37 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

On nightmare you have to dodge a lot more and run at least a little bit, he has TOO MUCH health and keeps drinking potion. It will take around 3 to 5 minutes at least.

[Lulupab]

Ah I see what you mean, with a respec for several CCs and all the damage spells you could just spam him. I suppose I'm looking for a way to do it effectively without a respec. It's a bit frustrating that on nightmare, force and primal are fantastic for 99.9% of enemies...until you duel the Arishok and wish you had gone elemental instead. Respeccing for one fight kind of spoils the immersion a bit for me.

Well the key is hex of torment (he will take 25% more damage and you will have 100% crit chance against him). Attacks with cold blooded hitting critically over and over really hurts him and I'm not even mentioning the spells that hurt too. Overall if you are a bloodmage you can kill him without any potion and without running around too much, just the occasional dodge and the needed few second kite is all that is needed.

Edit: here is a video of someone doing it without respec, naturally she struggles more but its still very easy. (she doesn't have hex of torment or horror which are key spells)

[tirnoney]

Well the key is hex of torment (he will take 25% more damage and you will have 100% crit chance against him). Attacks with cold blooded hitting critically over and over really hurts him and I'm not even mentioning the spells that hurt too. Overall if you are a bloodmage you can kill him without any potion and without running around too much, just the occasional dodge and the needed few second kite is all that is needed.
Edit: here is a video of someone doing it without respec, naturally she struggles more but its still very easy. (she doesn't have hex of torment or horror which are key spells)

Heh, that's more or less how my duel goes, apart from the glowing white half-naked bit! She still kites him here and there. The problem with the 100% crit is that it requires 5 pts in entropy before you can upgrade which is steep for an otherwise DPS build without respeccing afterwards. Most of my builds rarely have more than 1 pt in horror.

Even the build in the video is an odd one with a few points in arcane, primal and elemental. I suppose if you rely on CCCs a lot you don't really need the +25% to everything you get for a full primal build. Just thinking aloud now, sorry. Thanks for the info.

I suddenly feel inspired to do another nightmare run.

[Basher of Glory]

.... Respeccing for one fight kind of spoils the immersion a bit for me.

 

 

One of my problems with bossfights, too. Although respeccing is kind of legal in DA 2 due to that potion from the Emporium, it feels wrong in some ways.

 

It was always my "favourite" situation to be in an endfight and see, that the boss is immune respectively highly resistant exactly just to the spells I picked.

[BronzTrooper]

Beat the Arishok on hard fairly easily as an archer Assassin/Shadow rogue.  Still quite a bit of kiting, but other than that, it was pretty easy.  My blood mage playthrough was easier, though I had that on normal, so meh.  Might try another playthrough as a blood mage and set it to hard, but idk atm.

[Basher of Glory]

Now I did it with a sword & board warrior. To make the fight a bit more spicy, I stripped off all my armour and equipped the stuff I found during the fights against the Qunari.

I used the Act 1 sword "Desdemona's Blade", upgraded with two cold runes.

 

It was not hard to beat him, but it was certainly hard work, especially compared to the rogue's effortless success.

 

After all these fights, which were merely a recapitulation of all the DA II-games I played since release, I came to the conclusion that they did something to the Arishock. In my memories he was ways harder.

 

Or... the years were not merciful to him

[Magdalena11]

The thing with the Arishok is that you need to play your strengths againsts his weaknesses.  He's weak to magic and, for lack of a better word, cunning, but very strong against a full-out frontal assault.  That's why you see so much kiting.  I usually only bother with Dog as a warrior, since I need a distraction during cooldowns.  Otherwise, as you say, it's over in 3 rounds, even on nightmare.  The melee Elhanan mentioned is an option, because it's pretty challenging.

 

Rogues are no more OP than mages.  I never really used a special strategy (other than not using fire or lightning).  Even on harder difficulties, it's root, damage, run, repeat.  The only class that gives me headaches (and is really phenomenally boring IMO) is warrior.  Set it to music and it's fun to watch (someone else) though.

[Basher of Glory]

Rogues are no more OP than mages.

 

In regard to this thesis I disagree, with due respect.

 

There is one other boss fight in act three, against this demon Hybris.

 

With my rogue / duelist I went in, killed the idiot and headed for the next inn.

With my two warrior builds (2-HD and s& it was a bit more of work but lastly without greater problems.

 

With my mage, who was originally a force mage with curses and arcane stuff it was absolutely impossible.

I had to respec several times until I found a valid combination of a tanking Aveline and a damage dealing Hawke.

 

This is what I mean with "op":

You have one combo of skillsets which are good for every thinkable situation

and on the contrary a mage, who shines in one situation but fails  utterly in the next.

[Lulupab]

You cannot decide something is op or not by simply comparing them in a single boss battle.

Mages have superior area of effect damage, can decimate groups of enemies almost immediately. Warriors are more or less good too but very inferior to mages. Rogues are a joke in this field. They simply have to go through enemies one by one.

Mages have the best disables in the game, can remove threats for extended duration and overall have perfect support. If there is no mage in the party you'll feel the difference whereas if rogues are absent you will only have problems with locked chests.

Rogues are perfect for one thing and that's killing single targets. No one can match their single target DPS.

[tirnoney]

In regard to this thesis I disagree, with due respect.

There is one other boss fight in act three, against this demon Hybris.

With my rogue / duelist I went in, killed the idiot and headed for the next inn.
With my two warrior builds (2-HD and s& it was a bit more of work but lastly without greater problems.

