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Abolish the classist system and install a military junta!


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#1
Gamemako

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//EDIT: Updated with Version 2. New plan below; contains no spec restrictions. All roles are explicitly denoted.

Additionally, new TL;DR version: Warrior/Rogue distinction has no place in lore and sucks for gameplay. Talent tree system already separates builds by weapon selection as two weapon types simultaneously don't work in practice. Present system results in minimal build choice, forces players to bring companions they don't want, slams everyone into prescribed combat roles, and misses the bulk of possibilities proffered by the new crafting system. To fix it, define classes by lore (mages vs non-mages only) and by weapon choice, and use specializations and equipment choice to determine combat role. Result is a more diverse group of options with more variety and uniqueness without forcing players into undesired roles.

//EDIT END

Inspired by the create-a-class thread, I thought I would create a scenario for what I think DA classes should be. Actually, I was going to edit in an expansion to my previous post in that thread, but that was then. I could edit it in now, or I could make a new topic because BSN is my personal blog. In any case, now that I get around to posting it, here's something that will likely never happen in DA but would be the direction I'd do if I were, like, Glorious Dictator of BioWarestan.

The only real character distinction in DA lore is between mages and non-mages. There's certainly no fundamental distinction between warriors and rogues, as both are merely combatants. You'll never approach an NPC and have them run away from you because you're a bow-wielding rogue and not a zweihänder-toting warrior. The distinction is purely for gameplay purposes, and I find it more intrusive than beneficial. It's especially awkward that enemies don't really obey these distinctions either: there are plenty of dual-wielding Templars out to backstab you in DA2, but you cannot do the same. Naturally, this exists as part the gameplay band-aid to keep the warrior-rogue dichotomy. Back in DA:O, warriors could take any weapon skill they should have desired, including dual weapons. That made warriors more reasonable, but also reduced the uniqueness of both.

Of course, that also meant rogues were just weapon-limited warriors with superior talent sets. In that situation, either dual weapons had to be useless for warriors, or rogues had to be fully superior to warriors. The latter turned out to be the case. Nevertheless, it was totally unnecessary because the distinction was unnecessary. That could well have just been a talent choice instead of a class choice. Instead, the solution BioWare took was to further differentiate warrior and rogue, and that lead to the aforementioned issues. That approach really just becomes a sort of false choice. You aren't really getting something unique; you're just splitting your options haphazardly. It makes little sense that carrying a bow teaches you to pick locks while carrying a large sword does not. Not to mention the poor mage peasants who can't pick locks because magic apparently takes over that part of their brains or something.

Speaking of mages, the lack of martial skills for mages, especially among apostates and apostate mercenaries, makes little sense. The last thing I'd be doing as a mage on the run is wear robes that broadcast your location and carry no weapon with which to defend myself except by outing myself as a mage. And it can't possibly be a loss to carry a sword, as that sword is definitely a better tool than a stick when push comes to shove. Especially years after the mage rebellion, and with the behaviors of less Circle-type mages elsewhere in Thedas, I'd expect some weapon styles for mages. There's generally a spec to fill the gap, but it's never large enough to really flesh out what a mage with a weapon should be (because it's a spec). But a spec really isn't too much smaller than any other skill tree: differentiation requires more than one skill tree. This applies to current non-mage classes in DA:I especially. All weapon choices within a class are largely meaningless. In DA2, you could spec both W&S and Two-handed talents, but there's no good reason to do so due to overlap, lack of additional utility, and scarcity of talent points. Thus, in DA:I, a rogue or warrior is essentially 1 weapon tree, 2 class trees, and 1 spec. That is an unfortunate lack of choice and variety, especially when there are least 2 companion pairs with identical weapon sets.

