106 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

I am not actually sure what he meant when he said that and I can't quite remember the contect. He could have been hinting at the fact that she believed in some sort of god or gods. He could have meant that it was impossible to be an atheist in Thedas because the old gods do exist but then are they actually what we would consider gods?  It also could just be a result of how he defines atheism. From what I remember Morrigan is not a gnostic atheist she just believes it is unreasonable to assume the maker exists just because the world exists. Some people only view gnostic atheists as atheists and consider agnostic atheists to be agnostic despite the fact that most atheists when pushed would admit to being agnostic atheists.

 

The Old Gods aren't necessarily gods, however; even the scholars in-game speculate that perhaps they were simply ancient dragons. According to Sister Mary, "Scholars assume that the Old Gods must indeed have been real at one point, but most agree that they were likely actual dragons - ancient high dragons of a magnitude not known today, and impressive enough to frighten ancient peoples into worshipping them. Some even claim that these dragons slumber as a form of hibernation, not as a result of the Maker's wrath."

 

It's not as though Dragon Age is the same as the Elder Scrolls, where the Aedra and Daedra exist beyond a shadow of a doubt. As for Thedas having no atheists or agnostics, I don't see how that's even the case when Aveline states she doesn't even know if the Maker exists, the culturally Andrastian protagonist can express that he (or she) doesn't believe in the Maker, and Leliana seems to understand the atheist arguments made by Morrigan without facing any difficult wrapping her head around the idea that someone doesn't believe in a god or a higher power.

 

Technically they are not, they are vashoth but that's just how the Qunari see it. To the rest of Thedas they are qunari and while that might be because of ignorance it's still how they are viewed by most people, generally what something is known as is what something is called. If this was the real world there would be no lore or book that dictated what a certain group of organisms should be called. 

 

I have no idea what went on with the WOT seeing as it is the writers who wrote that and they are the one's who made the point that Kossith was not the correct term. 

 

Some developers have used the term 'kossith' as well, although I know it really bothers some developers to see the term used by fans.

[Samahl]

Morrigan isn't atheist though. She believes in the Maker and Andraste; she just doesn't give to sh!ts about them.

Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?
Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

[OctagonalSquare]

Morrigan isn't atheist though. She believes in the Maker and Andraste; she just doesn't give to sh!ts about them.

Doesn't she explicitly say she does not believe in a higher power?

 

 

But back to the qunari vs. kossith clusterfuck, I have an idea. How about we refer to them as giants? In Origins, when asked, "What's a qunari?" the player can explain them as "a race of bronze-skinned giants." AFAIK, there is no other race in Thedas referred to as such, so it wouldn't cause much confusion or arguments.

[LobselVith8]

Then she goes on to say that the Warden could rival the Maker if he keeps the Anvil of the Void. She was trolling Leliana while playing devil's advocate.

 

That's not so much Morrigan saying she believes in the Maker as much as her stating how godly the Anvil is, as it can provide tremendous power to the Warden and his cause.

[Samahl]

Then she goes on to say that the Warden could rival the Maker if he keeps the Anvil of the Void. She was trolling Leliana while playing devil's advocate.

Why is her word more reliable when she's talking about the Anvil (in a way that could easily be figurative/hyperbolic), but not when she explicitly states disbelief while talking to Leliana?

[Samahl]

Because she's a troll and the Maker and Andraste pushes Leliana's buttons.

So unsubstantiated cherrypicking then. Gotcha.

[mikeymoonshine]

The Old Gods aren't necessarily gods, however; even the scholars in-game speculate that perhaps they were simply ancient dragons. According to Sister Mary, "Scholars assume that the Old Gods must indeed have been real at one point, but most agree that they were likely actual dragons - ancient high dragons of a magnitude not known today, and impressive enough to frighten ancient peoples into worshipping them. Some even claim that these dragons slumber as a form of hibernation, not as a result of the Maker's wrath."

 

It's not as though Dragon Age is the same as the Elder Scrolls, where the Aedra and Daedra exist beyond a shadow of a doubt. As for Thedas having no atheists or agnostics, I don't see how that's even the case when Aveline states she doesn't even know if the Maker exists, the culturally Andrastian protagonist can express that he (or she) doesn't believe in the Maker, and Leliana seems to understand the atheist arguments made by Morrigan without facing any difficult wrapping her head around the idea that someone doesn't believe in a god or a higher power.

