the way i see it, it seems that people use Kossith to denote the race itself.
this is neither right nor wrong.
In game it would make much sense to use the term kossith
but from an outsider looking in, it just makes it easier to refer to Qunari the race as Kossith.
this way it clears up any confusion.
I've no idea why people jump down other people throats for using the term Kossith if its easier for a person to use the term Kossith and you understand what they are referring to whats the problem?
Going by that article from David Gaider it seems that if you referred to a modern qunari as "kossith", you'd generally just get blank stares as most of them don't even know the term.
But the idea of having words other than "qunari" to refer to qunari race even if that's not the word the qunari themselves might use... doesn't feel like something objectionable to me -- not when people bring up example of Jewish people and it doesn't even register they're using English term instead of the actual Hebrew word that's quite different. And odds are pretty good that similarly the qunari word for say, "elf" isn't exactly "elf", etc. I think they'd be reasonable enough to recognize that.
People have often used "Jewish" as an example before, but I prefer to look at what we're trying to define and try to work out how to take it to it's logical extreme, then see if it still holds up?
Using Kossith to describe the grey skinned race currently known as Qunari doesn't work, since Kossith was the word for their former society or nation, something that no longer exists in any meaningful way.
For a good analogy, let's use the archaic term "Aengli", used to describe some of the tribes living in post-Roman Britain and let's see if could make sense to describe a modern Englishman. I mean, the word means "English" and the country is still called England, so what's the fuss about using it?
Well, let us suppose we have a hypothetical Englishman, who was born in England and who self-identifies as English, but who's grandparents arrived in England from Jamaica in the 1970s? While this person is obviously English without question, could you then still use the word "Aengli" for them and have it make sense?
Well, no. You're trying to argue that we can use an historical term for an Anglo-Saxon tribesman living in post-Roman England to describe an Englishman of Afro-Carribbean descent; two groups that are historically, geographically and ethnically unrelated to each other in an incredibly obvious way?
And even if we were to take someone who (improbably) could claim direct descent from the "Aengli" people, they still couldn't be accurately described as "Aengli" either, because they'd still be seperated by the gulf of over a thousand years from a way of life that they simply have no knowledge of?
This is essentially no different than trying to use Kossith to describe a modern grey-skinned member of the race now known as Qunari. The word, even if it may have been accurate in the past, simply has no meaning or relevance to the horned race anymore because the Kossith society, traditions and people have been lost to the passage of time.
If by some small chance we ever discovered there were actually some remnants of that society still living apart from the rest of their race and still practising the old ways (much like the Chasind and Avvars are compared to the modern day Fereldans), then these people would indeed be Kossith. But aside from that, the word should pretty much be consigned to the history books where it belongs.
Kossith is an archaic term. No one in Thedas uses it.
This.
It would be the equivalent of calling a person from modern France a Gaul.
My problem with the whole "the race is qunari" bit stems from Maraas saying "I am no Qunari. Qunari are of the Qun, I am Tal Vashoth." Keep in mind, that in the middle of that bit, Hawke responds with "Well, you're no dwarf". So either Maraas is "unable to grasp 3rd grade context clues" or he doesn't think of his race as Qunari, but Tal-Vashoth.
That whole bit means that there is no such thing as race to the Qunari. Or, more specifically, one's religion is one's race. At least to those who are brought up with the Qun...
It makes sense for everyone in Thedas to call any tall, horned, grey-skinned people Qunari. They don't know of any other word, and they all might as well be the same to the common folk(and even to most educated ones). But for a player to call those who do not follow the Qun(the Tal-Vashoth and Vashoth) "kossith" show's they are differentiating a specific tall, horned, grey-skinned individual who is not affiliated with the Qunari. This is especially so for those kossith who are considered "Vashoth" by the Qunari. They are incapable of identify themselves as Vashoth. because they know nothing of the Qun, and thus can't know the word to begin with... And if they call themselves Qunari, they are as ignorant as any human, because they are not of the Qun.
