direct African descent or anyone else. No matter how much anyone else tries to look like them, they will never look like them naturally, only if they actually mate with a Malaysian.

 

Anyways, why do people want black people to have blond hair and blue eyes, straight flowing hair, and light skin? Why do black women bleach?

 

Think.

 

It's really effed up if you realized how effed up it is.

For the same reasons white people tan.  It's a sign of wealth, a way to be seen.  Don't you get it?  They aren't doing it to please their white overlords.  They're doing it because they're free to do it and have the money to do it.  They want to be noticed and feel good about themsevles, some of the most primal human urges.  You're also exagerrating the appeal amongst black people.  The day they all go blond and blue eyed I may agree with you, but while the numbers that choose to do this remain inconsequential.  In fact, even if this did happen, I bet you the reverse would happen.  In an attempt to get noticed, those with money would go the opposite way and darken themselves.
 

It's obvious to me you think you're fighting to protect the minorities.  But as a member of several minorities (sexual orientation and race) myself, I say you're doing the worst thing you could possibly do.  Your solutions to the problems we face as a species would have us fenced off from each other in our own little world based purely on what we were classified as on birth as opposed to who we choose to be.  You would take away these peoples right to choose.  This isn't even a solution.  We can and should celebrate our differences, because that's what makes us human and it's glorious, but we cannot cage ourselves by them nor allow them to drive us as a society and species apart.  I am a human being, first and foremost.  Then way afterwards comes my nationality, biracial, gay, short.

 

Now this is getting a little out of hand, so for the time being I will return to the discussion at hand.

It honestly doesn't matter what colour her eyes it.  She's a beautiful and strong human being worthy of respect either way.

[Icy Magebane]

They are like the Indians. They have their own different gene pool, completely different from those of direct African descent or anyone else. No matter how much anyone else tries to look like them naturally, they will not. Only if they actually mate with a Malaysian could their offspring carry the gene.

 

Anyways, why do people, even black people, want blacks to have blond hair, blue eyes, straight flowing hair, and light skin? Why do some black women even bleach?

 

Think.

 

It's really effed up if you realized how effed up it is.

You're reading too much into it.  Africa doesn't even exist on Thedas, yet you want to enforce that particular genetic standard upon a fictional race that resembles Melanesians as much as it resembles Africans?  You keep referring to hair color, but Vivienne doesn't have blonde hair, so I don't see how that's even an issue.  It was merely brought up in order to illustrate that there is variation among people who are traditionally recognized as "black."  I've never even heard of Melenesians before, but I can guarantee you that nobody will confuse them with ancestral Europeans.  You've been shown physical evidence of black people with naturally blonde hair and even eye colors other than brown, but refuse to accept them as such because they didn't fit into your racial ideal?  And I'm the one not thinking?

[Vumba the Wild Elf]

You're reading too much into it.  Africa doesn't even exist on Thedas, yet you want to enforce that particular genetic standard upon a fictional race that resembles Melanesians as much as it resembles Africans?  You keep referring to hair color, but Vivienne doesn't have blonde hair, so I don't see how that's even an issue.  It was merely brought up in order to illustrate that there is variation among people who are traditionally recognized as "black."  I've never even heard of Melenesians before, but I can guarantee you that nobody will confuse them with ancestral Europeans.  You've been shown physical evidence of black people with naturally blonde hair and even eye colors other than brown, but refuse to accept them as such because they didn't fit into your racial ideal?  And I'm the one not thinking?

Black people are people of direct African descent. Again, these people are not black.

 

My racial ideal?

Here's a genetic truth, Native Australians, and Indians are white, in fact, more whiter than Germans.

 

Lump black people with native Australians, Indians, pacific islanders, and other dark-skinned folk together and start calling them all black because they all look the same. What if they lump white people with Arabs, east Asians, native Americans and other pale folk and start calling them all white, because they all look the same?

[zambingo]

Socially pigmentation doesn't matter whether it's natural or cosmetic. Pigmentation has no bearing on ability natural or learned, unless perhaps we are discussing resistance to harmful UV.

Anyone that is in anyway concerned with how someone else chooses to look or is born looking has an issue.

The only time pigmentations are important to note is for legal, scientific and medical classification, identification and analysis.

[Rockpopple]

Ugh. Why is it that black people in fantasy is sure as hell guaranteed to make some people flip their lids.

 

Blue eyes or brown, Vivienne is gorgeous and I look forward to making that gorgeous woman mine. Of course I don't expect it to be easy, but I also know that black don't crack, so I expect it to be worth it.

[Icy Magebane]

@ Vumba the Wild Elf - The bottom line is that Vivienne has physical features that clearly make her look like a typical person of African descent (and even that is a very broad generalization...).  This might have been a valid complaint about Isabela, but in this case I just don't see it.  Whether her eyes are brown or a different color isn't a big deal to me.

 

Also, they are brown in this close-up, so how is any of this relevant?

 

 

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 04 août 2014 - 10:16 .

[mikeymoonshine]

*posts*

 

Black is more of a cultural term, it's certainly not a scientific classification so i have no idea where you are getting this idea from.

We don't classify people by their race because race does not exist from an evolutionary standpoint. The difference between a black person and a white person is next to nothing, it's just minor variations.

 

Saying someone is not black just because they are not of direct African decent is offensive. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Saying someone is not black just because they are not of direct African decent is offensive.

Since no one on Thedas is of African descent, that renders this entire discussion off-topic.

And I hope Vivienne has light eyes.

[Vumba the Wild Elf]

Black is more of a cultural term, it's certainly not a scientific classification so i have no idea where you are getting this idea from.

We don't classify people by their race because race does not exist from an evolutionary standpoint. The difference between a black person and a white person is next to nothing, it's just minor variations.

 

Saying someone is not black just because they are not of direct African decent is offensive. 

Black culture? That ghetto crap?

 

In North America, indoctrinated bs is what that is. It's not even a culture just an unproductive mentality dragging on. Something good only for entertainment and not to be taken seriously at all. It's so backwards, anybody can do it.

[mikeymoonshine]

Since no one on Thedas is of African descent, that renders this entire discussion off-topic.

And I hope Vivienne has light eyes.

 

Of course I was just pointing out mistakes in an argument, It had little to do with they discussion at hand.

 

I prefer the brown eyes myself though. 

[Akkos]

Her eyes are gray blue-ish.............

 

In some cutscenes of Vivienne in-game she had light clear eyes.

[Samahl]

Race is a social construct, but there is no denying that there are certain features common among certain groups of people. White people tend to have thinner lips and noses than black people. Monolids are typically found among Asian people. Black people tend to have kinky hair. Most people who have blue eyes are white.

The fact is, white European features are largely considered more attractive than African features. It's clear that Vivienne is meant to represent the latter, and I'd prefer she did so completely. Brown eyes are beautiful too.

[mikeymoonshine]

Culture? Indoctrinated bs is what that is.

 

Racial and ethnic classification is societal and not scientific so it does not have the kind of rules you are claiming it does. It's even has different criteria and meaning in different societies.

[mikeymoonshine]

Race is a social construct, but there is no denying that there are certain features common among certain groups of people. White people tend to have thinner lips and noses than black people. Monolids are typically found among Asian people. Black people tend to have kinky hair. Most people who have blue eyes are white.

The fact is, white European features are largely considered more attractive than African features. It's clear that Vivienne is meant to represent the latter, and I'd prefer she did so completely. Brown eyes are beautiful too.

 

I agree completely. It would be a shame to add more of a western look to her for no reason, it wouldn't be the end of the world but still a shame.