In any case, all the issues here can be addressed by abolishing the current class system and creating a council of eight sensible, diverse military options separated by the two important and unavoidable factors: magical prowess and weapon choice. The rogue/warrior distinction would go the way of the Federalist Party; DW warrior would exist again because your combat role would be defined by your choice of talents, specialization, and equipment. In its place, you have the four weapon styles for non-mage defining each class, and a similar selection for mages. We presently have only two choices: staves and AW/KE swords. We're also ostensibly missing a rogue-type mage, and because this came out of that other thread, I'm going to just state that the last would be magical monk-type fighter and get on with it. Obviously, I would be remiss to omit skill tree design after discussing it. Each class would need two unique skill trees to define their weapon style. From there, you have an additional one based on their particular alignment (explained further later), then one based on simply being a mage or non-mage, then the specialization tree. That setup would require a total of 30 trees, up from 21 in DA:I and 27 (+6 companion specs) in DA2 but nowhere near the 64 (!) trees in DA:O. All of these will be used to ensure class differentiation as well as offering wide potential.

Each class is named after a previous specialization, with the exception of two newcomers rogue-mage Illusionist and hybrid mage Spirit Monk. These are names largely appropriate to the class, but are not the specializations themselves. For example, Ranger does not summon animals; it is merely the bow class. There are also four specializations for each of the two groups (mage and non-mage). Each of these specializations fills a combat role rather than being a flavor selection. The combat roles are: Healer, Tank, Pet/Summoner, and Stealth. Only one specialization can be selected, but any class can fill any role by selecting the appropriate specialization.

New Class Plan Revision 2
Spoiler


In terms of specializations, I did omit Reaver and Blood Mage from the previous version due to being incompatible with certain classes (Reaver doesn't work with bows, Blood Mage doesn't work for characters without weapons), and due to not filling any particular role in combat. I also cut Templar due to filling no role, and having no counterpart in mages. For a non-mage pet class, I chose the Ash Warriors from lore and their mabari companion due to making sense (unlike DA:O Ranger) and being awesome. Also, Ash Warriors make a lot more sense in the game once you remove the Rogue-Warrior dichotomy, since they're mostly reformed criminals (rogues gone warrior, more or less). Artificer is re-imagined as a potion-based healer, with a wink and a nudge covering the cost required to actually produce said potions. Balance between the two is essential to keep the player from being forced to choose one or the other out of need instead of appeal. As for tanks, Keeper has always been a very tank-appropriate spec, bringing debuffs, CC, and minor self-heals. It would parallel Guardian's chain-hook pulls with tangled roots dragging the opponent back to the Keeper. And I think that's about all for specializations that could possibly require explanation.





OLD VERSION (for posterity):
Spoiler

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#2
Orian Tabris

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This is all very cool and interesting, to be honest. However, it's too complicated. At least for the casual player who just wants to enjoy the story (although, why you would play Dragon Age purely for the story, and on casual, is beyond me 0- unless they really suck at the game). BioWare obviously won't attempt to change Dragon Age's class system in this way or any other way that involves altering rogues and warriors so that they become both/neither. It's probably too late lore-wise to change the games into this, anyway.

 

Some people would probably say it's too MMO/anime-based to work in a western-CRPG, and/or dislike it for that reason. I would be OK with it, had it not been proffered after DAO's release.



#3
Vapaa

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The mage/warrior/rogue trinity is not a concept that suits DA lore, get rid of it.


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#4
Icy Magebane

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I guess... I mean, it seems like an interesting system, but something doesn't feel right.  Why can't I be a Templar who uses two handed weapons?  And why is Berserker restricted to two handed weapons?  I can see what you were trying to do with the mage trees, but the warrior trees seem too restricting.  Changing Champion and Berserker to weapon styles isn't doing it for me.


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#5
Guest_Puddi III_*

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Strange political metaphors aside, sure why not. I'm no big fan of the trinity, though I don't see BioWare abandoning it for this franchise anytime soon, or ever.

 

The only flaw I see in your proposal, and it is an egregious one: no shapeshifter.



#6
aTigerslunch

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I imagined that the Templars that carried two weapons in DA2 were of the rogue class and not the warrior class to be honest.

 

Distinctions of classes........

 

Warriors would be dealing with weapons, any style, that is fine....but..

 

Rogues are not warriors, rogues spend time in the streets, learning pick pocket, thieving, sneaking around, a warrior can sneak to an extent but not as a thief is capable of. Rogues also are light versus the heavy warriors most times. I don't see a problem with the classless system, if someone is specializing in skill sets, it should restrict them in other skillsets, shouldn't be able to specialize in all the skills. Hence classes are fine to me.

