93 réponses à ce sujet

[TheChris92]

I see, so when men are being objectified, it must be a joke or doesn't happen? That's very interesting perspective there. Whatever flow your boat, I guess. I know about the power fantasy so no need to explain it to me. Since male is the primary consumers for video games for a long time, of course there would be more fanservice of women and power fantasy for the men; however, men can and have been objectified and sometimes it's not even about the power fantasy. There is an element of it but simply dismiss it entirely as non-existence is just close-minded. While it's true that women have been objectified more, there is an element of what define as sexy on according to gender norm. I find men in power fantasy actually a lot more attractive than scantily dressed men while women in sexy costume is more about look. Gender roles often created a standard of sexy in a lot of people in which sexy in a man is more about power and masculinity while sexy in a woman is more related to their femininity and look. Biologically speaking, males are more visual, so fanservice for them would be more about the look, the porn industry wouldn't survive without them, while women are more on the cognitive and emotional so fanservice or materials gear toward them are more storytelling like yaoi (porn with plot and romantic setting) or Twilight. I took classes on gender norms at UCLA, so while I may not know everything, I have some basic research knowledge on it. I would rather keep on open minded on the discussion on the topic of gender, but if you think fanservice of males doesn't exist then we have nothing to talk about.

So far I don't see any form of concrete debate on your end here. What you're preaching isn't objecfication, it's some sort of misguided ideal that gender mistreatment is equally shared, and in gaming no less, which isn't true. What you're talking about isn't objectfication at all -- Sexualization and individual attractiveness, what you or someone else, not matter who they might fancy is a different topic, and thus I believe you might misunderstand what is being talked about here. It doesn't aspire to the fact that the deliberate design choices and general marketing is directed towards men -- It is If we are to examine th

ings, and ask -- What kind of character is Kratos being marketed for? He doesn't wear a shirt and is muscular? So is it women? Of course it isn't. Women cover a larger percent of the gaming audience, but they are hardly the target audience, and hence why I pointed out the examples with Levine, or even other recent examples be the case with Remember Me, where publishers threatened to kill of female main character, because they believed gamers wouldn't want to play as a "girly-girl".

Objectification is a term that refers to diminishing a person to a thing, a goal, an objective, something for people to want and crave. Power fantasy is an ideal, it's a compressed collective ideal of the things the audience wants to be, an image to aspire towards. Chris is powerful, he's courageous, heroic and well-build, these are traits that are meant to appeal to the target audience, and putting this example together with the fact that most of the female characters are solely dependent upon their male counterpart to save them it's easy to come to a conclusion on whose the actual focus group here. Not to mention the rather shameless, unzipped catsuits and inappropriate choice of clothing.
Hideo Kojima, for instance, delibaretly sexualize his characters but he doesn't do it at the compromise of any character or independence they might have had. Characters like The Boss aren't a goal, a target, something to strive after, they are just ordinary characters like any other with their own set of ambitions, despite the gender. All of this isn't really that hard to understand

If you want to somehow convince yourself that men are being "mistreated" or "objectified" then that's your prerogative but it doesn't really make it true.

[TheClonesLegacy]

Blah on these gender politics!

[Milan92]

So far I don't see any form of concrete debate on your end here. What you're preaching isn't objecfication, it's some sort of misguided ideal that gender mistreatment is equally shared, and in gaming no less, which isn't true. What you're talking about isn't objectfication at all -- Sexualization and individual attractiveness, what you or someone else, not matter who they might fancy is a different topic, and thus I believe you might misunderstand what is being talked about here. It doesn't aspire to the fact that the deliberate design choices and general marketing is directed towards men -- It is If we are to examine things, and ask -- What kind of character is Kratos being marketed for? He doesn't wear a shirt and is muscular? So is it women? Of course it isn't. Women cover a larger percent of the gaming audience, but they are hardly the target audience, and hence why I pointed out the examples with Levine, or even other recent examples be the case with Remember Me, where publishers threatened to kill of female main character, because they believed gamers wouldn't want to play as a "girly-girl".

