Tidal wave! HURRICANE!
Nah. We won't get anything of the sort.
I would have loved to see spells for solid water which is Winter and liquid water. I think that would have been great. As for wind spells, that could have been part of the Telekinesis skill trees but alas we only get Mind Blast and nothing else.
Because balance. Or whatever lame reason. Sigh.
Good point, and more evidence in favor of a diverse spell list rather than cookie-cutter Ice and Fire... I hadn't even considered cold resistance, but that pretty much destroyed what little acceptance I'd had for the current system. Oh well, still hoping for something cool in the specs or the unknown skill trees.
I wish the "inmunity system" of DA2 is gone for good.
Of course I understand that some enemies are weak to certain elements and resistant to others, but taking that to inmunity was going too far. I hated going to the end of Act 1 with a Primal Mage Hawke, and discover that your main nuking abilities were useless.
I really really hope that if Fire and Winter are 2 of the trees, they are really different. Right now the spells are too similar for my taste (a wall of each, a glyph of each, an AoE of each, a nuke spell of each,....) ¬¬
It seems like they are the equivalent of "choose your weapon!" of the warrior and rogue, but instead it is just a "choose your element!". And I dont quite like that, because it means we will have very little options in spells, and variety for a mage is hugely important.
I would like to see at least, that fire spells do a lot of damage, and winter spells offer a ton of CC. That way we could at least choose between a nuker and a support mage, not just the elemental nature of our main nukes.
I wish the "inmunity system" of DA2 is gone for good.
Of course I understand that some enemies are weak to certain elements and resistant to others, but taking that to inmunity was going too far. I hated going to the end of Act 1 with a Primal Mage Hawke, and discover that your main nuking abilities were useless.
I really really hope that if Fire and Winter are 2 of the trees, they are really different. Right now the spells are too similar for my taste (a wall of each, a glyph of each, an AoE of each, a nuke spell of each,....) ¬¬
It seems like they are the equivalent of "choose your weapon!" of the warrior and rogue, but instead it is just a "choose your element!". And I dont quite like that, because it means we will have very little options in spells, and variety for a mage is hugely important.
I would like to see at least, that fire spells do a lot of damage, and winter spells offer a ton of CC. That way we could at least choose between a nuker and a support mage, not just the elemental nature of our main nukes.
You make a good point with the "choose your element !" comment. Once again, I hope Bioware combines all the elements into one skill tree and call it Primal or Elemental or Avatar or whatever...
There do seem to be different uses for the different elements. Winter is about slowing down and weakening your enemies (I assume stamina, attack damage ect) where as Inferno is more about dealing damage, it says something about driving your enemies mad with terror so some fire attacks may cause a fear like effect and some fire spells probably do damage over time.
Ofc I still would prefer they were both just one tree (even if it was bigger than other trees) but I don't think the spells are exactly the same just with a different element.
Love the idea you guys have for water magic.
I present to you, the aquamancer!
Love the idea you guys have for water magic.
I present to you, the aquamancer!
Spoiler
An AOE rain spell. 
The Inquisitor makes it rain and then all your enemies stand around for short time complaining about the weather, afterwards they are allot slower because they all got wet. 
I shall call it 'Taste Of Britain' 
Guest_IceQuinn_*
Think we might get another Telekinesis type of spell - if you watch closely during the Redcliffe video (part 2, 3:25 in), FemQunari mage Quizzy grabs/holds a foe and tosses them (at another foe? I was convinced there for a moment..!Nah. We won't get anything of the sort.
I would have loved to see spells for solid water which is Winter and liquid water. I think that would have been great. As for wind spells, that could have been part of the Telekinesis skill trees but alas we only get Mind Blast and nothing else.
Because balance. Or whatever lame reason. Sigh.
). #WishfulThinking
) to tell *exactly* what it is at this point, if it's even a spell (any relation to that "winged-boot" spell icon? A finish move or something else entirely, who knows)... except that it did kinda look like TK to me at first glance. #WishfulThinkingAgain???
There do seem to be different uses for the different elements. Winter is about slowing down and weakening your enemies (I assume stamina, attack damage ect) where as Inferno is more about dealing damage, it says something about driving your enemies mad with terror so some fire attacks may cause a fear like effect and some fire spells probably do damage over time.
Ofc I still would prefer they were both just one tree (even if it was bigger than other trees) but I don't think the spells are exactly the same just with a different element.