 

I would not want a pilot being a brain surgeon as well as a cardiologist. To be specialized takes time and continued practice.

 

Building a classless system can work if consider this, otherwise it is a bit nonsense if it doesn't fit. If the skillsets match, fine.



#7
Gamemako

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However, it's too complicated. At least for the casual player who just wants to enjoy the story...


Really, you already make the decision for the most part. You cannot be a W&S+Two-handed warrior in DA2 -- well, you technically can, but it's terrible, frustrating, and pointless. The changes to non-mages compared to DA2 (and from what we have seen, DA:I) are actually quite minimal for that reason and mainly serve to improve variety and avoid the obnoxious rogue requirement. The main departure is the expansion of mages, who are currently restricted to the lamest archetype in gaming this side of androgynous JRPG heroes. Every time I see a mage with a stick for a weapon and a burlap sack for attire, I wonder what collective madness struck the designers.

BioWare obviously won't attempt to change Dragon Age's class system in this way or any other way that involves altering rogues and warriors so that they become both/neither. It's probably too late lore-wise to change the games into this, anyway.


Yes, I also doubt they'll make that kind of change -- I said so in the first paragraph, after all. However, there's no lore distinction between rogues and warriors. It's all a gameplay distinction, so DA4 really could at the very least toss that out the window.

(Also, not seeing where you're getting eastern influence aside from the monk. That one's more because of Jade Empire, a BioWare title and because mages in DA are typically shown using no weapons at all except ingame.)

I guess... I mean, it seems like an interesting system, but something doesn't feel right.  Why can't I be a Templar who uses two handed weapons?  And why is Berserker restricted to two handed weapons?  I can see what you were trying to do with the mage trees, but the warrior trees seem too restricting.  Changing Champion and Berserker to weapon styles isn't doing it for me.


In terms of the names, those are just pulled from DA with respect to their lore. Berserkers in lore generally use two-handed weapons, and a weapon and shield setup makes little thematic sense for them generally: Why are you holding up a shield when you're supposed to be berserk? That actually was also part of the division of skill trees, where Duelist and Berserker would have parry-riposte instead of block -- more aggression than having a shield. Still, you could just as well remove the label and pick something else. I also almost called the weapon-and-shield setup "Guardian", but that suggested more about the role of the class than is really intended. Champion as a spec never made sense anyway; the name is pretty meaningless.

As for Templars, none of them except Carver and Meredith use two-handed weapons, and berserking does not mesh with being a Templar in the first place. I suppose, though, that some of the restrictions are pretty iffy, and a lot of it comes from the fact that a few combinations are particularly awkward. Blood Mage Spirit Monk and Reaver Ranger are the two biggest offenders -- just try and explain them at all. Restricting only 2-4 classes from a spec would be pretty egregious, so I restricted all instead, which yields a flimsy explanation for restricting Battlemage from Necromancer (which is a MUCH bigger offender than Berserker-Templar).

Maybe it would be better to just go by role:

Healer -- Spirit Healer, Artificer
Pet -- Necromancer, Fog Warrior
Stealth -- Shadow, Assassin

...which leaves Templar, Reaver, and Blood Mage. The two really problematic ones here are Blood Mage and Reaver, since they simply don't make sense with some weapon sets. They're unfortunately two of the iconic feats, though. I guess you could do Templar & Keeper as tank, but you can't really become a Keeper in lore. Any suggestions?

#8
Enigmatick

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Didn't read all of it but personally all I would do is have the choices be mage or non mage and just remove the restrictions on armor and weapons  and have a wide enough pool of talents for both "classes" to support any archetype.


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#9
Lilacs

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Dragon Age: Inquisition selling point is 'playing your way'.  What this means to me it is akin to the Elder Scrolls game series.  That says much to me because the restriction of class specialization doesn't exist although it is there as a guidance.

