39 réponses à ce sujet

[franciscoamell]

Sacrificing tons of human lives for three ungrateful rude xenophobic people doesn't seem like what a "good" guy would do imo. Even the squaddies tell you to not save them (Liara, Ash and Kaidan at least).

[themikefest]

Why is it paragon? Maybe because 10 000 lives will be saved instead of sacrificed.

 

 I have never saved them when playing as a paragon or renegade. And I never will.

[HTTP 404]

It's paragon because you save more lives if you don't.  If you want to look at simple mathematics.  More people were on that ship than all the alliance ships lost combined.

[Sir DeLoria]

From what I remember 8 ships were lost by the alliance with a crew of ~300 each(correct me if I'm wrong), making the loss about 2400 men. That's a quarter of the Destiny Ascension's crew.

I save her simply because she's a great ship and worth more than 8 frigates or light cruisers.

[KrrKs]

+ Rescuing the council ensures a somewhat stable political situation

[Mordokai]

Paragon and renegade never were about good and evil(well... maybe a little in the third one, but not even then). It's more of a sliding scale of cynism versus idealism. Paragons believe in cooperation, equality, people(of all species) learning from their mistakes... they are idealists. Saving the Council represent a hope that they will learn from their mistakes and not letting your own feelings of petiness overcoming that, no matter how wronged you may feel by them. They are also big on cooperation, so humanity is no more or less worthy to them than any other species.

 

Renegades, on the contrary, are cynics. I could go into what they believe in, but it's basically the opposite of paragons(thank you, Captain Obvious). Also, human supremacists, so if a few thousand aliens burn, what does it matter to them. Shepard even says something along the lines that she won't sacrifice human lives, which shows you that humanity is in the core of their beliefs. That sentiment is expressed often by renegade Shep. Really, they are quite the pricks.

[DeathScepter]

it is not being a human supremacists to sacrifice to remove idiots from Office. Human or aliens, if they are bad at their jobs, I have no problem in accidently removing them from office if given the chance.

[favoritehookeronthecitadel]

At the time I first played ME which was a few years ago, I was pissed off and sick of the council. Time and time again, they didn't listen to me, time and time again, they ignored what I said. They took away my ship when the entire galaxy was at stake. And when that choice came, I didn't know how many people were with the council, all I knew was that Wrex and Ashley were telling me that hundreds of lives weren't worth the council, and I agreed. Not sure how I feel now. You can only get so many chances before you're not worth putting everything on the line for.

[BurningBlood]

A renegade will eliminate their enemies, or any obstructive person or thing, by killing them.

 

A paragon will eliminate their enemies, or any obstructive person, by converting them into an ally.

 

There is a lot of room for grey in between.  Some renegades will kill an enemy even if said enemy is on the cusp of redemption, others will see an easy win and take the new ally; meanwhile even a Paragon of paragons will encounter intractable foes who will simply never be anything but an enemy, and must regrettably be killed.

 

Spoiler

This also explains the colour scheme for the final decision of ME3.

[Mordokai]

it is not being a human supremacists to sacrifice to remove idiots from Office. Human or aliens, if they are bad at their jobs, I have no problem in accidently removing them from office if given the chance.

 

If you'd only be sacrificing three councilors, then I'd be somewhat inclined to agree with you. Three lives usually don't outweigh several hundreds. Even then, the fact that you're sacrificing three most prominent political figures should tell you it's gonna come back to bite you in the ass. I'm not gonna rant how stupid the humanity's grab for power at the end of ME(if the Council is sacrificed) is, but suffice to say, it wouldn't play like that in real life.

 

Also, you have a weird definition of accident. I'm not sure what could count as accident in this case, but having the power to stop the murder and not using it is not an accident.

 

But all of that goes out the window when you account for the fact that DA has a crew of ten thousand. So you're not sacrificing just the councilors, you're also sacrificing the lives of ten thousand soldiers who were just doing their job. Shepard's statement, if renegade option is chosen, implies he values human lives above those of aliens, no matter what their function is. That's where I was aiming with the "human supremacist" of my previous post.