We should have non-elemental versions of slow, paralyze, and fear spells in addition to those bonus elemental effects. Completely removing alternative methods of causing status effects just means that enemies with cold resistance or immunity automatically resist or nullify slow and paralyze. Aside from having to worry about resistances, the need to invest in ice magic in order to cause slow/paralyze is very restricting. What if I want to use lightning as my primary damage type? Why can't I have access to a simple paralysis spell without having to take one or more spells from the Winter tree? I'm willing to bet that at least one of the ice passives is "increased chance to freeze," which would mean investing multiple points in Winter even if I just want the side effect.
Now, again, I realize that we're working with incomplete information, but what I've seen thus far does not look promising. All the limitations and streamlining is getting on my nerves. I hope they addressed this issue in the final version of the game. Only time will tell.
I agree with this post.There do seem to be different uses for the different elements. Winter is about slowing down and weakening your enemies (I assume stamina, attack damage ect) where as Inferno is more about dealing damage, it says something about driving your enemies mad with terror so some fire attacks may cause a fear like effect and some fire spells probably do damage over time.
Ofc I still would prefer they were both just one tree (even if it was bigger than other trees) but I don't think the spells are exactly the same just with a different element.
We should have non-elemental versions of slow, paralyze, and fear spells in addition to those bonus elemental effects. Completely removing alternative methods of causing status effects just means that enemies with cold resistance or immunity automatically resist or nullify slow and paralyze. Aside from having to worry about resistances, the need to invest in ice magic in order to cause slow/paralyze is very restricting. What if I want to use lightning as my primary damage type? Why can't I have access to a simple paralysis spell without having to take one or more spells from the Winter tree? I'm willing to bet that at least one of the ice passives is "increased chance to freeze," which would mean investing multiple points in Winter even if I just want the side effect.
Now, again, I realize that we're working with incomplete information, but what I've seen thus far does not look promising. All the limitations and streamlining is getting on my nerves. I hope they addressed this issue in the final version of the game. Only time will tell.
This is also my concern and is one of the reasons why I started this thread.
In find the whole notion of sacrificing variety and options, which they seem to be doing here, downright sacrilegious.
Streamlining...the blight of RPGs.
This is also my concern and is one of the reasons why I started this thread.
In find the whole notion of sacrificing variety and options, which they seem to be doing here, downright sacrilegious.
Streamlining...the blight of RPGs.
RPGs are filled with **** abilities. It's almost the hallmark of an RPG to force its players to navigate through untold amounts of terrible and worthless spells to find the few that have actual value. The problem isn't streamlining - it's the fact that abilities are tiered.
If I want to have an increased chance to freeze enemies, I have to pick lots of other abilities I don't want. That has nothing to do with streamlining. There's no real reason to have abilities tiered like this, other than to increase difficulty of the base game by not allowing you to avoid the **** abilities that so frequently infest RPGs.
A great example is DA:O. To get to something OP like, say, fireball or Mana Clash, I have to pick up a lot of worthless abilities.
RPGs are filled with **** abilities. It's almost the hallmark of an RPG to force its players to navigate through untold amounts of terrible and worthless spells to find the few that have actual value. The problem isn't streamlining - it's the fact that abilities are tiered.
If I want to have an increased chance to freeze enemies, I have to pick lots of other abilities I don't want. That has nothing to do with streamlining. There's no real reason to have abilities tiered like this, other than to increase difficulty of the base game by not allowing you to avoid the **** abilities that so frequently infest RPGs.
A great example is DA:O. To get to something OP like, say, fireball or Mana Clash, I have to pick up a lot of worthless abilities.
This problem is also a real dealbreaker when it comes to fun in customization in DA:2
Like... if you want a skill in a tree, you suddenly see that "Requires 4 spells in this tree", forcing you to take skills you dont want. For example, if you want improved taunt range for your tank, you are forced to take pommel strike even if your tank is built so it will never have enough stamina to use it.
We should have non-elemental versions of slow, paralyze, and fear spells in addition to those bonus elemental effects. Completely removing alternative methods of causing status effects just means that enemies with cold resistance or immunity automatically resist or nullify slow and paralyze. Aside from having to worry about resistances, the need to invest in ice magic in order to cause slow/paralyze is very restricting. What if I want to use lightning as my primary damage type? Why can't I have access to a simple paralysis spell without having to take one or more spells from the Winter tree? I'm willing to bet that at least one of the ice passives is "increased chance to freeze," which would mean investing multiple points in Winter even if I just want the side effect.