 

I play the Elder Scrolls and if Dragon Age: Inquisition is going that direction, I will be the merrier for it.  For the reality of this is that anyone can pick up a weapon or a bow to defend oneself. Will that person be proficient enough by using said weapon? Well, no. However, if the person is able to invest in that talent tree, well, that person can become as proficient as she or he wants to be with said weapon.

 

I am looking forward to this if it is the route Dragon Age: Inquisition will go. Play your way and dress in what you wish is something that I am really looking forward to.


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#10
Paul E Dangerously

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My real gripe with the class system - especially as of DA2 - is just how gimped the weapon selections are. Warriors can no longer use bows or daggers, Rogues can no longer use anything except daggers and bows, and mages are limited to sticks.

 

Not to mention the build types that are eliminated. Warriors are pretty much pidgeonholed into tanks, rogues are DPS, etc. No more Dex Warriors or brawling Rogues.


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#11
Gamemako

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The only flaw I see in your proposal, and it is an egregious one: no shapeshifter.


Heh, I did consider it, but it's hard to find a mechanical place for shapeshifting. With persistent transformations, you generally end up either useless compared to the starting form or overpowered as hell by doing that second role well. I suppose you could use some short transformations though, a-la Torchlight II's Shadow Burst ability. Not sure that would remotely satisfy the people who want shapeshifting, though.

Dragon Age: Inquisition selling point is 'playing your way'. What this means to me it is akin to the Elder Scrolls game series.


Unfortunately, class design in DA:I seems anything but. There are 21 total skill trees, fewest in the series to date, and only 5 can be used at any given time. In practice, however, only 4 are used for non-mages because you will choose one weapon of the two. That leaves you with only 1 weapon, 2 other skill trees, and a spec. In DA2, there were 27 total player trees, and up to 8 could be used at any time (7 excluding second weapon tree). Those were 1 weapon, 4 other skill trees, and 2 specs -- twice as many options for the most part, since speccing that one weapon was basically a given. For mages, almost everything in DA:I has been reduced to Primal spells as at least 2 of the 4 non-spec trees are Primal trees of only one of the four Primal elements (Infero and Winter, with another tree likely dedicated to lightning).

The crafting system sounds like a great step forward, and companions are more varied, but the classes themselves look to be the exact opposite.

#12
PsychoBlonde

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The mage/warrior/rogue trinity is not a concept that suits DA lore, get rid of it.

 

I tend to agree, there's just not enough difference between warriors and rogues.  If there were a lot of trapping and stealing and stealth gameplay, maybe, but there just isn't.


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#13
PsychoBlonde

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Heh, I did consider it, but it's hard to find a mechanical place for shapeshifting. With persistent transformations, you generally end up either useless compared to the starting form or overpowered as hell by doing that second role well. I suppose you could use some short transformations though, a-la Torchlight II's Shadow Burst ability. Not sure that would remotely satisfy the people who want shapeshifting, though.

 

 

DDO has persistent shapeshifting that works really well and is not unbalanced, with wolf, bear, winter wolf, dire bear, fire elemental, water elemental, zombie, wraith, vampire and lich forms.  Probably a good way to do it would be to make each form its own tree with its own set of associated skills.  But there's nothing inherently unbalanced about shapeshifting.



#14
Gamemako

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DDO has persistent shapeshifting that works really well and is not unbalanced, with wolf, bear, winter wolf, dire bear, fire elemental, water elemental, zombie, wraith, vampire and lich forms.  Probably a good way to do it would be to make each form its own tree with its own set of associated skills.  But there's nothing inherently unbalanced about shapeshifting.


I don't know about DDO, so you'll have to clarify that.

For another MMO example that most people will know, WoW's Druid does it fine as well, but it does so by being unable to fight effectively without shapeshifting and requiring a specialization that links it to one role only. You can build the class around it, but you have to clip its wings from the get-go. You can't do that to a mage in DA, least of all with just a specialization.

#15
UnknownIntrigue

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Dragon Age: Inquisition selling point is 'playing your way'.  What this means to me it is akin to the Elder Scrolls game series.  That says much to me because the restriction of class specialization doesn't exist although it is there as a guidance.