With my mage, who was originally a force mage with curses and arcane stuff it was absolutely impossible.
I had to respec several times until I found a valid combination of a tanking Aveline and a damage dealing Hawke.

This is what I mean with "op":
You have one combo of skillsets which are good for every thinkable situation
and on the contrary a mage, who shines in one situation but fails utterly in the next.

I see this as a game balancing issue. One on one, a rogue is the quickest way to take down a single enemy but for that you sacrifice resilience and to a lesser extent AoE damage. You can either control crowds or take down bosses. Mages are balanced for doing widespread AoE damage, rather than that power being focused on one boss fight. Warriors have higher resilience and can spread damage over a small closed group of enemies. I like having that choice instead of all classes being good at all things. In boss fights I find it's better to slip into more of a support role if I'm playing a mage: keeping the grunts at bay and looking after my warriors and rogues until they can take it down. It also adds a lot of replay value to try each class out.

Having said all that, I've not had huge problems with Hybris when playing a mage. It's just a matter of avoiding his life sucking gravitic ring like spell. Admitedly it's easier with a rogue. But what about the Fell Grimoire battle in Darktown? Since it's a horde + multiple boss battle I find it a lot easier with a mage than with either a warrior or rogue.

When discussing whether classes are OP or not, most people seem to focus only on boss fights which are only part of the picture.

[BronzTrooper]

Hmm... my definition of an OP build/class is one that allows you deal massive amounts of damage (whether single-target, or AoE) while either taking very little damage from attacks, or avoiding them completely.  Warriors tend to only be able to take very little damage from attacks and not deal large amounts of damage, so they are relegated to being the tanks of the party, though there is a noticeable different between the damage output of a S&S warrior vs. a 2-hander warrior.

 

Rogues are OP just as mages are, just in a different way.  They can chew through enemy after enemy and demolish bosses' health with ease.  A dual-wield rogues attacks are amazingly fast and with high dexterity and cunning, the relatively little amount of damage their daggers deal is completely nullified due to the amount of critical hits dealt and how much the base damage is multiplied per critical hit.  This results in enemy after enemy being demolished in seconds.

 

The attacks of an archer rogue are slower, but deal HUGE amounts of damage per strike.  And with high dexterity and high cunning, an archer rogue's damage output is almost unmatched.

 

Mages focus more on AoE and crowd control, allowing them to corral enemies and slaughter them in groups.  Spells like Firestorm, Tempest, Pull of the Abyss, etc. focus on dealing damage and/or denying large areas of the battlefield from the enemies, not to mention their potential to bunch groups of enemies into more manageable clusters.  A Force Mage can toss enemies around like rag dolls and slow them down.  Combine that with the Blood Mage spec with high constitution and upgraded Blood Magic, a mage can literally cast forever and completely demolish hordes of enemies.

 

Mages can also buff their allies and debuff enemies, giving them more versatility than rogues and warriors.  They can set an enemy up to be Brittle, allowing for either a rogue or a warrior to follow up with a shattering ability for a cross-class combo.  Certain spells exploit the warrior's Staggering and the rogue's Disorienting, just as a rogue can exploit a warrior's Staggering and a warrior can exploit a rogue's Disorienting, meaning that while these classes are effective enough as they are, they are much more effective when mixed together.

 

All in all, more rogues and mages are OP in their own ways.  Rogues specialize in focused damage output and single-target elimination, while mages specialize with AoE and crowd control as well as buffing and debuffing.  Warriors are more relegated to drawing enemy aggro and holding it while the rogue(s) and mage(s) focus on making sure the tank doesn't get overwhelmed by killing as many enemies as possible.

 

The main problem I have with this is that it means that warriors are left in the dust in terms of DPS while the rogues and mages speed ahead.  In DA:O, the classes were more balanced.  Rogues would either stick to the shadows and debuff/backstab enemies or fire at them from afar with their bows.  Warriors would draw enemy aggro and be able to pick them off one-by-one or cleave through them like a knife through butter.  Mages were the glass cannons, dealing AoE damage, blocking off routes of passage from enemy use, buffing allies, debuffing enemies, and many other uses in combat.  They were powerful, but fragile, meaning it was up to the warriors and rogues to keep the enemies' attention away from the mages.

 

Each class in DA:O had it's role and could be OP in its own way, but in DA2, rogues and mages were the only ones to deal massive amounts of damage while warriors were left behind to pick up the scraps.  I hope this changes in DA:I.  (mini-rant over, sry about that :/)

[Basher of Glory]

I agree to the last posts. Of course all in this game is a matter of "synergy" and team-work.

 

But:

My statement of the rogue's OP is not based on one specific battle. In any bossbattle I win with ease with a Hawke-rogue and have to work hard with a Hawke-warrior and even harder with a Hawke-mage, especially if the latter has a skill-set which is not good for a particular fight.

 

When you read through the posts in this thread and many others, you will very often see the expression "respec". Sometimes in conjunction with warrior, but mostly concerning the mages.

 

Although I know and like the abilities of a mage - I never had a team without one - I'd rather have a rogue if there had to be a decision.

[BronzTrooper]

I've never respeced any of my Hawkes for any of the boss battles.  I stick with the build I had been using for the whole game and modified my battle-style to fight the bosses.  I never respec due to a certain fight.  I just tough it out with the build I've had all game.  Partially for RP purposes, partially because I want to challenge myself, and partially because I'm too lazy to respec for just one fight.