 

Well it's how you define "god" in itself. Not every god that his been worshiped at one point or another is a supreme all powerful creator. Some are just very powerful entities with power over the world and over mortals. The old gods are considered gods by some and I guess it would depend on what is and isn't true about them and on how you define "god". 

 

Of course spiritualists can still be atheists because not all supernatural beings that some people believe in are gods. So it's a complex issue. 

 

I didn't say agnostics don't exist in Thedas I said some view agnostic atheists as not actually atheists. In my view this in incorrect because belief and knowledge are different things, you are an atheist if you lack belief but that doesn't mean you claim to know there is no god. Not everyone shares my opinion on that though. 

 

I would have thought Morrigan was an atheist but it really depends on how you look at it. 

 

 

Some developers have used the term 'kossith' as well, although I know it really bothers some developers to see the term used by fans.

 

My point was it was the writers (David, Mary ect) who objected to the term Kossith being used but it was also the writing team who wrote WOT. They are the one's who should know but they have been very confusing on the issue Other devs shouldn't be expected to know everything about the lore.

[LobselVith8]

Because she's a troll and the Maker and Andraste pushes Leliana's buttons. 

 

Considering who raised Morrigan, and her general comments about the Andrastian faith even when Leliana isn't part of the moiety crew, I'm not so sure about that. But I guess we can agree to disagree.

 

As for the general topic, I'm curious how the Vashoth might be able to view himself (depending on the range of player options available).

[Samahl]

Don't like invoking it, but word of Gaider says I'm right.
 
*watch this get flipped on me badly*

Are you talking about when Morrigan was said not to be an atheist? Andrastianism isn't the only religion in Thedas.

Alternately, it could've been confusion about what the term "atheist" really means. As Mikey explained above, many people view agnosticism and atheism as mutually exclusive. They aren't, because gnosticism is separate from theism. I'm an agnostic atheist, for instance.

[LobselVith8]

Recognition by the Triumvirate would be nice. If you're playing a Vashoth that's Qun sympathetic.

 

Perhaps through Iron Bull, I suppose, or some other Qunari group the Vashoth might run across. I wonder how the Qunari, in general, will react to a Vashoth becoming politically and militarily powerful in Thedas; perhaps it depends on the values and views of the protagonist. It's a shame we know so little about the Vashoth culture; it's like a blank state at this point.

[tmp7704]

Not necessarily. Qunari don't really care about race distinction, so they don't distinguish their race by any sort of label.

I'd imagine they at least recognize different species and have words for them, if just because otherwise that runs into risk of making their breeding procedures inefficient and prone to hilarity...

[Cat Fancy]

I am not actually sure what he meant when he said that and I can't quite remember the contect. He could have been hinting at the fact that she believed in some sort of god or gods. He could have meant that it was impossible to be an atheist in Thedas because the old gods do exist but then are they actually what we would consider gods?  It also could just be a result of how he defines atheism. From what I remember Morrigan is not a gnostic atheist she just believes it is unreasonable to assume the maker exists just because the world exists. Some people only view gnostic atheists as atheists and consider agnostic atheists to be agnostic despite the fact that most atheists when pushed would admit to being agnostic atheists. 

 

So it really depends what he meant by that tbh. 

 

...

 

I have no idea what went on with the WOT seeing as it is the writers who wrote that and they are the one's who made the point that Kossith was not the correct term. 

 

Here is a tweet where Gaider says that the Qunari and Morrigan aren't atheists. Here is a post he made in a later thread where he clarified what he meant a bit. He was referring to atheism as some kind of anti-clerical political position, which is not what I'm talking about when I identify someone as an atheist. The Qunari are described as godless in WoT and seem to be as anti-clerical as communist Albania, so I'm not sure what he means when he says they aren't atheists. Maybe just that it's just a contemporary term that doesn't exist in fake medieval Thedas, like "bisexual" or "Stalinism," but whatever, it's bad luck to speculate about this, I'm sure. Does anyone know if he (or another developer, like Mary Kirby) talks about Qunari r/atheism further?

 

As I said, I like when devs weigh in on topics, but they're dead to me when it comes to actually interpreting their published work. All they've said about the word "kossith" on the boards doesn't mean nearly as much as the fact that they use it as a racial term several times in World of Thedas.