Now, again, I realize that we're working with incomplete information, but what I've seen thus far does not look promising. All the limitations and streamlining is getting on my nerves. I hope they addressed this issue in the final version of the game. Only time will tell.
Oh I don't disagree with you on that I was just pointing out that there do seem to be differences despite the fact that most of the spells in those trees look like the same spells but with a different element.
Oh I don't disagree with you on that I was just pointing out that there do seem to be differences despite the fact that most of the spells in those trees look like the same spells but with a different element.
Well, if most of the old spells had to be removed, at least we have more than just pure elemental damage... it just reminds me too much of Skyrim, but w/e. I'll try to look on the bright side.
This problem is also a real dealbreaker when it comes to fun in customization in DA:2
Like... if you want a skill in a tree, you suddenly see that "Requires 4 spells in this tree", forcing you to take skills you dont want. For example, if you want improved taunt range for your tank, you are forced to take pommel strike even if your tank is built so it will never have enough stamina to use it.
That was a terrible choice for upgrades. Very frustrating. Any use out of most abilities required the upgrade for CCC purposes.
RPGs are filled with **** abilities. It's almost the hallmark of an RPG to force its players to navigate through untold amounts of terrible and worthless spells to find the few that have actual value. The problem isn't streamlining - it's the fact that abilities are tiered.
If I want to have an increased chance to freeze enemies, I have to pick lots of other abilities I don't want. That has nothing to do with streamlining. There's no real reason to have abilities tiered like this, other than to increase difficulty of the base game by not allowing you to avoid the **** abilities that so frequently infest RPGs.
A great example is DA:O. To get to something OP like, say, fireball or Mana Clash, I have to pick up a lot of worthless abilities.
True, and it does suck. I guess the reasoning is that you need train to better abilities. You need to hit a higher level of mastery to use the more useful and powerful aspects of a school of combat or magic. Still annoying, but I can at least see why it is the way it is.
Anyone else hope the knight enchanter conjured blades can be elementally altered?
Yeah, I'm hoping it takes on the element type of your staff. Physical only seems like it would defeat the purpose of a magic sword, and restricting it to any one damage type would be a disadvantage against any enemy immune/resistant to that damage type. Plus I really really want a lightning sword.
We should have non-elemental versions of slow, paralyze, and fear spells in addition to those bonus elemental effects. Completely removing alternative methods of causing status effects just means that enemies with cold resistance or immunity automatically resist or nullify slow and paralyze. Aside from having to worry about resistances, the need to invest in ice magic in order to cause slow/paralyze is very restricting. What if I want to use lightning as my primary damage type? Why can't I have access to a simple paralysis spell without having to take one or more spells from the Winter tree? I'm willing to bet that at least one of the ice passives is "increased chance to freeze," which would mean investing multiple points in Winter even if I just want the side effect.
The highlighted part makes no sense, its like saying "Why cant I have access to a simple paralysis spell without having to take one or more spells from the Entropy tree?". If you just want the paralysis spell, and it is not first tier, you will surely have to invest in that tree whatever that tree is. And maybe get a lot of crappy spells, like in all Dragon Age's. (I also find it annoying, but that it's how it is, and balances the game too)
However, I couldnt agree more with you in the "resist frost = resist CC" part. I would hate that to happen, since it seems support spells are going to be mixed in other trees this time around. As I said before, I hate inmunity because it is a terrible way to implement difficulty, so I hope this time they justgo with resistances, and those resistances just affect how much damage you take, not if you are affected by the CC.
Another thing we havent talked about yet, it's skill placement. I find that KEY to balance the trees and give more options. For example, if you were to play a support mage, it would be awesome if you could take glyph of frost and wall of ice, without having to invest 10 points in the Winter tree. Meaning that of the 2 paths of the Winter tree, one were to be the nuking path, and the other the supportive path. That way we could play an elemental nuker or a support mage, without having to feel like we dont have the option. Give me crappy nuking spells or crappy support spells as a prerequisite, or having to enhance certain spells just to dump points in order to get the juicy spells, it's ok, but dont force me to play a nuke+support mage if I dont want to. I think this would be the answer to a lot of our fears.
Yeah, I'm hoping it takes on the element type of your staff. Physical only seems like it would defeat the purpose of a magic sword, and restricting it to any one damage type would be a disadvantage against any enemy immune/resistant to that damage type. Plus I really really want a lightning sword.