I really genuinely don't understand the controversy over this topic. Some people on the forums like to use the word qunari to refer to the race. Some like to refer to the race as kossith. Both get the point across. Who cares what other people call the race? It's not like you can't use context clues to figure it out. If I say, I'm going to play as a qunari in DA: I, it's pretty obvious that I'm referring to the race. I don't need someone coming in and saying, "Well actually, you are playing as a Vashoth and can't be Qunari......" The same way that someone who says, "I'm going to play as a kossith in DA: I" doesn't need someone coming in and saying, "Well actually, the kossith are long gone so you can't play as a member of that culture....." It feels petty when people do this. If you need a qualifier, ask and move on. Don't ask and then go, "SEE!?! It's sooooo confusing and that's why need a separate term!!!1!" Cuz, it's not that confusing. Use whatever term you like and I will do so as well. Problem solved.
We don't actually know what meaning the term had for the qunari themselves back then, per Mr.Gaider's word:Using Kossith to describe the grey skinned race currently known as Qunari doesn't work, since Kossith was the word for their former society or nation, something that no longer exists in any meaningful way.
It may refer to the actual name of the race, or the name of the culture from which the current-day Qunari hail, it’s really unknown as the Qunari have discarded the term completely.
Let people use “Kossith”. If you know enough to argue its usage, then you know what they meant, so stop being so anal.
Let people use “Qunari”, and don’t try to school them on how non-specific that is unless you happen to be Qunari yourself and the incorrect usage of all these terms is really confusing for you. If so, then you get a pass.
If I need to use a word that is more specific than just Qunari, I'd use Oxmen. In-universe it isn't considered archaic like Kossith, and out-of-universe I don't have to worry about fictional characters being insulted by a potentially offensive exonym. And unlike the word Kossith, everyone knows who you are talking about.
And unlike the word Kossith, everyone knows who you are talking about.
Why does everyone keep saying the Qun is a religion? It is more a philosophy, an idealogy, way of life, or Code of Honor. They do not have any diety's that have been identified and based off of how they act socially, it doesn't seem as if the Viddathari (convert to the Qun) are told to worship anything, but to accept the way of life of the Qun. They do have a concept of the Fade, as they do know the dangers of Demons and magic. The Qunari however build themselves up technilogically rather than rely on magic, so they are not as developed and are not curious about the Fade (since they fear possession)
I wouldn't presume that -- until this thread and this very post of yours happened and caused me to run a search, I didn't even remember "oxmen" was used at any point in the game.
While the word Oxmen isn't commonly used throughout the series either, it is used more often than the word Kossith. You can find the word Oxmen in codex entries and in-game dialogue while Kossith only appears in the World of Thedas. Oxmen is by far the more familiar term since every DA fan has played at least one DA game, while not every DA fan owns the World of Thedas.
Oxmen is by far the more familiar term since every DA fan has played at least one DA game, while not every DA fan owns the World of Thedas.
I also always use "Viking" to refer to Scandinavian people... It just seems so much easier, and really they USED to be Vikings the lot of them, so it isn't incorrect to use..... Right?
That's a fair estimation. I commented on unfamiliarity with "oxmen" as personal experience, but that's hardly representative so overall it's likely you're right. Still, I'm going to treat it like the "knife ears" i.e. choose not to use it. "Qunari" or "qunari race" where extra clarification is needed feels like the most practical approach at this point.While the word Oxmen isn't commonly used throughout the series either, it is used more often than the word Kossith. You can find the word Oxmen in codex entries and in-game dialogue while Kossith only appears in the World of Thedas. Oxmen is by far the more familiar term since every DA fan has played at least one DA game, while not every DA fan owns the World of Thedas.
Given this particular word was coined/revived* in English specifically to refer to medieval Norsemen, as far as ironical analogies go that's a bit of a miss. If on the other hand "Viking" in English was given broader meaning of "Scandinavian" without that specific period clause, it'd be indeed absolutely correct to use it like that.I also always use "Viking" to refer to Scandinavian people... It just seems so much easier, and really they USED to be Vikings the lot of them, so it isn't incorrect to use..... Right?