[Lhawke]

It was never about good or evil for my first playthrough as a paragon Shepard. It was about getting Sovereign, who at the time was a pretty scary being.  My Shepard not having the gift of foresight and no idea of geth or exact alliance numbers was confused as to why she being asked this question.

 

Not being able to respond with "That's Hackett's call, I'm opening the relays" She just had to take a wild guess whether or not to risk saving the ship. The council being on board had nothing to do with the decision.

 

It is interesting the two different cut scenes of the battle seem to be labelled attack.evil  and attack.good.

[Undead Han]

If you'd only be sacrificing three councilors, then I'd be somewhat inclined to agree with you. Three lives usually don't outweigh several hundreds. Even then, the fact that you're sacrificing three most prominent political figures should tell you it's gonna come back to bite you in the ass. I'm not gonna rant how stupid the humanity's grab for power at the end of ME(if the Council is sacrificed) is, but suffice to say, it wouldn't play like that in real life.

 

 

I'm glad the humanity über alles ending of ME1 was quietly ignored in ME2. While humanity strongarming its way into a Council seat was also a stretch, it wasn't a game-breaking one. The Alliance imposing an all human Council on the rest of the galaxy however, with only 6 dreadnoughts (as of ME1), was too ridiculous to be carried over into subsequent games. The Big Three (Turians, Asari, Salarians) combined fielded 74 dreadnoughts. The Alliance was outnumbered 12 to 1, and that is only taking into account the species with Council seats, never mind the Hanar or the Elcor or the Volus.

[DeathScepter]

If you'd only be sacrificing three councilors, then I'd be somewhat inclined to agree with you. Three lives usually don't outweigh several hundreds. Even then, the fact that you're sacrificing three most prominent political figures should tell you it's gonna come back to bite you in the ass. I'm not gonna rant how stupid the humanity's grab for power at the end of ME(if the Council is sacrificed) is, but suffice to say, it wouldn't play like that in real life.

 

Also, you have a weird definition of accident. I'm not sure what could count as accident in this case, but having the power to stop the murder and not using it is not an accident.

 

But all of that goes out the window when you account for the fact that DA has a crew of ten thousand. So you're not sacrificing just the councilors, you're also sacrificing the lives of ten thousand soldiers who were just doing their job. Shepard's statement, if renegade option is chosen, implies he values human lives above those of aliens, no matter what their function is. That's where I was aiming with the "human supremacist" of my previous post.

 

 

I was being sarcastic when I said Accident in that post. Humanity's grab for power is important in the long term situation regardless of their relationship to other species.  In the end, Each species would protect their own before they would even protect other species. 

 

Despite Metagaming we do have here, Shepard doesn't have the metagaming to see either way about saving or not saving the DA. Well personally I would roleplay with the idea, the Need of the many outweigh the needs of the few in this regard. So 10,000 vs the countless within the galaxy and no knowledge either choice would work. 

[CDR David Shepard]

It's Paragon because you have the choice and chance to save people, and you take it.

[OPM_Lunacy]

yeah, you 'sacrifce the few to save the many', that's the reason it is a paragon action 

and the council thanks us for sacificing so many humans, to save them...

And in return, they don't help you when you need them the most 

[Jukaga]

If you'd only be sacrificing three councilors, then I'd be somewhat inclined to agree with you. Three lives usually don't outweigh several hundreds. Even then, the fact that you're sacrificing three most prominent political figures should tell you it's gonna come back to bite you in the ass. I'm not gonna rant how stupid the humanity's grab for power at the end of ME(if the Council is sacrificed) is, but suffice to say, it wouldn't play like that in real life.

 

Also, you have a weird definition of accident. I'm not sure what could count as accident in this case, but having the power to stop the murder and not using it is not an accident.

 

But all of that goes out the window when you account for the fact that DA has a crew of ten thousand. So you're not sacrificing just the councilors, you're also sacrificing the lives of ten thousand soldiers who were just doing their job. Shepard's statement, if renegade option is chosen, implies he values human lives above those of aliens, no matter what their function is. That's where I was aiming with the "human supremacist" of my previous post.

