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[animedreamer]

No offense to the Elf fans (as I count myself as one) but is it possible the Elves fabricated their plight to help cope with their forced captivity as slaves? 

 

What I mean is post slavery and probably during the later parts of it, is it not likely the Elves invented the stories their grand ancestry, mythical abilities, great cities, and of course superior magic? As a mechanism to instill pride in themselves? This probably sounds really mean but it was a thought I had. They can only claim to have had knowledge of their past prior to slavery, but no one really seems to know for sure where any of this supposed culture could have been or is residing now, yet the Elves claim to have inhabited all of the land now called Ferelden at one point or another, and one mentioned one city being sank underground, but point out they used many Eluvians to communicate between cities. 

 

1.) If the Elves could communicate between so many cities with all these Eluvians how did the Tevinters ever take them at all? The Elves would be able to communicate far faster than any Tevinter general could and thus attacking another cities would have been slow and thus leaving the Elves plenty of time to evacuate or prepare a defense.

 

2.) The Brecilian Forest was the sight of a Great War once but it was the humans and elves against another threat, not each other so how longer ago was this, as the tales tell it was longer before this land became known as Ferelden, which implies it was such a long time ago Human and Elves were indeed friends, or allies enough that they allied against some other threat.

 

3.) The Dalish claim they don't work the stone and the earth like the Dwarves do, but yet they claimed to have had huge cities. What would they have built these cities with then? Wood? Mud? I get the idea that they may very well have lived in wooden huts or tree houses, and as such that would have been very hard to fortify and defend since each structure is just a oil and torch away from being taken down.

 

4.) In all that time no other nation is said to have been forcing Elves into slavery/captivity except Tevinter. Which strikes me as kind of odd, was Tevinter the only organized human country? Wasn't Orlai founded after the Andrestian War? I don't know much of the other lands, but does this mean the rest of humanity was roving Barbarian bands? Wasn't that the beginnings of the tribes that would eventually make up Ferelden now? If so is it to much to assume that the Elves lived in similar fashions already since it's kind of hard to see one type of civilization and another not try to mimic it if it possibly means a better way of life and developing into a better society. I mean we know from above that the humans and Elves before slavery lived together or within enough proximity of one another that they knew of one another, let alone became allies enough to fight together.

 

 

[Samahl]

The title of this thread is a bit misleading - from what I can tell of your post, you're postulating that perhaps the elves concocted their utopian homeland in order to build up elven nationalism... which is not the same thing as their plight, as oppression of elves is an objective fact.

Also, having recently listened to the Grand Oak Tree's telling of it, didn't the elves originally own the Brecilian Forest, but had it stolen from them after being killed by human invaders?

[animedreamer]

The title of this thread is a bit misleading - from what I can tell of your post, you're postulating that perhaps the elves concocted their utopian homeland in order to build up elven nationalism... which is not the same thing as their plight, as oppression of elves is an objective fact.

Also, having recently listened to the Grand Oak Tree's telling of it, didn't the elves originally own the Brecilian Forest, but had it stolen from them after being killed by human invaders?

 

I don't recall the GOT phrasing anything like that, after all he wasn't really there for the war that tore open the veil for his spirit to come into the forest and inhabit a tree, he probably saw other misfortunes though, and I have no doubt the Dalish elves roamed that forest for a long time, Zathriens story is evident of that and then some, as it was his curse that drove out the last of the humans that also lived in the forest. Though like I said only before their enslavement was much of the land that is now Ferelden considered Elven lands, there is no way GOT would have been around early enough for that. 

 

Also I changed the title, does that suit you?

[Samahl]

Here's the exact quote:

"That is but a human name, one based upon this land; their claim. A claim they stole from the ancient elves, whom they first killed, and were killed themselves."

Also I changed the title, does that suit you?

It's more fitting, yes.

[animedreamer]

Here's the exact quote:

"That is but a human name, one based upon this land; their claim. A claim they stole from the ancient elves, whom they first killed, and were killed themselves."
 

 

"That is but a human name," which i believe he was either referring to the forest or Ferelden itself, something i noted. "A claim they stole from the ancient elves." This happens twice so it's hard to say what time period he's referring too. "Whom they first killed, and were killed themselves." the last part is kind of murky, as most rhymes are, but the original siege on the Elves wasn't out of bloodlust at least no more than would be necessary to take them into slavery, or dominate them for their resources. However the 2nd attack on the Elves seems more likely as the Exalted March of the Dales was pretty much purely to exterminate the Elves that decided to live outside of human rule and religion.