 

I play the Elder Scrolls and if Dragon Age: Inquisition is going that direction, I will be the merrier for it.  For the reality of this is that anyone can pick up a weapon or a bow to defend oneself. Will that person be proficient enough by using said weapon? Well, no. However, if the person is able to invest in that talent tree, well, that person can become as proficient as she or he wants to be with said weapon.

 

I am looking forward to this if it is the route Dragon Age: Inquisition will go. Play your way and dress in what you wish is something that I am really looking forward to.

 

That would be something interesting. If that happens, it can also be considered as an innovation, a new thing that probably attracts more interest in the game as the game becomes open to different and mixed playing style while in the earlier games, you should stick with a certain style till the end. But then again it comes up the question for level up for different...attributes like Melee and one handed and other skills and their relation with leveling up. If they go that direction, the level up and part of the gameplay will be a copy of another popular game, which is not a good thing in my opinion and a game may lose its identity and be criticized for it. This is a tricky issue.


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#16
Gamemako

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Made a few changes to specializations to fully declare all roles and remove restrictions. Wouldn't be a good example of a better system if it didn't work, no?

#17
The_Prophet_of_Donk

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Dude.... this really sounds like you need to play KOA: Reckoning, Dragon's Dogma, or Archeage (Beta) . lol

 

In all seriousness though, it would sound amazing, but the application would take a good bit of time and money. For future releases (after Inquisition) your idea would be useful as they do have models to base it off of (i.e. above listed) 

 

I, for one, appreciate the way the classes are and though I had some issues with DA:2, Inquisition looks to revitalize it and create something amazing (for mages at least) and I am excited! 



#18
Cainhurst Crow

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So I guess people want mages to be a race and not a class then. :P


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#19
Gamemako

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Dude.... this really sounds like you need to play KOA: Reckoning, Dragon's Dogma, or Archeage (Beta) . lol


Way ahead of you, though I can't do DD due to not having a console from that generation. I mentioned in another thread playing Shadowcaster in KoA.

Also, I just realized that I never clarified that this was a DA4 suggestion rather than a DA:I one. DA:I is feature-complete and all now; it would be terribly late for that.
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#20
The_Prophet_of_Donk

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Way ahead of you, though I can't do DD due to not having a console from that generation. I mentioned in another thread playing Shadowcaster in KoA.

Also, I just realized that I never clarified that this was a DA4 suggestion rather than a DA:I one. DA:I is feature-complete and all now; it would be terribly late for that.

I freaking love KOA!!! I bought it the day it came out and absolutely could not get into it, then I came back to it after a year and fell in love! Though the charcter creation isn't really in depth, the class system and item creation (to me) is top notch!

I didn't even realize DD wasn't for PC! I actually feel bad for you :(  The class system is a kind of in the middle of both games. You have class specific armour and weapons, but you can change your class at any point in the game! If you decide to come back to the class, you keep all the skills you had already unlocked and if there are any multi-class skills, you carry them over :)    So fun!

 

I hope DA developers frequent these forums, because they can get some good innovative ideas! I don't know if you saw/heard, but there is a class (though the details are only speculated) called Knight Enchanter that has to do with creating energy swords(?) and that may be a step in the right direction for mages that they can develop from.



#21
Gamemako

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I freaking love KOA!!!


Yeah, KoA was terribly underappreciated. The Destiny system was appropriately versatile and the skills were pretty decent all told. Combat system couldn't always make the best of it, but it was a great first attempt with enough positives to overlook the flaws. Could have used some improvements to difficulty as well.

And yet, the game didn't sell well and took everyone involved down with it. Spec Ops: The Line didn't sell well either, but at least Yager are still kicking. Sometimes, I ****** hate the AAA games industry.

I didn't even realize DD wasn't for PC! I actually feel bad for you :(


One of the few console-only games I've felt I missed out on from this past generation. But it's OK; one day, I'll buy a broken old PS3, rip the BIOS, and run everything on emulators. :P

I hope DA developers frequent these forums, because they can get some good innovative ideas! I don't know if you saw/heard, but there is a class (though the details are only speculated) called Knight Enchanter that has to do with creating energy swords(?) and that may be a step in the right direction for mages that they can develop from.