I really genuinely don't understand the controversy over this topic. Some people on the forums like to use the word qunari to refer to the race. Some like to refer to the race as kossith. Both get the point across. Who cares what other people call the race? It's not like you can't use context clues to figure it out. If I say, I'm going to play as a qunari in DA: I, it's pretty obvious that I'm referring to the race. I don't need someone coming in and saying, "Well actually, you are playing as a Vashoth and can't be Qunari......" The same way that someone who says, "I'm going to play as a kossith in DA: I" doesn't need someone coming in and saying, "Well actually, the kossith are long gone so you can't play as a member of that culture....." It feels petty when people do this. If you need a qualifier, ask and move on. Don't ask and then go, "SEE!?! It's sooooo confusing and that's why need a separate term!!!1!" Cuz, it's not that confusing. Use whatever term you like and I will do so as well. Problem solved.
In fairness, I see this argument put forth quite often from people who defend the use of "Kossith", that it doesn't matter what word you use because fans will still know what you mean... except if we then accept that argument as valid, what's preventing you from using "Qunari" like everyone else?
If you're accepting that Kossith is the wrong word because it's archaic, then why is Qunari, which is also technically wrong as well, less acceptable for use?
Do not get me wrong, I do agree with the argument that the Qunari race probably should have been given a clearly defined name, but I doubt Bioware are about to do that because it'll simply throw yet another name into the blender and we'll end up with a three-way-clusterfrack of people arguing over pointless minutiae.
Personally, as it stands, I'd say that "Vashoth" is probably the more accurate name for their race as it simply means "Grey Ones" in their language, describing the race accurately with absolutely no association to the Qun or ancient societies whatsoever?
But I'm fine with the devs sticking to Qunari, since most in-verse Thedosians tend to assume that all members of that race follow the Qun anyway?
Given this particular word was coined/revived* in English specifically to refer to medieval Norsemen, as far as ironical analogies go that's a bit of a miss. If on the other hand "Viking" in English was given broader meaning of "Scandinavian" without that specific period clause, it'd be indeed absolutely correct to use it like that.
*) it's a pretty young word, only 200 years old or so. The old Anglo-Saxon word for the Norsemen was supposedly Dene i.e. Danes. So in a way, funnily enough you do call some of the Scandinavians "Vikings". And probably don't even realize that
No... You DON'T call ANY of the current Scandinavian people Vikings.... That was the point... You may once upon a time have called them that (I know they never did so themselves), but to keep doing it would be inaccurate. Just like with Kossith.
You learn something new day, I know I did.
In fairness, I see this argument put forth quite often from people who defend the use of "Kossith", that it doesn't matter what word you use because fans will still know what you mean... except if we then accept that argument as valid, what's preventing you from using "Qunari" like everyone else?
If you're accepting that Kossith is the wrong word because it's archaic, then why is Qunari, which is also technically wrong as well, less acceptable for use?
Do not get me wrong, I do agree with the argument that the Qunari race probably should have been given a clearly defined name, but I doubt Bioware are about to do that because it'll simply throw yet another name into the blender and we'll end up with a three-way-clusterfrack of people arguing over pointless minutiae.
Personally, as it stands, I'd say that "Vashoth" is probably the more accurate name for their race as it simply means "Grey Ones" in their language, describing the race accurately with absolutely no association to the Qun or ancient societies whatsoever?
But I'm fine with the devs sticking to Qunari, since most in-verse Thedosians tend to assume that all members of that race follow the Qun anyway?
To be honest, I've never used the word kossith myself. I don't find the term qunari to be confusing at all and, frankly, I tend to think that the people who do say it's "confusing" are exaggerating it to make a point. I just hate the fact that we can't have a conversation about qunari without it devolving into a semantic argument. I love the fact that the race is so different than the other races that they don't even have a name for their species because of the way their philosophy is so ingrained in their worldview. It's fascinating, but unfortunately, that is lost on people who just need there to be a unique name. And, just as frustrating are the people who insist that because kossith isn't in the game, they have to correct anyone who uses the term. I don't like the term (and find it to be inaccurate, as well as obscure, so I don't see how it's any better.....), but if other people want to use it, I'd rather accept that and engage in the actual conversation than discuss 'choice of wording' again. That's just how I see it.
