19 réponses à ce sujet

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

DA:2

Rogue with assassinate, 10-30k assassinate crits, np.
Mages, stack magic super high - fire ball and other offensive spells does like 200-1000 damage.

See the problem here? Spells in DA2 were way too weak. Even using a CCC wouldnt even get you near some of the damage output as a warrior or rogue. Yes - mages also has alot of utility. But if you want to min/max a mage as a damage dealer (atleast in DA2) you were bound for disappointment.

So please Bioware- before you finnish the game, can you add some proper magic scaling or add the spell "Spell might" from DA:O in some form? 

Stacking magic should feel rewarding and increase your damage, not serve as a "minimum req to equip X staff"

[dutch_gamer]

Bioware wants to ship the game. If something wasn't already in the game they aren't going to add it now. They already had to delay the game to "polish" the game some more, adding anything new will only delay the release once again.

[Amfortas]

I do believe that the game needs more buffs and lower resistance spells for example. But buffing anything to DAII rogue levels is a terrible idea. In the name of being the single target dps class, it was absurdly overpowered. Assasinate was the mana clash of DAII, no ability should hit that hard, especially without the brittle combo.

During my rogue playtrough I had to constantly check if I was still playing the game on nightmare. Certainly not the way I think every other class should be balanced.

[Icy Magebane]

Spell damage wasn't that bad in DA2, the rogues were just too powerful.

[In Exile]

DA2's spell damage was pretty powerful - you just had to stack it right and use CCCs, and the focus was crowd control. A rogue with assasinate could 1-hit KO a lot of things, but that was with working off a critical hit from a frozen enemy. The damage boost, plus the critical hit bonus %, led to the obscene single target damage in the 1000s. 

 

Even in DA:O mages weren't about 1-target fighting. It was all about room clearing AOE. 

[Realmzmaster]

The idea behind the rogue is that the rogue is suppose to be the master at killing a single target quickly especially ones that other party members had set up like freezing enemies. The point of the mage was crowd control. If the spells and CCC's stacked correctly the mage could clean out a room of enemies or make very easy for the party to do so. The mage is not about the killing of a single target.

[Gtdef]

Pull of the abyss, gravitic ring

 

FIRESTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORM

 

x3

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

You make some good points and arguments here. But dont you guys feel magic is abit too weak still in DA:2 as an example?
In act 2 with 35ish magic and +fire damage gear, my fire ball did like 200 damage. It felt very underwhelming. 

Im not asking for a uber-buff, I just want to make sure increasing magic makes an actual difference. Each point in magic in DA:2 did what? Increase the damage by 1%? 5-6 flat damage? >.<

[Icy Magebane]

Rogues were OP because of their critical damage multipliers.  They got crit boosts from attributes, equipment, passives, enemy debuffs, and weapon skills themselves in some cases... that doesn't mean that mages were too weak.  The devs just went overboard when they designed rogues.  Assassins also make warriors look ineffective...

[PsychoBlonde]

I do believe that the game needs more buffs and lower resistance spells for example.

What are you BASING this on, exactly?  We don't even know if damage numbers are remotely comparable to DA2 yet.

[In Exile]

You make some good points and arguments here. But dont you guys feel magic is abit too weak still in DA:2 as an example?
In act 2 with 35ish magic and +fire damage gear, my fire ball did like 200 damage. It felt very underwhelming. 

Im not asking for a uber-buff, I just want to make sure increasing magic makes an actual difference. Each point in magic in DA:2 did what? Increase the damage by 1%? 5-6 flat damage? >.<

 

Magic should not be that low in Act 2, even at the start, for any mage that isn't a pure support mage. You're at about level 13-15. That means you should have had 39-45 attribute points (at least) not counting those attribute tomes to distribute, all of which you should have pumped into your magic stat and that starts at circa 12-13. So you should be at 52-57 or so magic. Fireball is also - frankly - a terrible spell in DA2 because it doesn't have CCC potential either as a trigger or a finisher. 