[Samahl]

I'm pretty sure he was talking about the forest itself. Another quote:

"It was the elves who planted the seeds, raised the forest, saw to its needs. But that was all...so long ago. That they are dead is all I know."

[Fortlowe]

Embellished or took liberties with. Made up, nah. Thedas is Elvhen land... or was. Sure it's home to humans now, but as Sten would say, humans have a "strangely short view of eternity".
 
What I'm more curious about is the part the elves played in their first downfall. It's evident, at least through architecture, that they lived among both humans and dwarves once.

There's also the mystery of where humanity and the Qunari came from, why, they left, and why neither party seems to have record of their original homeland.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

I think all the races and nations in Thedas have embellished their own histories, or demonized that of others. The Orlesian Chantry and Tevinter spring to mind. So sure, the elves are probably guilty of it too.

[LonewandererD]

1) Simply being able to communicate a threat is no guarantee of being able to adequately counter said threat. If your homeland is invaded wouldn't you want to fight, send more troops to the front line maybe? Also, even with prior knowledge evacuations tend to be slow, especially in a time when a lot of the people are on foot; force marching a city full of people not used to marching whilst also lugging their stuff with them and also accounting for the slow and elderly could potentially take up a lot of the military's focus, forces would have to be diverted away from the main lines of defence to allow for the caravans to move unharrased or to act as rearguards to slow down the approaching enemy.

 

2) The enemy that the humans and elves allied to face in the Brecillian Forest was for the most part the Tevinter Imperium. The elves were actually very welcoming of humans at first until they felt the effects of the Quickening and even they weren't hostile, just distant. When the Imperium came to conquer and enslave the local human tribes and elves joined forces against the common enemy as the Imperium didn't discriminate in who they conquered.

 

3) the existence of Varterrals shows that elves are able to much more with wood than what humans could ever do. Is it so hard to imagine cities magically willed into existence through wood and not stone; it is a common fantasy trop to show elves in vast palaces and fortresses made out of nothing but wood. Also elves knew hwo to work with ironbark which is a strong as steel whilst also being lighter and arguably more available as it could be grown, potentially cultivated, and could be harvested without mining or use of advanced tools. Maybe it was simply a case of elves just didn't need stone because their magic and nature-craft surpassed the requirement and uses of it.

 

4) In the times of the fall of the elves the Tevinter Imperium was the only major human power, elves had inhabited the region for thousands of years before the coming of the humans and by the time of their fall many humans were still living in barbarian-esque clan structures. Before the coming of humans the elves were the dominant and most advanced force in the Thedas.

 

A lot of this comes from this http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elf

 

-D-

[Reznore57]

I'm pretty sure the Elves have been the greatest magical empire ever.

Even Tevinter at its peak didn't seem as good as they were.

Tevinter never figured out the Eluvian , also it seems the elven dreamer were able to gain immortality by using the fade.

 

I'm pretty sure we don't know the full story about elven magic ...

The story of Tevinter destroying the elves and managing to enslave them all makes no sense to me at all.

My theory is there was something in Arlathan giving some magical edge to the elves , and somebody/something helped the Humans take the city down .

 

Long story short ; Elves are getting too great at magic.

Something helps humans to destroy their empire.

Humans are getting too good at magic.

Something help humans/elves to destroy that empire again.

[AresKeith]

I agree with the others, they mostly embellished their history instead of making it up

[lil yonce]

1.) If the Elves could communicate between so many cities with all these Eluvians how did the Tevinters ever take them at all? The Elves would be able to communicate far faster than any Tevinter general could and thus attacking another cities would have been slow and thus leaving the Elves plenty of time to evacuate or prepare a defense.

 

3.) The Dalish claim they don't work the stone and the earth like the Dwarves do, but yet they claimed to have had huge cities. What would they have built these cities with then? Wood? Mud? I get the idea that they may very well have lived in wooden huts or tree houses, and as such that would have been very hard to fortify and defend since each structure is just a oil and torch away from being taken down.

 

 

4.) In all that time no other nation is said to have been forcing Elves into slavery/captivity except Tevinter. Which strikes me as kind of odd, was Tevinter the only organized human country? Wasn't Orlai founded after the Andrestian War? I don't know much of the other lands, but does this mean the rest of humanity was roving Barbarian bands? Wasn't that the beginnings of the tribes that would eventually make up Ferelden now? If so is it to much to assume that the Elves lived in similar fashions already since it's kind of hard to see one type of civilization and another not try to mimic it if it possibly means a better way of life and developing into a better society. I mean we know from above that the humans and Elves before slavery lived together or within enough proximity of one another that they knew of one another, let alone became allies enough to fight together.