To be honest, I've never used the word kossith myself. I don't find the term qunari to be confusing at all and, frankly, I tend to think that the people who do say it's "confusing" are exaggerating it to make a point. I just hate the fact that we can't have a conversation about qunari without it devolving into a semantic argument.
I completely agree, it's a pain that we have to constantly have people having the same old argument. But I disagree that people correcting are doing it simply to be pedantic, I think they're simply frustrated that most people are aware of the naming controversy by this point, so see anyone who keep using Kossith as doing it to intentionally annoy others and get a rise out of them.
It'd be like if I pointed to an obscure reference in the Mass Effect codex (which actually exists in the game, unlike Kossith), that suggests that the Mass Relays were once known as "Phase Gates" during the development of the game, then started using that as a reason to stop calling them Mass Relays?
The devs have already given us the correct term and the one that they prefer, so what really is the point of people bickering?
And before someone counters that shouldn't people then stop complaining about say, George Lucas' infamous changes to Star Wars as being fine given that he was also a creator also playing with his sandbox, unlike him, Bioware tends to want to upsetting fans and avoid breaking any pre-established lore or trying to change terminology that'd been around for years (or decades in the case of Star Wars).
It's not that hard to see the parallels in Lucas' insistence on using "laser sword" for Lightsabers (much to the frustration of the fans), to people arguing "Kossith" over Qunari, (much to the frustration of the devs).
(I still prefer to think that Qunari would take one look at this debate and shake their heads in annoyance. This is the sort of chaos from bas that got the Arishok so annoyed that he eventually decided to invade Kirkwall simply to try to end the madness around him!)
Personally, as it stands, I'd say that "Vashoth" is probably the more accurate name for their race as it simply means "Grey Ones" in their language, describing the race accurately with absolutely no association to the Qun or ancient societies whatsoever?
Well that just brings up the whole Vashoth argument though.
Vashoth isn't the name for the Qunari race either because there isn't one. (I know that you know there isn't one btw).
Before Inquisition it was said that Vashoth was what they called those who had left the qun and that it sort of means Qunari without the Qun. Tal-Vashoth is a name many of those Vashoth give themselves to show their oposition to the Qun. It's not a name given to them by the Qunari but we know they do recognise it because virtually every Qunari we have met in game refers to them as Tal-Vashoth.
I guess it would make sense as a racial term because it does literally mean grey one. I guess the qunari would have viewed one of their race who leaves the Qun as sort of being nothing more than grey or something and most Qunari are racially qunari. It's not actually specific to the race though and other races who leave the Qun would also be Vashoth or Tal-Vashoth.
Then we find out that the qunari Inquisitor is Vashoth and was never part of the Qun leading many to think the word is a term for those of the qunari race who were born outside of the Qun. I'm not sure why the Qunquzitor is considered Vashoth by the Qunari but I think it's probably just because they would view them as connected to the qun or assume a previous connection because of his/her race. Maybe it will come up in game.
So anyway, what I am saying is Vashoth doesn't work either because there would be similar confusion over it. I don't think there is going to be a non confusing way to refer to the people of the Qun racially or otherwise and that's kind of fun in my opinion.
Sorry if this has been mentioned (my memory is utter ****), but I just realized something -- "Qunari" is a lot like "Prothean".
"Qunari" can refer to both the race of giants and followers of the Qun of any race. "Prothean" refers to both the species of four-eyed alien and the citizens of the Prothean Empire of any species.
Calling someone an oxman is a lot less of a slur than falsely calling them qunari.
Perhaps I wasn't too clear -- when you use word "Dane" to refer to modern Danes, you use word which in the past used to mean what "Vikings" means today. That's just the extra fun layer(s) the languages can bring when you remember they routinely evolve, which makes this whole "kossith/qunari" discussion and the analogies made rather silly and limited.No... You DON'T call ANY of the current Scandinavian people Vikings.... That was the point... You may once upon a time have called them that (I know they never did so themselves), but to keep doing it would be inaccurate. Just like with Kossith.
Calling them oxmen carries connotation of likening them to mindless animals. What exact slur is there in calling them 'qunari'?Calling someone an oxman is a lot less of a slur than falsely calling them qunari.
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