91 réponses à ce sujet

[chris2365]

I've been curious as to what they'll do when they take the multiplayer servers offline. It'll happen eventually, so I wonder whether they'll patch the game to instantly have people at 100% effectiveness. Because they'll have to expect that some people will buy the trilogy when the 4th comes out.

 

You can't really do that either, because if people want to get the low EMS endings then they can't. On the other hand you can get the best ending with the galactic readiness locked at 50%, thanks to the Extended Cut which lowered the required EMS.

 

So nothing will change when the servers go offline, I think

[Kelwing]

Just add a slider to adjust EMS from 50-100%

 

Course it would have been nice to see things actually in game change as EMS does. Otherwise it was a useless addition to game.

[SilJeff]

This is specifically why I wished they gave us an offline version of the multiplayer where instead of 3 human players you, it would be 3 computer players. That way MP can still be played when they turn the servers off.

[Tonymac]

My issue with EMS is rather simple.  Your get it to a certain level, and it no longer matters.  Personally, I wanted to Win the war against the Reapers.  That piddly 3700 or whatever it was felt very low for someone like me with about 25K EMS.  None of my extra work paid off.  There is no win, only defeat - no matter how hard you try.  Ok, you get a breath scene, and the possibility to Borgify the Galaxy.  Wow - thanks!  Good writing guys.  *cough*

 

Like Iakus said - it should be implemented properly.  Make it mean something.  Tech advances, unlocks - things that make sense. More races would be on board with your fleet if you are not only the last chance, but the Best chance (or maybe even win).  Alliances would help us win the war and even get some  stability back in the Galaxy after the war.

[MegaIllusiveMan]

Very interesting, but after some playthroughs(One or two) the planet Scanning got boring, and TBH, it would be more worthy if they were actually employed visually(or Phisically) on the Final Battle.

[AlanC9]

I
Talking specifically about EMS, I think it's a deplorable system which perpetuates poor gameplay and story mechanics, enabling the developers to toss in pointless fetch quests which do nothing but increase the value an arbitrary pile of points. It goes against one of the most important rules of videogames: "show, don't tell." Rather than cultivating an environment where meaningful content can emerge, EMS simply justifies the existence trivial tasks, which give the illusion substance (albeit poorly).

This isn't very sensible. DA2 had similar fetch quests without any EMS system. ME2 had several as well. And ME1 has plenty of pointless missions that aren't fetch quests. Given the existence of XP and cash, you hardly need another reward mechanism to do that sort of quest.

[AlanC9]

My issue with EMS is rather simple. Your get it to a certain level, and it no longer matters. Personally, I wanted to Win the war against the Reapers. That piddly 3700 or whatever it was felt very low for someone like me with about 25K EMS. None of my extra work paid off. There is no win, only defeat - no matter how hard you try. Ok, you get a breath scene, and the possibility to Borgify the Galaxy. Wow - thanks! Good writing guys. *cough*

So you played a lot of MP and thought that should unlock a super special ending for you? I thought tying endings to MP was a bad thing.

[laudable11]

I liked the EMS/War assets system. I thought it should have been deeper.

There should have been an opt out option for those who didn't want to participate.

[Iakus]

So you played a lot of MP and thought that should unlock a super special ending for you? I thought tying endings to MP was a bad thing.

MP is completely beside the point.  I can get close to 7K EMS without it and it still doesn't matter.

 

The point is, beyond a certain point, you are no longer allowed to do any better.  No matter how well you do.

[RoboticWater]

This isn't very sensible. DA2 had similar fetch quests without any EMS system. ME2 had several as well. And ME1 has plenty of pointless missions that aren't fetch quests. Given the existence of XP and cash, you hardly need another reward mechanism to do that sort of quest.

 

Forgive me if I gave the wrong impression. My opinion of EMS is that provides the environment for pointless fetch quests. While it may not directly cause poor quest design, it certainly gives the developers an excuse to get a bit lazy.

[chris2365]

MP is completely beside the point.  I can get close to 7K EMS without it and it still doesn't matter.

 

The point is, beyond a certain point, you are no longer allowed to do any better.  No matter how well you do.

 

Yeah, I was sort of hoping that those who played all 3 games, did everything right, 99% maxed out all of the possible EMS, would get something extra. A more epic and hopeful refuse ending? A little extra scene at the end showing a ceremony on the Citadel with everyone from the trilogy there, and leaving the game on a slightly happier tone? 

 

Nothing big. Just something small to reward the long-time fans 

[AlanC9]

Forgive me if I gave the wrong impression. My opinion of EMS is that provides the environment for pointless fetch quests. While it may not directly cause poor quest design, it certainly gives the developers an excuse to get a bit lazy.

OK. I still don't see how the causality works there, though. What does the EMS reward mechanism do that the XP reward mechanism does not do?

The main difference between EMS and other reward systems is that EMS means that there's always an RP reason to do sidequests -- at least until you pass the final point threshold, which is what iakus is talking about. But that strikes me as a good thing, and in any event I don't see how it has any effect at all on the actual design of those sidequests.