Objectification is a term that refers to diminishing a person to a thing, a goal, an objective, something for people to want and crave. Power fantasy is an ideal, it's a compressed collective ideal of the things the audience wants to be, an image to aspire towards. Chris is powerful, he's courageous, heroic and well-build, these are traits that are meant to appeal to the target audience, and putting this example together with the fact that most of the female characters are solely dependent upon their male counterpart to save them it's easy to come to a conclusion on whose the actual focus group here.
Hideo Kojima, for instance, delibaretly sexualize his characters but he doesn't do it at the compromise of any character or independence they might have had. Characters like The Boss aren't a goal, a target, something to strive after, they are just ordinary characters like any other with their own set of ambitions, despite the gender. All of this isn't really that hard to understand

 

But then what about Jill? I assume, since she is a protagonist, that she does her own stuff? And that she isn't just standing around with her cleavage waiting to be rescued?

 

Maybe I'm just missing the point right now. But I'm asking nontheless.

[TheChris92]

But then what about Jill? I assume, since she is a protagonist, that she does her own stuff? And that she isn't just standing around with her cleavage waiting to be rescued?
 
Maybe I'm just missing the point right now. But I'm asking nontheless.

Jill spends most of her time being something the male character needs to save in Resident Evil 5 -- In fact, she is Chris' main motivation. In RE3, there's a point where you are forced to play the naive Mercenary bloke to save Jill, and in Resident Evil 1 Jill is heavily dependent on Barry to rescue her a lot. Chris never needs anyone's help in his scenario. Although, I think things like that are worse with recent Resident Evil games, and Jill did retain a somewhat independent spirit in Resident Evil 3, and without irrational choice of clothing.

The main point was that generally, this is how female characters are implemented in most games, but that is not to say all games do it. But it's to show that it exists.

[Milan92]

Jill spends most of her time being something the male character needs to save in Resident Evil 5 -- In fact, she is Chris' main motivation. In RE3, there's a point where you are forced to play the naive Mercenary bloke to save Jill, and in Resident Evil 1 Jill is heavily dependent on Barry to rescue her a lot. Chris never needs anyone's help in his scenario. Although, I think things like that are worse with recent Resident Evil games, and Jill did retain a somewhat independent spirit in Resident Evil 3, and without irrational choice of clothing.

 

Ah, I see!

[TheChris92]

Admittedly, this is why I prefer Silent Hill a bit more. Better story, characters, atmosphere, music, horror etc.

In retrospect, I'm still looking a bit forward to HD re-release. I only pray that Capcom will actually do it properly this time.

[Battlebloodmage]

I never said men are being mistreated, so if you're gonna keep putting words in my mouth, you should may as well move it and start paying rent. I know men are being the privilege class since they're being perceived as the primary consumers of action and violence video games. So far, I don't see any concrete evidence disproving that male fanservice you claim doesn't exist is actually true, but a bunch of your own opinions of what you think is happening which I find untrue. Kratos is a bro game, but so what? I never deny that power fantasy doesn't exist, but some of the games can have both and some games allow male characters to be fan services as well like Fire Emblem Awakening in which you can strip off 2 of the most popular males into their swimtrunks and 2 in a kimono blushing and everything. But that's just power fantasy as well, I assume. In term of social norm, what being portrayed is just perpectuating the idea of what women and men supposed to be. I find power fantasy to be bad as well since it goes a bad unrealistic standard for men just as feminine, damsel in distress is for women. However, it's the norm, men like to be portrayed that way, women's interest in term of social norm is often not geared toward that. Most of the materials geared toward women are about slice of life and romance and relationship while males are about violence. Of course that doesn't mean that's what all men or all women want, but that's what being portrayed as the gender norm in our society. Women play games a lot more now, but that doesn't mean they play the same game or as many plays the same game as the males. The violence games made are geared toward the males because that's what people think the males would want while video games that geared toward women like dressed up games (Like Kim Kadashian game which made a crap tons of money), that's what people believe women would like to play. Of course, the power fantasy is gonna geared toward men because not only that's what developers believe to be their primary consumers but also that's what men like for themselves to be portrayed as. Power fantasy for women is not as common because they are not being perceived as playing "those" types of game or their portrayal in term of social norm wouldn't be a badass cursing hero. If there were to be more fanservice for women and power fantasy, then there need to be more women buying and expressing interested in those games that being perceived as being male only. Otherwise, fan service for women would exist but may not be as numerous as the men or may be both power fantasy and fanservice. Notice that games gear toward women or inclusive of women have plenty of fanservice like staring at Kaidan in the butt, Fire Emblem Awakening with male fanservice, yaoi games. You may not think that fanservice doesn't exist, but it's there, it's there as long as they think females are part of their consumers.