I think another poster covered the Brecilian forest part, but for the rest:

 

The elves were able to communicate across their empire with eluvians. TME confirms this. It doesn't seem like it was ever a Facetime thing - just a quicker than average message or transport system, so if the Tevinter attack was swift and ferocious, its possible the elves were too  crippled at the beginning of the war to mount a solid counter force. And its possible that Tevinter with its blood magic was flat out too great a match for Arlathan.

 

The Dalish did build nice cities. Halamshiral - a setting in TME described to be rather impressive for its walls IIRC and valued for its position near the Dalish coast - is one of them. When the Orlesians captured it, they kept it, and they still have it as of 9:41 Dragon with no intention of giving it up.

 

And Orlais, instead of calling it slavery, has a servitude system that elves participate in and are forced into. Fiona's experience in this is mentioned in The Calling. Servitude systems similar to Orlais' may exist elsewhere, but as far as we know, no one other than Tevinter practices out-and-out slavery.

 

Now, I do think its possible the elves made up a few things, or filled in the gaps of forgotten history with made up stories. The quickening - elven immortality lost to human contact - could be one of them, it screams elven nationalism to me. Their belief that every elf was once a mage - I don't believe that. There are one or two other things I don't believe about elven lore, but I can't recall them at the moment, so I'll leave it here.

[LonewandererD]

Also Arthlathan was destroyed because it was sunk by extremely powerful blood magic; even with a strong defence (wood or stone) who can stand up to that?

 

-D-

[animedreamer]

Also Arthlathan was destroyed because it was sunk by extremely powerful blood magic; even with a strong defence (wood or stone) who can stand up to that?

 

-D-

That's what they claim, but my point when it came to that is did Arthlathan actually ever exist? How many times would the Tevinter Magisters have had to do this to make so many supposed Elven cities disappear, as others have mentioned there is at least one that had big or impressive walls, but again why are so few still remaining or even wreckage/ruins of others not present? And had such magic existed amongest Tevinter why don't they employ it now? You can't believe they don't use Blood Magic anymore, because they surely do. It all seems kind of fishy to me.

[LonewandererD]

One disadvantage of cities of wood, very flammable. The lack of ruins could simply be that Tevinter Imperium torched them and in the millennia of passing time (in which new civilisations rose) those sites upon which their cities were placed have been built on by new people or have been claimed by nature. The Imperium had blood magic, demons and even rumoured to have dragons in their ranks; such destructive forces at work can really screw up the land and can conceivably wipe civilisations of the map. How much of Rome still exists that hasn't been deliberately preserved. Also, just because we can't find the ruins now doesn't mean they aren't there, if the culture and records were destroyed perhaps we just don't know where to look.

 

-D-

[MissMagi]

"That is but a human name," which i believe he was either referring to the forest or Ferelden itself, something i noted. "A claim they stole from the ancient elves." This happens twice so it's hard to say what time period he's referring too. "Whom they first killed, and were killed themselves." the last part is kind of murky, as most rhymes are, but the original siege on the Elves wasn't out of bloodlust at least no more than would be necessary to take them into slavery, or dominate them for their resources. However the 2nd attack on the Elves seems more likely as the Exalted March of the Dales was pretty much purely to exterminate the Elves that decided to live outside of human rule and religion.

Well, he does say "ancient" elves, so he must be referring to Elvhenan. The Dales didn't fall until 2:20 Glory.

 

And I would also say that it takes a lot of bloodlust to enslave an entire people...

[LonewandererD]

Also consider this, the Tevinter Imperium still uses Blood Magic, this is true but they just aren't up to the task of sinking whole cities anymore. They were severely weakened by the First Blight, and then by the uprising of the Andraste Nations and their various Exalted Marches after that then by the Invasion of the Qunari with whom they are still at war (though the fighting has lessened). Their most powerful Magisters were lost to the Black City and after which they lost contact with the Old Gods from whom a great deal of their knowledge and power was gained. Also slavery, whilst still present, isn't as widespread as it once was so the wholescale sacrificing of slaves to summon up such power isn't feasible and it would be hard to replace the lost slaves who could be better used elsewhere. They also can't use Lyrium en masse as their supply has been greatly jeopradised by the collapse of their Dwarven Empire.