 

And if they ever publish something which officially contradicts this, it will still change nothing for me, because I am a true zealot and burn with a righteous passion to keep calling them "kossith."

 

kooooooooooooossiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiith

 

**** that was good

[LobselVith8]

Here is a tweet where Gaider says that the Qunari and Morrigan aren't atheists. Here is a post he made in a later thread where he clarified what he meant a bit. He was referring to atheism as some kind of anti-clerical political position, which is not what I'm talking about when I identify someone as an atheist. The Qunari are described as godless in WoT and seem to be as anti-clerical as communist Albania, so I'm not sure what he means when he says they aren't atheists. Maybe just that it's just a contemporary term that doesn't exist in fake medieval Thedas, like "bisexual" or "Stalinism," but whatever, it's bad luck to speculate about this, I'm sure. Does anyone know if he (or another developer, like Mary Kirby) talks about Qunari r/atheism further?

 

As I said, I like when devs weigh in on topics, but they're dead to me when it comes to actually interpreting their published work. All they've said about the word "kossith" on the boards doesn't mean nearly as much as the fact that they use it several times in World of Thedas.

 

And if they ever publish something which officially contradicts this, it will still change nothing, because I am a true zealot and burn with a righteous passion to keep calling them "kossith."

 

kooooooooooooossiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiith

 

**** that was good

 

I will continue to be perplexed at the idea that Gaider thought that atheism was associated with "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion".

[mikeymoonshine]

Here is a tweet where Gaider says that the Qunari and Morrigan aren't atheists. Here is a post he made in a later thread where he clarified what he meant a bit. He was referring to atheism as some kind of anti-clerical political position, which is not what I'm talking about when I identify someone as an atheist. The Qunari are described as godless in WoT and seem to be as anti-clerical as communist Albania, so I'm not sure what he means when he says they aren't atheists. Maybe just that it's just a contemporary term that doesn't exist in fake medieval Thedas, like "bisexual" or "Stalinism," but whatever, it's bad luck to speculate about this, I'm sure. Does anyone know if he (or another developer, like Mary Kirby) talks about Qunari r/atheism further?

 

As I said, I like when devs weigh in on topics, but they're dead to me when it comes to actually interpreting their published work. All they've said about the word "kossith" on the boards doesn't mean nearly as much as the fact that they use it as a racial term several times in World of Thedas.

 

And if they ever publish something which officially contradicts this, it will still change nothing for me, because I am a true zealot and burn with a righteous passion to keep calling them "kossith."

 

kooooooooooooossiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiith

 

**** that was good

 

Ah ok, thanks for clearing that up. To be fair even the atheist community (if you can call it a community) does not agree on the definition of atheism. American Atheists defines atheism this way.

"Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds."   

 

That's certainly not how I define atheism. The Qun is kinda like budhims or some forms spiritualism in that it is a godless religion. The Qunari and Morrigan seem to me to either be atheists or as close to atheist and you can get in Thedas. 

 

and yeah they have been very confusing on the Qunari v Kossith thing.  At this stage you may as well call em what you like because there are people who will defiantly call them what they think the correct term is on either side. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Damn....I'm afraid I must admit you make a very good point.  But then....shouldn't the other races have come up with a term for THEIR race by now?

They did. It is: Qunari. When the Qunari arrived, they said "We are the Qunari", and the Thedosian said "Oh, I guess they mean their people". And it just kind of stuck since then.

[Nefla]

Ugh not this crap again. I thought we were done with this like 6 months ago

[TheJediSaint]

Ugh not this crap again. I thought we were done with this like 6 months ago

The forums are nothing if not cyclical.

[Chron0id]

Oh God, how did this turn into a discussion about atheism?   This thread is going places!  And by places I mean directly into the storm!

[TheJediSaint]

Oh God, how did this turn into a discussion about atheism?   This thread is going places!  And by places I mean directly into the storm!

No, a storm is interesting.  Where this thread is going is utterly banal.

[LobselVith8]

Oh God, how did this turn into a discussion about atheism?   This thread is going places!  And by places I mean directly into the storm!

 

The discussion has remained civil so far, so I don't see the problem. It's even possible the Vashoth protagonist may not believe in a god or a higher power since the main character was never introduced to the Qun, so it may be a possible option for the character.