[TheChris92]

I never said men are being mistreated, so if you're gonna keep putting words in my mouth, you should may as well move it and start paying rent. I know men are being the privilege class since they're being perceived as the primary consumers of action and violence video games. So far, I don't see any concrete evidence disproving that male fanservice you claim doesn't exist is actually true, but a bunch of your own opinions of what you think is happening which I find untrue. Kratos is a bro game, but so what? I never deny that power fantasy doesn't exist, but some of the games can have both and some games allow male characters to be fan services as well like Fire Emblem Awakening in which you can strip off 2 of the most popular males into their swimtrunks and 2 in a kimono blushing and everything. But that's just power fantasy as well, I assume. In term of social norm, what being portrayed is just perpectuating the idea of what women and men supposed to be. I find power fantasy to be bad as well since it goes a bad unrealistic standard for men just as feminine, damsel in distress is for women. However, it's the norm, men like to be portrayed that way, women's interest in term of social norm is often not geared toward that. Most of the materials geared toward women are about slice of life and romance and relationship while males are about violence. Of course that doesn't mean that's what all men or all women want, but that's what being portrayed as the gender norm in our society. Women play games a lot more now, but that doesn't mean they play the same game or as many plays the same game as the males. The violence games made are geared toward the males because that's what people think the males would want while video games that geared toward women like dressed up games (Like Kim Kadashian game which made a crap tons of money), that's what people believe women would like to play. Of course, the power fantasy is gonna geared toward men because not only that's what developers believe to be their primary consumers but also that's what men like for themselves to be portrayed as. Power fantasy for women is not as common because they are not being perceived as playing "those" types of game or their portrayal in term of social norm wouldn't be a badass cursing hero. If there were to be more fanservice for women and power fantasy, then there need to be more women buying and expressing interested in those games that being perceived as being male only. Otherwise, fan service for women would exist but may not be as numerous as the men or may be both power fantasy and fanservice. Notice that games gear toward women or inclusive of women have plenty of fanservice like staring at Kaidan in the butt, Fire Emblem Awakening with male fanservice, yaoi games. You may not think that fanservice doesn't exist, but it's there, it's there as long as they think females are part of their consumers.

Kaidan isn't robbed of agency or personality, solely to serve as a pleasing toy for the player -- if occasional questionable ass-shots of male characters somehow drive the idea that they are being objectified, or in your mind in your mind, then I don't think we have anything more to talk about. In fact, I'm not even sure which shot you are talking about either. I'm going to repeat what I said in previous post. Mass Effect, while being more accessible to people of either gender, it is still overly marketed towards male audiences. The argument here is not that all games try to steer towards men, so in that respect I think it is you who is placing words in my mouth. The argument is about objectification, which is something male characters are, have not, been victimized off.

Once again -- The discussion we are having is not a study of what some people find attractive and how it might differ from the consensus thought of the video game industry. Fan-service is about sexualizing a character, fetishizing them to appeal to an audience -- Objectification is about robbing a character of all agency, solely to serve as eye-candy for the audience. These things are mutually exclusive. I have no doubt, in my mind, that some women might actually fancy Nathan Drake generic hollywood handsomeness, but it doesn't change the fact that it wasn't the intended thought placed into his design. Nathan Drake is build up as an average dude, like you and me, who throws himself into impossible situations, constantly spouting quip and panicky self-affacement, while getting out unscathed. He's an excellent climber, he's badass, and somehow adept with a gun and he's charming, a hit with the ladies. He's the ideal power-fantasy, once again. This is what we are discussing here. It's the processing thought on what goes into how female and male characters are generally designed. If you refuse to acknowledge what is being talked about then we have nothing more to say. We've derailed this thread long enough anyway.