 

They were powerful and unstoppable once, but like the Romans, Ottomans and the British all empires will eventually have its decline.

 

-D-

[Pateu]

Doubtful.

 

Look at the Arcane Warriors. It's something completely unparalleled.

[Mistic]

Of course the elves embellish their history. It's something every culture in Thedas does, even Genitivi admits it. However, I don't think your points are the best to showcase that point,.

 

1.) If the Elves could communicate between so many cities with all these Eluvians how did the Tevinters ever take them at all? The Elves would be able to communicate far faster than any Tevinter general could and thus attacking another cities would have been slow and thus leaving the Elves plenty of time to evacuate or prepare a defense.

 

The Eluvians are really an elven artifact. Even Imshael, one of the Forgotten Ones, was impressed in The Masked Empire. "Always have to respect old elven magic", in his own words. However, that just means that the Tevinter Imperium grew too powerful for the elves. And they lost. That's it. It's not as if in real world history powerful and more advanced empires didn't fall under barbarians. And there's always treason and internal problems that can weaken everyone.

 

2.) The Brecilian Forest was the sight of a Great War once but it was the humans and elves against another threat, not each other so how longer ago was this, as the tales tell it was longer before this land became known as Ferelden, which implies it was such a long time ago Human and Elves were indeed friends, or allies enough that they allied against some other threat.

 

According to World of Thedas, 250 years passed between humanity's arrival and the elves noticing the quickening (and that's assuming the quickening existed in the first place), and even then 2000 years passed between that and the Tevinter-Arlathan war, who happened over 1800 years before DA:O. Is it so hard to believe that in all those years humans and elves didn't coexist or even help each other at one point or another?

 

3.) The Dalish claim they don't work the stone and the earth like the Dwarves do, but yet they claimed to have had huge cities. What would they have built these cities with then? Wood? Mud? I get the idea that they may very well have lived in wooden huts or tree houses, and as such that would have been very hard to fortify and defend since each structure is just a oil and torch away from being taken down.

 

But who claims what about whom? The Dalish themselves don't work the stone because they are nomads. They just don't have the lands, the time or the resources. However, if you are talking about old elves, we know that the former slaves founded Halamshiral in the Dales, and that there are stone tombs under Thedas built for elven nobility, according to TME. Imagining a stone-built Arlathan is not far-fetched. Also, remember that cultures like ancient Mesopotamia (mud, yes), China and Japan (liked wood a lot) didn't use stone as often as the Romans, for example, yet they were great civilizations.

 

4.) In all that time no other nation is said to have been forcing Elves into slavery/captivity except Tevinter. Which strikes me as kind of odd, was Tevinter the only organized human country? Wasn't Orlai founded after the Andrestian War? I don't know much of the other lands, but does this mean the rest of humanity was roving Barbarian bands? Wasn't that the beginnings of the tribes that would eventually make up Ferelden now? If so is it to much to assume that the Elves lived in similar fashions already since it's kind of hard to see one type of civilization and another not try to mimic it if it possibly means a better way of life and developing into a better society. I mean we know from above that the humans and Elves before slavery lived together or within enough proximity of one another that they knew of one another, let alone became allies enough to fight together.

 

Indeed, Tevinter was the only organized human society that existed at the time of the fall of Arlathan. It's not odd; waves of tribes don't develop at the same time. Actually, apart from learning blood magic from the Old Gods, it's stated several times that one of the biggest influences on Tevinter was actually the old Dwarven Empire, so, yeah, mimic the neighbours was in effect for Tevinter.

 

As for Ferelden, yes, they are considered the most barbarian of the barbarians even by other Andrastian nations, since it wasn't born as a united and organized kingdom until 5:42, centuries after Orlais, the Free Marches, the Anderfels, Antiva, Nevarra, Rivain and, of course, Tevinter.

 

The elves had to live as wandering uncivilized tribes at one point in their history; it's just that the little we know about them starts when they already had a kingdom.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No offense to the Elf fans (as I count myself as one) but is it possible the Elves fabricated their plight to help cope with their forced captivity as slaves? 

 

What I mean is post slavery and probably during the later parts of it, is it not likely the Elves invented the stories their grand ancestry, mythical abilities, great cities, and of course superior magic? As a mechanism to instill pride in themselves? This probably sounds really mean but it was a thought I had. They can only claim to have had knowledge of their past prior to slavery, but no one really seems to know for sure where any of this supposed culture could have been or is residing now, yet the Elves claim to have inhabited all of the land now called Ferelden at one point or another, and one mentioned one city being sank underground, but point out they used many Eluvians to communicate between cities. 