 

Just as the Rebels did the Imperial Navy an enormous favor by blowing up Death Star 1, so does Shepard to galactic society in leaving the Destiny Ascension to it's doom. Having a dreadnought that large is an inefficient use of resources. The equivalent cost in frigates and cruisers would be far more useful. The tactical skill of the crew is in question as well. There is no thought in organizing a defense, only using it as a lifeboat.

[Mordokai]

Just as the Rebels did the Imperial Navy an enormous favor by blowing up Death Star 1, so does Shepard to galactic society in leaving the Destiny Ascension to it's doom. Having a dreadnought that large is an inefficient use of resources. The equivalent cost in frigates and cruisers would be far more useful. The tactical skill of the crew is in question as well. There is no thought in organizing a defense, only using it as a lifeboat.

 

DA is worth almost as much as three Alliance fleets combined, if the whole war assets thing from ME3 is anything to go by. If you consider that "innefficient use of resources", well... that's on you and and nothing I say will change your mind, so I won't even try. As for the crew, once again, if you can't find use for ten thousand of military personel that presumably trained and trained well in their roles(be they medics, comm specialits, commandos, techicians... you name it)... whatever I say won't change your mind, so I once again won't try.

[TheEternalStudent]

First, you're actively saving lives
Second, there's a lot more than just the council on board, it's a massive ship, with lots of people
Third, it's the galactic ruling body, soldiers are sacrificing themselves to save civilians, that's kinda how it's supposed to go

[Larry-3]

If you let the Council die you save some frigates, but lose war assets, aliens end up disliking you, and the new Council is many times worse than the old one. Plus you lose Tevos.

If you save them you lose some frigates, but keep a Dreadnought, aliens -- especially turian's -- are more friendly to humans, you get extra war assets, and you get to keep Tevos the asari councilor.

[DuskWanderer]

Because they want people to think human racism is bad, and alienating to the other races. 

 

It is bad, of course. But so is asari racism or turian racism. They just want us to think it's worse coming from humans. 

[Vazgen]

Because they want people to think human racism is bad, and alienating to the other races. 

 

It is bad, of course. But so is asari racism or turian racism. They just want us to think it's worse coming from humans. 

IIRC there are instances of turian racism in the game. And asari racism too, though on a much lesser scale due to their reproductive system. Only the humans end in the position of power such as the final Council decision though and it makes human racism look more pronounced

[Farangbaa]

Because they want people to think human racism is bad, and alienating to the other races.

Haha, what a load of crap. So these red points are supposed to make me feel bad?

And go figure, racism being alienating to those who are the victim of it. These Bioware people must've lost it! /sarcasm

[SporkFu]

yeah, you 'sacrifce the few to save the many', that's the reason it is a paragon action 

and the council thanks us for sacificing so many humans, to save them...

And in return, they don't help you when you need them the most 

Garrus: What was the point of that?

shep: You can't predict how people will act, Garrus, but you can control how you'll respond. In the end, that's what matters. 

[Willowhugger]

Sadly, there's no option for targeting the Destiny's Ascension and eliminating them directly.

I suppose the other species might take that...poorly, however.

 

[Undead Han]

Sacrificing tons of human lives for three ungrateful rude xenophobic people doesn't seem like what a "good" guy would do imo. Even the squaddies tell you to not save them (Liara, Ash and Kaidan at least).

 

Actually Liara and Kaidan usually support saving the Council. 

 

The first Mass Effect game is a little odd in how it handles squadmates weighing in on big decisions, in that it is set up so that one character argues for, and one character always argues against any decision. Kaidan and Liara are the two most paragon characters on the squad and will usually argue for the paragon option for any decision, except under certain circumstances.

 

With Kaidan you have an option to turn him slightly more renegade through dialogue, and that will change how he responds depending on who he is paired with. By default he is actually the most paragon member of the squad, and if you don't alter his personality he'll always voice support for the paragon decision (such as saving the Council) no matter who he is paired with. Liara is the second most paragon member of the squad. She'll always voice support for saving the Council unless she is paired with a more paragon Kaidan. If Kaidan remains the most paragon member of the team and Liara is paired with him, she'll always argue for the renegade option. (killing the Feros colonists, killing the Rachni, killing the Council)

 

The same thing happens when you pair two renegades together. The least renegade of them will argue in support of paragon decisions.