I hope it is like that too. It would give a very interesting twist to the Knight Enchanter, being a melée magical elemental DPS. I can see myself carrying 3 different staffs and changing them accordingly to the next encounter. In a game where usually magic damage is reduced by resistances, but physical damage is always awesome, I think it is important we find a way for a Knight Enchanter to be the exception and bypass those common resistances in some way.
That's a balancing tool. Instead, we could just have some abilities cost more points than others, so you'd have to save up for them.RPGs are filled with **** abilities. It's almost the hallmark of an RPG to force its players to navigate through untold amounts of terrible and worthless spells to find the few that have actual value. The problem isn't streamlining - it's the fact that abilities are tiered.
If I want to have an increased chance to freeze enemies, I have to pick lots of other abilities I don't want. That has nothing to do with streamlining. There's no real reason to have abilities tiered like this, other than to increase difficulty of the base game by not allowing you to avoid the **** abilities that so frequently infest RPGs.
A great example is DA:O. To get to something OP like, say, fireball or Mana Clash, I have to pick up a lot of worthless abilities.
Anyone else hope the knight enchanter conjured blades can be elementally altered?
Knight enchanters have conjured weapons?
The highlighted part makes no sense, its like saying "Why cant I have access to a simple paralysis spell without having to take one or more spells from the Entropy tree?". If you just want the paralysis spell, and it is not first tier, you will surely have to invest in that tree whatever that tree is. And maybe get a lot of crappy spells, like in all Dragon Age's. (I also find it annoying, but that it's how it is, and balances the game too)
If you and In Exile have an issue with tiers, that's fine. I never brought that up because I don't. Having tiered spells makes perfect sense to me as it demonstrates a character's mastery over a particular type/school of magic.
In DA:O, the Debilitation branch of the Entropy tree was: Weakness, Paralyze, Miasma, Mass Paralysis
If you wanted to go a different route, the very first Glyph in Creation was... Glyph of Paralysis
All of that is logical. A whole lot more logical than removing 4 full blown spells and turning them into side effects of Ice magic. This is the very definition of streamlining, which is what I was objecting to, not tiers.
I wasn't even going to address this when In Exile brought it up, but now that it's an issue again... those are my thoughts.
(edit: I'm not really talking about the goofy DA2 system with all of the "X points in Primal required" limitations... that stuff was just annoying, especially when I had to learn Earth spells to improve Chain Lightning... ugh... )
Tiers are an extremely useful mechanism for RPG. It is an easy way to show the level of proficiency and master of a character. Tiers are not very different from school grades. You learn basic things in grade 9 and in grade 12, it is more advanced than grade 9 but some basics of grad 9 still exists.
Similarly, fireball is more advanced than flame blast yet the basics of flame blast is part of fireball. Logically speaking, you need to be able to cast continuous streams of fire from your hands before forming it into a projectile and aiming it at something else. The same goes for mana clash and mana drain. Mana clash involves mana alteration to cause damage and mana drain is the most basic form of mana alteration.
If you cannot imagine that, think about something like maths. You cannot learn how to do differential equations without learning multiplication, addition, indices and geometry. By the time you have mastered how to differentiate and integrate complex functions, things like 1+1, 3 x 2^4, tangents, etc seem dull, easy and somewhat pointless when without learning them, you cannot have mastered differential equations.
That is how mastery and learning of anything and everything works. Only naive people expect shortcuts. This is especially true of magic where mages learn magic and they get better at it over time. Naturally, they will have tiers for their spells to make the learning process easier.
Having said this, there tier systems are not perfect. Like Magebane mentioned, it makes no sense for a mage to improve earth spells to improve their lightning ones. It however, makes sense for a mage to improve on their basic lightning spells to boost and advance their lightning casting skills. This does not mean we should just do away entirely with tiers.
Additionally, it should be perfectly fine to have two paralysis spells that have different effects. Once again, using differential equations, you can solve a differential for a function using just geometry or just algebra or a combination of both. So similarly, if a mage wishes to paralyze a target, it makes sense that some would want to directly cast a spirit spell, some want to lay a creation glyph and some might want to petrify them.
Again, this is just how things work. This is how RPGs are supposed to work. You have to have different methods of doing things, you have to go through some form of learning curve. Not having either of these aspects is a form of streamlining. It hurts replayability and it hurts roleplaying.
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