[TheChris92]

Yeah, Konami are the only ones who have thought of their loyal old fanbase the whole way through with Silent Hill, they have never changed their styles for the sake of new fans or teenage nutcases who just wanted some first person shooter game, Capcom should have done the same, its a shame they kept making RE more and more action instead of the old horror style, the first RE's were perfect, it's not quite the same with the lasts ones now.

I do indeed miss Team Silent -- May they rest in peace.

[Battlebloodmage]

Yes, I acknowledge that's how males and females are being designed, and once again, it's because females are not the primary target for those video games, if those video games were geared toward women then there will be characters designed to be fanservice with women in mind. Thane, specifically were made with asking women what they like in a LI.

[TheChris92]

Yes, I acknowledge that's how males and females are being designed, and once again, it's because females are not the primary target for those video games, if those video games were geared toward women then there will be characters designed to be fanservice with women in mind. Thane, specifically were made with asking women what they like in a LI.

What do mean those games? Should I mention examples that branches between genres, because I can do that but I don't see the point in it anymore. Just like this discussion. But thanks for talking though

[Heimdall]

I never actually played the first three Resident Evil titles... This seems like a good place to start!

[TheChris92]

Me too but aren't they going to make any more SH games in the future? I mean they have to!!! They must!!!

I don't know what Konami is going to do with Silent Hill now. I'd hope they'd give it back to Japanese developers. They only seem focused on Metal Gear now that Lords of Shadow is done with. Incidentally, Metal Gear creator Kojima has expressed interest. He did create some trippy stuff with Psycho Mantis in MGS1 that would be cool for Silent Hill. I'd rather see someone else though.
I know a successor to Fatal Frame is in the making now though

[Battlebloodmage]

What do mean those games? Should I mention examples that branches between genres, because I can do that but I don't the point in it anymore. Just like this discussion. But thanks for talking though

Non bro-games, basically, any game that doesn't target bro gamers or target females. Yaoi games are full of fan services because it's made specifically for women. Harvest Moon, in later iterations, are geared more toward women than men now as well, seeing as women sometimes have more LIs than the men. I agree though, this discussion has gone on long enough, let's stop.

[TheChris92]

I never actually played the first three Resident Evil titles... This seems like a good place to start!

It does indeed -- Even if the HD remaster isn't that impressive, it's still a good looking and fun game... if you enjoy old-school survival horror that is.

[Heimdall]

It does indeed -- Even if the HD remaster isn't that impressive, it's still a good looking and fun game... if you enjoy old-school survival horror that is.

I've played most of the Silent Hill games, aside from Downpour. So I do like oldish survival horror.

[Battlebloodmage]

I want Outbreak.

This needs to happen, they could just try to restore the online support and port it it to Gaikai or PSN. I don't even need HD remake. Fan's server is laggy as hell.

[TheChris92]

I've played most of the Silent Hill games, aside from the first and Downpour.

Then I'm sure the controls won't be a surprise to you, which is good.

[Battlebloodmage]

Ahhh... I hope the series will continue.. but only if it does so in the same style and that's great news about Fatal Frame!! I love that game!!

I'm just sad that it's on the Wii U. I don't want to buy a system for just a game. The Evil Within reminds me a lot of Silent Hill. Silent Hill lost their popularity once the transition to action were made.

[The Hierophant]

Still waiting for a numbered RE game in which Hunk's the mc.

[Battlebloodmage]

I totally agree, I never understood why they stopped the online servers in US and Europe while Japan servers continued, I loved playing that game, my sister met her husband through it lol.

Wow, that's actually pretty interesting. I'm pretty sure the Japanese server is also closed. You can play the game on a fan server though if you so choose, but I want the next chapter of Outbreak to come out. On Capcom Unity, Outbreak is one of the most requested game. File 2 wasn't as popular simply because they remove a lot of stuffs that make the first game awesome, and it comes out too soon after the first one. Resident Evil Outbreak File 3 needs to be made though. I want a HD version of the game. If they can't, they should just let other developers develop the game the publish it. I love playing as Cyndi since I could be a total jerk as her, I remember timing an attack where I crouch down and the lion bypass me and hit Yoko player from behind. It was so perfect that it was like a movie.