 

1.) If the Elves could communicate between so many cities with all these Eluvians how did the Tevinters ever take them at all? The Elves would be able to communicate far faster than any Tevinter general could and thus attacking another cities would have been slow and thus leaving the Elves plenty of time to evacuate or prepare a defense.

 

2.) The Brecilian Forest was the sight of a Great War once but it was the humans and elves against another threat, not each other so how longer ago was this, as the tales tell it was longer before this land became known as Ferelden, which implies it was such a long time ago Human and Elves were indeed friends, or allies enough that they allied against some other threat.

 

3.) The Dalish claim they don't work the stone and the earth like the Dwarves do, but yet they claimed to have had huge cities. What would they have built these cities with then? Wood? Mud? I get the idea that they may very well have lived in wooden huts or tree houses, and as such that would have been very hard to fortify and defend since each structure is just a oil and torch away from being taken down.

 

4.) In all that time no other nation is said to have been forcing Elves into slavery/captivity except Tevinter. Which strikes me as kind of odd, was Tevinter the only organized human country? Wasn't Orlai founded after the Andrestian War? I don't know much of the other lands, but does this mean the rest of humanity was roving Barbarian bands? Wasn't that the beginnings of the tribes that would eventually make up Ferelden now? If so is it to much to assume that the Elves lived in similar fashions already since it's kind of hard to see one type of civilization and another not try to mimic it if it possibly means a better way of life and developing into a better society. I mean we know from above that the humans and Elves before slavery lived together or within enough proximity of one another that they knew of one another, let alone became allies enough to fight together

 

While I'm such much of their old stories are embellished, there are remnants of the ancient Elvehenan all over Thedas.

 

1) The Eluvian network collapsed with the fall of the Arlathan I think. TME talks about it.

 

2) We know the Human/Elven settlements in the Brecilian Forest were long ago, but we don't know exactly what their story is.

 

We know there were elves that lived there since before the dawn of recorded history. We know that later the Imperium conquered it and named it. And we know there were battles. We don't know exactly how those three are related. Arlathan fell around - 900 Ancient, the Imperium invaded Ferelden a couple centuries later so there would have been a couple centuries perhaps before they eradicated all traces of the Elvehenan. We also know that humans and elves lived opposite eachother for two thousand years before the former enslaved the latter. It could have been in either period where a group of elves and humans lived together. We also don't know what destroyed the settlemtns. The Arcane Warrior spirit can only tell us it was a terrible presence, not who or when it happened. It actually goes as far as to say it could have been other humans or it could have been something else. It could have just amounted to the Imperium hunting down some exiled remnants of the Empire they destroyed and the few traitors that also fled and gave them shelter. Not unlike how Kal Sharok wiped out Cal'Hadash for harboring the survivors from Arlathan.

 

3) Well sure now they don't, but I can't imagine how that could imply they never did. The elves built Halamshiral and that was built with stone.

 

4) No. The Imperium was the only human nation at the time. All other peoples were still barbarian tribes. They arose in the first few centuries that followed Andraste's Exalted March.

[Vulpe]

I don't think they made things up. I think they've selectively forgotten the bad things regarding their ancient culture, things that they might have had in common with their conquerors, the bad things they did and I also think they demonized their captors so that they would end up as the good guys that were unjustly defeated by enemies that used forbidden arts.

I have a feeling they, as a society, deserved it and that they actually should have been punished even further.

[Ianamus]

I'm still not convinced that all elves were immortal mages before the humans came. We don't have any evidence for it other than the elves word, after all, and the classist system depicted in the Masked Empire makes it seem unlikely. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if it was only a select few powerful mages who were technically immortal, extending their lives as Zathrian did. 

[Hellion Rex]

I'm still not convinced that all elves were immortal mages before the humans came. We don't have any evidence for it other than the elves word, after all, and the classist system depicted in the Masked Empire makes it seem unlikely.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was only a select few powerful mages who were technically immortal, extending their lives as Zathrian did.

Well, technically Zathrian was only immortal because he was tied to the curse, no? But yes, I do agree that the eldest Dreamers/most powerful mages were the only ones to be able to extend their lives via magic.

[Lulupab]

Elves had something that threatened Tevinter, whatever it was we don't know for sure but there was something and I suspect it had to do with magic.