They do. They don't generally respond, but they're listening.

As for KE, I know; it's definitely going to be the spec for my first Inquisitor. KE is picking up where AW left off in DA:O. I chose the name Arcane Warrior in my class design scheme, though, because the Arcane Warrior name suits the Arcane spell tree I gave it.

#22
Realmzmaster

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Actually, KOA (KIngdoms of Amalur) sold decently with about 2 million copies sold. The problem was that 38 Studios was poorly ran at the top levels starting with Curt Schilling who simply would not listen to sound advice. 38 Studios was creating a MMO at the same time as KOA which Schilling thought would be a big money maker. The state of Rhode Island loaned 38 Studios 75 million dollars. The idea being  that 38 Studios would generate jobs and revenues for the state. Kingdoms of Amalur would have to sell far more copies than it did to keep the doors open given that the MMO project was not ready.

 

The studio sunk too much money into the MMO project coupled with the lavish spending of Schilling on offices and other equipment spelled the end of 38 Studios and Big Huge Games. All properties are owned by Rhode Island. The state is selling everything it can to recoup some of the taxpayers money.

 

KOA was successful enough that a sequel was in the works, but no buyer can forth to buy the rights to the MMO or KOA. 

http://www.gamespot....l/1100-6416719/

 

http://www.ign.com/a...nearly-happened

 

A sad state of affairs.

 

Many gamers may grouse and complain about the suits and bean counters, but this is what happens when the financial side of the business is inot given proper consideration.

 

I found the destiny system in KOA to be very nice. The game was good. I doubt seriously that you will see DA games going away from the class system. A new IP from Bioware perhaps.

 

I would like to see expand specilaizations or classes in DA.


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#23
rocsage

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makes sense.

Upon knowing that Duncan has a shield for use, I simply went "wtf..."

on the other hand, why should access to magic preclude someone from...well, access to human activities such as blocking, parrying, using intricate swordplay or exercising?

Even Finn $%@#$ %$ %$$$, Esquire, essentially a recluse mage, can do exercises.

Why can't mages work explosives, traps, etc?

Just some questions to explore a purely hypothetical, I guess; if you respond with "gameplay balance", I understand and agree - because if mages have access to everything, my question would then be "then how would the magically inept be equal to mages in terms of overall capacity?"



#24
Gamemako

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Why can't mages work explosives, traps, etc?
Just some questions to explore a purely hypothetical, I guess; if you respond with "gameplay balance", I understand and agree - because if mages have access to everything, my question would then be "then how would the magically inept be equal to mages in terms of overall capacity?"


We already deal with mages in gameplay by ignoring their power anyway. Mages in lore are vastly more powerful than fighters. Doesn't make for the best gameplay if you respect that. In any case, it makes sense that mages and non-mages would be have differently in battle regardless. A rogue would use a bomb, but why would a mage when an explosion can come from his fingertips? Even filling the same roles with the same weapons, there's a distinction in method that serves gameplay very well.

If you wanted to strip things down to the very simplest possible terms for implementation and achieve parity on a level that is somewhat undesirable, you could just use the same weapon sets for everyone except archer and battlemage (being the two ranged basic options), then apply W&S to Arcane Warrior, two-handed to Knight Enchanter, and DW to Illusionist. That would mean no new weapons at all. You could apply many things equally: Tremor or War Cry for PBAoE knockdown on non-mage, Mind Blast for PBAoE knockdown on mage. Shield Defense? Arcane Shield. Stonewall? Rock Armor. Scatter? Earthquake or Cone of Cold. You can play that game all day and reduce mage vs. non-mage to aesthetics if you really want. I wouldn't do it that way myself, but you could.

#25
Sylvius the Mad

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Yeah, KoA was terribly underappreciated. The Destiny system was appropriately versatile and the skills were pretty decent all told. Combat system couldn't always make the best of it, but it was a great first attempt with enough positives to overlook the flaws. Could have used some improvements to difficulty as well.

And yet, the game didn't sell well and took everyone involved down with it.

38 Studios was done in less by KoA and more by the shockingly undercapitalised MMO they were making (in the Amalur universe).