 

With, for example, stagger and chain lighting you could do obscene damage (especially before the later patches nerfed the stagger % of warriors; early DA2 was just a slaughter for a primal mage + warrior combination). Post-patch the go-to should be brittle + e.g. assassinate or burst arrow, because mages turn into more of the alley than the oop in the two-person cross-class combo. 

 

If you want to build a mage that does a lot of damage and don't play on nightmare, then go for abilities that have cross-class finish potential. Rock fist, chain lighting etc. Remember, CCC has 100%-200% damage boosts. 

 

The truth is that DA2 is very party synergy based for those obscene damage #s - even a rogue is underwhelming with assassinate if you're not using brittle and other abilities that lower enemy resistance. 

[Gtdef]

Fireball is a filler spell, essentially useless for damage purposes, only good for unstealthing assassins. I don't even understand why people bring it up as an example.

 

The problem with mage is that the really hard hitting spells are difficult to use. Walking bomb and firestorm. Once you learn how to do it well then just stack mages, bring varric along to exploit brittle, and destroy everything.

 

If you want to play without caring about synergy and party members, then go masteries/critical build and autoattack+kite like an archer. If you learn by heart the weakness chart then he is a very effective autoattacker. But it's pretty boring.

 

Instead of asking for more modifier stacking for mage, ask them to balance critical instead and cap the critical damage, either hard cap or diminishing returns.

[The Baconer]

Instead of asking for more modifier stacking for mage, ask them to balance critical instead and cap the critical damage, either hard cap or diminishing returns.

 

I can perhaps agree with diminishing returns (but as someone else said we'd need actual numbers from the game to see if this is even needed), but damage capping is just a load of **** 99% of the time.

[Gtdef]

I can perhaps agree with diminishing returns (but as someone else said we'd need actual numbers from the game to see if this is even needed), but damage capping is just a load of **** 99% of the time.

 

What 99% of the time are you talking about? Give me examples. Because I have a lot of counterexamples where critical damage stacking makes the game silly and all come from mmos that actually need to be balanced.

 

SWTOR has surge which increases critical damage. The first patch Bioware released for the game nerfed surge massively. I was stacking it for my marauder and after the patch it decreased about 35%.

Lineage 2 without critical damage buffs, an archer class hits for 400-500 damage. With critical damage buffs it hits for 8k. They had to add arrow damage mitigation buffs for 2 expansions to balance archers.

 

Where does your 99% come from.

 

The only problem DA2 scaling has is critical damage, because you can reach 500% with rogue and getting 100% crit chance is child's play. Rogue doesn't only double dip on critical by being a dex/cun character, but he has a talent that doubles the gain from cun, essentially triple dipping. That's what makes rogue 2 hitting assassinates for 40k dmg while the other classes can't hit for 5k.

[Uccio]

I felt my mage was a not a mage but light jester when your awerage muggers from the alley came running through my firestorm AE spell with all buffs. Fear my sparkly lights!!!!

 

Mages really need to get their original juggernaut of the battlefied status back. Warriors and rogues just can´t be as deadly, otherwise magic is useless and fearing it ridiculous.

[The Baconer]

What 99% of the time are you talking about? Give me examples. Because I have a lot of counterexamples where critical damage stacking makes the game silly and all come from mmos that actually need to be balanced.

 

SWTOR has surge which increases critical damage. The first patch Bioware released for the game nerfed surge massively. I was stacking it for my marauder and after the patch it decreased about 35%.

Lineage 2 without critical damage buffs, an archer class hits for 400-500 damage. With critical damage buffs it hits for 8k. They had to add arrow damage mitigation buffs for 2 expansions to balance archers.

 

Where does your 99% come from.

 

The only problem DA2 scaling has is critical damage, because you can reach 500% with rogue and getting 100% crit chance is child's play. Rogue doesn't only double dip on critical by being a dex/cun character, but he has a talent that doubles the gain from cun, essentially triple dipping. That's what makes rogue 2 hitting assassinates for 40k dmg while the other classes can't hit for 5k.

