106 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Perhaps I wasn't too clear -- when you use word "Dane" to refer to modern Danes, you use word which in the past used to mean what "Vikings" means today. That's just the extra fun layer(s) the languages can bring when you remember they routinely evolve, which makes this whole "kossith/qunari" discussion and the analogies made rather silly and limited.

To reiterate: what Kossith used to mean (especially in a fictional world) is of secondary importance to modern English speakers. If these speakers decide to associate the term specifically with the horned giant race of Thedas, and this interpretation gets popular enough to be widely understood, then the word gains this (extra) meaning. And to object to that on the grounds the word used to mean something else, you may as well object to the Danes being called Danes.

The thing is that "Dane" always, and stil does, refer to the people living on the Danish isles. It is a little anachronistic, but that doesn't matter. Kossith is an entirely differnet people. It would be like refering to people of the Chinese Shang dynasty as Xia people. It is WRONG even if people are ignorant enough to accept it.

[Wulfram]

Calling them oxmen carries connotation of likening them to mindless animals. What exact slur is there in calling them 'qunari'?

edit: to use imperfect analogy again, the idea calling someone qunari is 'false' and a slur when they don't follow the Qun is not unlike the idea it's false and a slur to refer to a Jewish atheist as a Jew.

 

It's like calling someone a communist because their parents came from Russia.  Or a nazi because they came from Germany.

 

Judaism is different because it isn't evil.  And also because the religion is traditionally tied to a particular people, whereas the Qun is very much intended to embrace all thinking beings.

 

Oxman simply describes their physical traits

[Sifr]

Oxman simply describes their physical traits

 

Not to be pedantic...

 

_{(Ah, who am I kidding, this entire thread is because we're being pedantic, so I might as well admit it?)}

 

Wouldn't ox-men being equally as much of a misnomer, since they're obviously have no bovine features whatsoever aside from horns, which are shared by many other creatures in Thedas, from Dragons to Bronto to Halla? If they were true ox-men, then shouldn't they're look more like minotaurs? All told, it's a rather flawed comparison for anyone to derive a name from?

 

While "Ox-man" is a lore-friendly word, the usage is clearly as much of a racial slur as "Knife-ear" for an Elf or "Dog-Lord" for a Fereldan.

 

The argument that it's fine because we're talking about fictional characters doesn't sit well with me, because isn't that akin to saying that one can use racist terminology behind closed doors, since the people you are being offensive towards aren't able to hear you? Hopefully no-one would argue that such a thing would ever be acceptable, whether it takes place in our world or somewhere like Thedas?

 

Regardless, even if referring to someone not following the Qun as Qunari isn't accurate, it's at least not being used in a derogatory fashion?

 

[Wulfram]

All I can say is that if I were an ex-Qunari qunari, I'm pretty sure I'd rather be called an Oxman.  And I'm pretty sure the actual Qunari couldn't really care less what the things call their race.

[Sifr]

True, I suppose there is a double standard here given their legendary rudeness to outsiders!

[tmp7704]

The thing is that "Dane" always, and stil does, refer to the people living on the Danish isles.

No, not always, that's the actual point -- in the past the word used to mean something quite broader than specifically people living on the Danish isles. Namely, "the Norsemen" (in the same sense we use "Viking" today) It's rough equivalent of modern "Scandinavians" at some point in time becoming a word strictly for say, Norwegians and no other nation(s) of the region.

Kossith is an entirely differnet people.

We don't even know if it's "entirely different people" because by Word of Gaider we don't know whether the word used to refer to the race itself, the culture of that race or whatever when used originally. But in any case this word has since gained another meaning, and like Gaider has noted everyone who takes time to object to it is quite aware of that.

The Shang/Xia analogy would only work as analogy here if "Xia" had also developed into English word meaning "zhonghua minzu" in general. At which point using it to refer to said "Chinese race" and not specifically to the Xia dynasty would be in no way wrong, even if you had people going "Stahp calling them Xia, that used to be old dynasty!".

[EmperorSahlertz]

No, not always, that's the actual point -- in the past the word used to mean something quite broader than specifically people living on the Danish isles. Namely, "the Norsemen" (in the same sense we use "Viking" today) It's rough equivalent of modern "Scandinavians" at some point in time becoming a word strictly for say, Norwegians and no other nation(s) of the region.

 

That is untrue. Dane has been used to specifically refer to the germanic tribe that settled in what comprises mdern Denmark. Swede and Norse was used to refer to the germanic tribes that settled in Sweden and Norway accordingly. "Norseman" is the closest equivalent to modern Scandinavian.
 

 

We don't even know if it's "entirely different people" because by Word of Gaider we don't know whether the word used to refer to the race itself, the culture of that race or whatever when used originally. But in any case this word has since gained another meaning, and like Gaider has noted everyone who takes time to object to it is quite aware of that.

The Shang/Xia analogy would only work as analogy here if "Xia" had also developed into English word meaning "zhonghua minzu" in general. At which point using it to refer to said "Chinese race" and not specifically to the Xia dynasty would be in no way wrong, even if you had people going "Stahp calling them Xia, that used to be old dynasty!".

Obviously Kossith is NOT the same as Qunari, since Qunari does not use the term any more. Wether they in ancient times used the word Kossith to refer to the race or not, is entirely irrelevant, because it is NOT the name of the race, or the people, any more.