Edit: I'm assuming that XP isn't real to the character. If it is, then all sidequests have the same RP motivation that ME2 LMs do, since they prepare you better for the final battle. Unless the PC is aware of level scaling, in which case more XP could be useless or even counterproductive

[Malanek]

Hypothetically let us suppose one of the storylines in ME4 involved setting up a colony. I think it would be interesting to have a "score" of all your resources. Your minerals, your scientists, your soldiers, your civillians, your ships etc and somehow work them into the story.

[AlanC9]

MP is completely beside the point. I can get close to 7K EMS without it and it still doesn't matter.

The point is, beyond a certain point, you are no longer allowed to do any better. No matter how well you do.

7K? Really? Wow. Back when I was helping Femlob with his EMS project the theoretical maximum we came up with was far less than that. Do the DLCs add something like 6,000 WA points or so? Or did you just play that app thing a lot?

I'll certainly agree that DLC WA awards and MP effects make the EMS system worse. This isn't unusual for DLC, which almost always worsens game balance, though usually the problem is overpowered items. The EMS thresholds should have been adjusted for the presence of DLC. Dunno about MP; is being able to skip content with no penalty a reward, or a problem? I don't much care since I don't MP anyway, but if I did I'd really dislike the Readiness increase.

But without those issues I don't see the problem.

[RoboticWater]

OK. I still don't see how the causality works there, though. What does the EMS reward mechanism do that the XP reward mechanism does not do?

The main difference between EMS and other reward systems is that EMS means that there's always an RP reason to do sidequests -- at least until you pass the final point threshold, which is what iakus is talking about. But that strikes me as a good thing, and in any event I don't see how it has any effect at all on the actual design of those sidequests.

Edit: I'm assuming that XP isn't real to the character. If it is, then all sidequests have the same RP motivation that ME2 LMs do, since they prepare you better for the final battle. Unless the PC is aware of level scaling, in which case more XP could be useless or even counterproductive

 

EMS does not affect sidequests and somehow turn them bad. EMS is just another arbitrary construct that might allow them to exist. 

 

Let's say that Bioware is short on content, but doesn't want to spend too much time making in-depth missions. They also want to address people's complaints about ME2's sidequests which didn't relate too much back to the story. So rather than making meaningful content which could easily justify it's own existence both gameplay and story wise, the devs quickly create a bunch of lame fetch-quests and manufacture a reason for their existence that conveniently (albeit poorly) ties it back to the story.

 

Regardless of whether or not EMS had that effect on ME3, the system still perpetuates poor gameplay design simply by being another random bar you have to fill up. Meaningful content only occurs when the quest itself is more gratifying to the player than the reward. Those kind of quests are usually built from the ground up, leaving the reward as an afterthought. Fetch quests are built in the opposite direction; the developers want or need the player to get a cash or XP, so they invent an excuse to give him some. 

[Raizo]

I hate it, I really ****** hate it. I have a lot of issues with ME3 but the fact that everything in the series is reduced to a number completely ruins not only ME3 but also the whole entire series for me. A different choice should be a different choice, when you attach a number, a virtual score to each choice your essentially sending out the message to the gamer that one choice is better than the other and that one choice is right and the other is wrong.

[spinachdiaper]

It was silly and they got enough input to make it kaput with the ending DLC

[Iakus]

7K? Really? Wow. Back when I was helping Femlob with his EMS project the theoretical maximum we came up with was far less than that. Do the DLCs add something like 6,000 WA points or so? Or did you just play that app thing a lot?

I'll certainly agree that DLC WA awards and MP effects make the EMS system worse. This isn't unusual for DLC, which almost always worsens game balance, though usually the problem is overpowered items. The EMS thresholds should have been adjusted for the presence of DLC. Dunno about MP; is being able to skip content with no penalty a reward, or a problem? I don't much care since I don't MP anyway, but if I did I'd really dislike the Readiness increase.

But without those issues I don't see the problem.

I'd have to load up a game to get an exact number.  If I can be bothered.  But it is a stupidly high amount, with a "perfect" import and all DLC.

 

Is being able to skip content with no penalty a reward or a problem?  Depands on the game.    But to me, a game that supposedly celebrates a choice-filled narrative that gives the player the ability to shape the story, getting the exact same outcome whether you actually followed the story or played a few dozen hours as a faceless N7 sounds like a problem. 

 

Though personally the main problem is:  no matter what you do, you are only allowed to do so well.  You can't hope to aspire to an ending that sucks less than what we got, no matter how "perfect" a game you play, no matter how much DLC you get, no matter how big an arbitrary number you get.  You simply don't deserve better.  No matter how big of a difference you made, it doesn't make any difference.

[AlanC9]

I'd have to load up a game to get an exact number.  If I can be bothered.  But it is a stupidly high amount, with a "perfect" import and all DLC.