 

It's the game directly punishing you for having a certain playstyle (which in this case would be optimizing for combat), which is atrocious in an PvE RPG. Notice in both your examples the developers tweaking numbers elsewhere - not placing a hardcap on damage that can be done in a single strike. Also MMOs like SWTOR are not even applicable in this case. By their nature, MMOs must fulfill specific demands in their balancing, but this is completely irrelevant to a single player RPG like DA:I.

 

When you're capping damage in your game you're essentially acknowledging the fact that there are numerous problems balance wise, but instead of making an effort to fix these problems you''re opting to throw on a band-aid.

[Amfortas]

The truth is that DA2 is very party synergy based for those obscene damage #s - even a rogue is underwhelming with assassinate if you're not using brittle and other abilities that lower enemy resistance. 

 

I can't say I agree. I barely ever felt the need to use the brittle assassinate combo, because most of the times it's simply overkill. I personally saved those brittles for Sebastian's archers lance and flaming arrow.

[In Exile]

Fireball is a filler spell, essentially useless for damage purposes, only good for unstealthing assassins. I don't even understand why people bring it up as an example.

 

The problem with mage is that the really hard hitting spells are difficult to use. Walking bomb and firestorm. Once you learn how to do it well then just stack mages, bring varric along to exploit brittle, and destroy everything.

 

If you want to play without caring about synergy and party members, then go masteries/critical build and autoattack+kite like an archer. If you learn by heart the weakness chart then he is a very effective autoattacker. But it's pretty boring.

 

Instead of asking for more modifier stacking for mage, ask them to balance critical instead and cap the critical damage, either hard cap or diminishing returns.

 

Fireball gets brought up a lot because fireball was very powerful in DA:O and - more importantly - it was one of the go-to damaging spells in D&D. It's very atypical to have a game where fireball isn't a powerful attack. 

 

Walking bomb is a OP but such a pain to use because of the nightmare FF. Once you master how to lock everything in place with gravitic ring and glyph of paralysis, then you can exploit walking bomb for extreme damage. 

[In Exile]

I can't say I agree. I barely ever felt the need to use the brittle assassinate combo, because most of the times it's simply overkill. I personally saved those brittles for Sebastian's archers lance and flaming arrow.

 

I find brittle/assassinate to be the go-to for any enemy with substantial HP if you're rolling an archer-rogue. With a mage PC, it's all burst arrow + Varric unless something is fire resistant, because archer's lance is harder to aim right. 

[Gtdef]

It's the game directly punishing you for having a certain playstyle (which in this case would be optimizing for combat), which is atrocious in an PvE RPG. Notice in both your examples the developers tweaking numbers elsewhere - not placing a hardcap on damage that can be done in a single strike. Also MMOs like SWTOR are not even applicable in this case. By their nature, MMOs must fulfill specific demands in their balancing, but this is completely irrelevant to a single player RPG like DA:I.

 

When you're capping damage in your game you're essentially acknowledging the fact that there are numerous problems balance wise, but instead of making an effort to fix these problems you''re opting to throw on a band-aid.

 

In only one of the examples they tweak numbers elsewhere cause if they nerf the buffs then they nerf all the classes while the problem is the archer. In Swtor they didn't tweak anything else, they just nerfed critical damage directly.

 

And no, capping scaling is not a band aid. It's fixing a mistake they shouldn't have made in the first place. The problem is not the stat itself, is the class that can exploit it. They decided to make base damage the same for all classes. Compare the warrior weapons to rogue weapons and you'll see that a dagger has about the same dps as a 2h, and rogue can carry 2 weapons. So not only the weapons of the other classes don't do more damage, but rogue is the only class that can reach 100% crit and 5x crit dmg while the warrior can hardly reach a 50% crit and crap crit damage.

 

Rogue did great damage in DAO with crit being default at double damage for everyone. He doesn't need to tripledip and do 6 times every other class' single target damage. Cap crit damage at 200% and there you have it, rogue is still the king of single target without being absurd. None else is affected.