Dug up my old spreadsheet. Our theoretical EMS maximum was 4303, all DLC included. (I wouldn't say this has been extensively vetted, though.) Not quite 7K, but 1200 points over what's needed for all endings. A playthrough with no import and all DLC gives 3601 points, so that's 500 spare points. Note that maximum w/o DLC or an import is only 3004; IIRC that means Shepard cannot survive.

Is being able to skip content with no penalty a reward or a problem?  Depands on the game.    But to me, a game that supposedly celebrates a choice-filled narrative that gives the player the ability to shape the story, getting the exact same outcome whether you actually followed the story or played a few dozen hours as a faceless N7 sounds like a problem.

More realistically, the effect would be to permit players to skip the scanning and fetch quests. Sidequests aren't all that productive in WA terms anyway, so I don't think making further WA awards superfluous would change the incentives to play them. But I suppose we should ask someone who actually plays MP what effect, if any, it has on his playstyle.,
 

Though personally the main problem is:  no matter what you do, you are only allowed to do so well.  You can't hope to aspire to an ending that sucks less than what we got, no matter how "perfect" a game you play, no matter how much DLC you get, no matter how big an arbitrary number you get.  You simply don't deserve better.  No matter how big of a difference you made, it doesn't make any difference.

I don't see how this has much to do with EMS itself. Any other system for determining what ending you get would also only give the endings that the designers decided to give you. Unless you're saying that being able to exceed the existing thresholds gave people false hope? I agree with that, at least to the extent of dynamically adjusting the thresholds to increase with DLC. Not sure about how to handle imports since I can see a case for letting importers have an easier time of it, but the counterargument is pretty strong too.

(Please don't tell me you fell for that Puzzle Theory nonsense jUliA used to push.)

[AlanC9]

Let's say that Bioware is short on content, but doesn't want to spend too much time making in-depth missions. They also want to address people's complaints about ME2's sidequests which didn't relate too much back to the story. So rather than making meaningful content which could easily justify it's own existence both gameplay and story wise, the devs quickly create a bunch of lame fetch-quests and manufacture a reason for their existence that conveniently (albeit poorly) ties it back to the story.

For this to work Bio would have to be using a very bizarre metric to determine whether or not they were "short on content," and have a very strange idea about what would actually satisfy people's ME2 sidequest complaints. (I'm not sure those complaints should even have been taken seriously since sidequests in ME1 were actively contradictory to the supposedly urgent main plot, and nobody complained about those.) These things aren't inconceivable, but I don't see any good reason to assume that they're true.

I think it's more likely that you've got this exactly backwards. Bio wanted to make content that required exploring parts of the galaxy map that didn't have missions, exploring the mission maps completely, and walking around the Citadel listening to ambient conversations. EMS is a way to have that content make sense. Note that ME2 didn't have EMS, but requiring minerals for upgrades provided equivalent motivation for exploring the galaxy map. And ME2 had the same kind of fetch quests, except that they paid off in cash and XP rather than EMS.

Fetch quests are built in the opposite direction; the developers want or need the player to get a cash or XP, so they invent an excuse to give him some.

This is preposterous. Cash and XP awards are whatever the developer wants them to be. The developer never would need to add a quest in order to pump more cash or XP into the player's coffers; they could simply give out more of those during the existing missions.

[Dominari]

I set Jack to be worth 25,000 and that was the last I ever thought of it.

[Obadiah]

I liked that all the asset entries turned into a mini-story of how the Crucible was built.

They could probably use a similar system to show influence, or the status of a trust being ammassed for some research purpose.

[Allison_Lightning]

The core concept was amazing. It makes sense that you would need as much as you could behind the war against the Reapers. That being said, the EMS component got implemented badly. People would have played the multiplayer anyway- EMS should have been dictated by a combination of the first few games and vital theatres upwards- failing missions like Grissom Academy, especially Tuchanka: Bomb should have slammed your EMS down.

 

The death of the Salarian councillor to saving/destroying the Rachni queen and wiping out the rachni supply line, it needed to translate through EMS just as much as TMS.

[Pateu]

The concept is good. The more you work the more prepared your army is.

 

But I'd like it to be less of a massive score and more of a decision tracker, like with the Geth - Quarian peace.

 

For that, you needed a set of things to happen:

 

1. Tali loyal and alive

 

2. Legion loyal and alive

 

And a number of the following:

 

1. Solving Tali-Legion dispute peacefully ON THE FIRST GO and not AFTER THE FIGHT WAS ALREADY OVER

 

2. Destroying Heretics

 

3. Saving Admiral whatshisname

 

4. Geth simulator thing

 

and probably some more.

 

I like the game to keep a hidden track on what you do and give you an ending based on it, rather than show you a number and you'd go '' Oh need 200 more EMS to save Shepard, better go do some fetch/play multiplayer/play a DLC ''.

[Teddie Sage]

Its execution was terrible in my honest opinion. If they decide to bring it back, please, please, please... Try to include some more scenes in final missions so we can feel the impact of our choices.